I have a player who loves to squeeze out all the potential of every class to the point of it being ridiculous: we argue over it, I nerf his combos even if it means departing from the rules as written, and he accepts it. It's part of our fun, shall we say.
Well, now in our high-level Pathfinder campaign he walks in with a bard 6 / Pathfinder chronicler 10 as a potential character he wants to try out (We have a tournament going on in the adventure, where the players have had a chance to create NPC characters that they run during the tournament. They also have had a chance to "test drive" some of them on adventures if they've wanted.) I didn't have time to review his character before the session (was a busy week).
Well, we also have a strong tank/offensive fighter in the group. Well, during the first player's (Pathfinder chronicler's) turn, he has his follower read an epic tale with the Pathfinder Chronicler's Inspire Action effect on it. The fighter uses this free standard action to walk up to the baddie. Then the chronicler himself uses Inspire Action as a swift action (since he is the equivalent of a 14th level bard) to give the 2nd player ANOTHER standard action. He then uses his standard action to activate Inspire Action a THIRD time, so that the fighter now has TWO standard actions. And since two standard actions = 1 full round, the fighter unleashes a full attack! (He does an average of 300 damage.) Two characters later, it would have been the fighter's turn again.
I said oh no, this is crazy: first of all, I should never have let you bring your follower into the dungeon and I told you weeks ago that you can't use the Leadership feat to give yourself allies in combat, and second two standard actions don't equal a full attack -- they equal two individual attacks. They said nyah nyah fine.
So I bring this up to the fine people of this forum. I've already done some searching but I can't find clear answers:
* Can a high-level bard use 2 bardic performances in a round?
* Can a high-level Pathfinder chronicler inspire 2 actions in a round?
* Should 2 extra/free standard actions allow one to have a full-round action?
I am not going to allow him to bring followers again (they will go on strike!). And I am open to his Inspire Action combo working as he intends -- I'd just put more creatures in the encounters that would be rendered trivial otherwise. But it also strikes me as a bit over the top. What do people think?
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1) Yes, but you need a spell for that. Virtuoso Performance lets you use 2 performances at once if you spend 3 rounds of performance, and a Shadowbard supplies its own performance.
2) Probably not, since he can't cast Virtuoso Performance unless he has 10 levels in bard. This assumes that Inspire Action, like almost all other forms of bardic performance, must be maintained to have effect. However given that the effect appears to be instantaneous it might actually work more like Weird Words from the Sound Striker, which resolves within the bard's turn (allowing you to start a second performance after resolving weird words). There were some concerns about using weird words multiple times in a round and it was revised to require a standard action, thus preventing you from using your standard, move, and swift actions all to use weird words. I would recommend a similar treatment for Inspire Action in a home game - allow only one use of that particular performance in a round, but they can start a different type of performance after using Inspire Action if they wish.
3) No. As far as I know, the only relevant rules is: "In a normal round, you can perform a standard action and a move action, or you can perform a full-round action. You can also perform one swift action and one or more free actions. You can always take a move action in place of a standard action." There is no rule allowing you to substitute other types of actions - while you get a choice between taking a move and a standard or a full-round, you can't actually substitute a move and a standard action for a full-round action, and therefore also cannot substitute two standard actions for a full-round action. That said, being able to make two attack actions at full BAB is still very nice.
Welcome to a high level Pathfinder Chronicler. The more friends they can be, the better (worse?) this gets. As far add I know, this is a perfectly legal build.
I'm pretty sure Std. Action + Std. Action can equal full round. Not 1 round, but full round... Yes?
Honestly, this trick only works with martials because that pesky one spell per round rule still applies, and I'm totally ok with martials getting a nice thing of it takes an entirely seperate character + cohorts to pull off.
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1) Actually they can start THREE performances in one round. One standard, one move, and one swift. But as has been pointed out starting a new performance immediately ends the active one (barring some spell or ability that says otherwise).
2) Yup. 9th level chroniclers are crazy good. Starting a new inspire action performance isn't an issue since the action provided by the first is already done.
3) There's no rules support for combining two standards to make a full. If you want to allow it by house rule that's fine. But going back to the "ending a performance" issue: The Chronicler inspires action as his standard action. The recipient has to immediately use that standard action. If they don't use it it is lost when the next thing happens, whether it's another performance, the Chronicler moving, or just ending his turn. That's what "immediate" means. No saving up.
Thanks all! These explanations seem like a fair way to go about it. Oh, and yes he can do THREE Inspire Actions in one round, oh gevay.
I have not had an issue of the casters eclipsing martials in this game, and so I was inclined to not allow a full attack anyway.
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Given what happened to weird words, I strongly believe that the intent is not to allow multiple instantaneous bardic music effects in a round. I expect that if the dev team were to address the issue they would confirm/solidify Tindalen's interpretation that this is a special, standard action use of bardic magic. Again, this is exactly what happened to weird words, which was initially written in a way that could allow three uses in a round.
I think that's a bit of overkill in this case, which is why I suggested allowing it to be used as a move or swift action but still only once per round.
I agree that it potentially could be a problem. But in this group with these characters, and considering that it's at 16th level, I feel it's okay to have the Pathfinder chronicler, through his action economy, be able to carry out three melee attacks via another character. He finds it fun and I think I can adjust the encounters to compensate.
But I will impose another limit -- he cannot use that standard action to allow another character to have more than one extra ability to cast a spell.
Well, this discussion on the thundercaller bard, which got 17 FAQ votes but was unanswered by the devs, discusses the issue of whether a high-level bard can carry out 3 bardic performances with instantaneous effects in one round.
I am now inclined to go by the quoted language from the CRB Bard description, "Each round, the bard can produce any one of the types of bardic performance that he has mastered, as indicated by his level." I must assume that the word "one" here was added for a reason, which is to prohibit a bard from using 2 different bardic performances in a round. One might argue that this still allows a bard to perform the same "type" of bardic performance more than one time in a round, but then why include this sentence at all? And it isn't clear to me that the corner case of an instantaneous-effect bardic performance is considered here. Besides, it would be a gaping exception that seems to violate the spirit of the rule.
I would really like an answer from the devs as to whether a high-level bard can perform bardic performance more than one time in a round. Is this FAQ worthy, or has this been answered somewhere I don't know about?
Well, my current decision is to allow one performance per round, but Inspire Action can be used to grant a free standard action of any kind, including casting a spell.
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How so? The Duettist's familiar gains the ability to produce a bardic performance either instead of or in addition to the one produced by the bard. That seems plenty functional.
Thanks for linking that thread, Rot Grub. I'd vaguely remembered that conversation about bardic performance with instantaneous resolution but thought it was related to the sound striker & the FAQ I linked so I couldn't find it.
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Owner - D20 Hobbies
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How so?
Symphonic Familiar ... At 14th level ... two performances ... 3 rounds
If you could just do two performances, then this 14th level ability allowing two performances to be performed for the cost of 3 rounds is a horrible high level ability.
If you can't do two performances, then this is a reasonable cost of 1 additional round in exchange for doing something you can't normally do.
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@Weirdo: The original version of Weird Words also explicitly limited it to using a Standard action that could never get shorter.
@James Risner: Without the full text, it is unclear if they are the same thing, or if Symphonic Familiar allows the Bard to use two Bardic Performances at the same time, which is also provided by a spell, virtuoso performance, mentioned previously in this thread.
So, normal Bard:
Perform as a Standard, perform as a Move, perform as a Swift.
Consecutive, any lingering effects from a previous performance ending when the next one is started.
Duettist Bard:
Perform two Bardic Performances at the same time, both having normal effects, for an extra round of performance.