I wanted to take a moment to share my version of the 5E Alchemist. Since 5E doesn't have 6-level casters, I opted to make it a 5-level caster.
I basically took a mix of the paladin (believe it or not) and warlock to create the abilities.
Haven't had a huge amount of testing yet (we've only played two sessions of our RotRL game post-conversion) but so far so good.
https://drive.google.com/open?id=1QrzQDug1r3VIB1DniwDinpLsRGrVEZWsCx1tCL-Mz zU
It looks pretty good.
Does it have two spell lists? One for infusions and one for extracts? Or is it two lists of spell lots?
The spell list you have looks a little limited.
Also, are your archetypes missing features at 14th level?
I like how you combined the Str, Dex, & Con mutagens into one mutagen. Elegant and streamlined.
It's a single spell list that can be used for both infusions and extracts.
I tried to stick to what Alchemists had access to in Pathfinder, but a lot of those spells changed or don't exist (yet) in 5E. I'm working with the player to expand it as we go. (He successfully lobbied for Wind Walk last session.)
Yes, they are. Somehow both my player and I missed that. D'oh.
Thanks. Though I'm thinking about dropping the number of mutagens to once per short rest. I originally set the number based on a druid's wild shape, but while wild shape offers a lot of versatility in the shapes, it prevents spellcasting while the alchemist's mutagen just makes him better at what he already does. There's no reason (outside of vulnerability to spells that target current HPs) for him not run around mutated whenever possible.
Yeah, I think 1 mutagen per short rest is a good idea. Nice and easy that way. I also like how you gave it a separate pool of hit points. That's really cool. The disadvantage to Int and Cha checks can be a big limiting factor for someone who makes lots of Arcana and Investigate checks. Maybe throw in some disadvantage on Wis checks (except Perception and Survival) too? Are there a lot of Animal Handling, Insight, and Medicine checks in your games that would be affected?
Well, the pool of HP falls in line with the way shapeshifting works in 5E, and it also felt like a nice way to toughen them up without stepping on the barbarian's toes and giving them damage resistance.
We haven't seen any yet, but the Wisdom check thing is a good idea (and the exceptions for Perception and Survival work with the bestial feel of the mutated form.)
I figure disadvantage on Animal Handling would represent animals being freaked out a bit by the mutagen.
But if there aren't a lot of Wisdom checks in your game, not worrying about it might be easier.
So here's my thoughts for missing the 14th level power:
Path of Arcana
Resilient Mind: Your continued striving for enlightenment grants you resistance to effects that attempt to alter your mind. You gain advantage on saving throws against charm, confusion and fear effects.
Path of Antimony:
Resilient Body: Your control of your physical form grants you resistance to effects that alter your body. You gain advantage on saving throws against effects that would change your physical form, such as polymorph, petrification and disintegrate.
Hey, cool stuff. I may have missed something, but how do you throw more bombs? They will need at least two bombs the keep up with damage feats and fighting styles (around 20 damage a hit before spells). Right now you cap out at 17 average damage at 17th level, and you don't have the casting ability to make it up.
I guess what I'm saying is you need resource limited bombs and 9 levels of casting, or to be more combat effective.
The base bombs follow the same damage progression as cantrips. Also, the Infusions give them more casting ability than a standard 5-level caster. At 17th level, the effective slots for an alchemist would be 5/4/4/4/2/1/1/1/1 whereas a standard caster 4/3/3/3/2/1/1/1/1. So they actually have more slots, effectively (though the fact that they have to pre-select 1 spell of each level at the start of the day, including all their 6th+ slots, balances that somewhat.)
Path of Arcana alchemists can take the Fast Bombs discovery to throw an additional bomb as a bonus action. The assumption is that Path of Antimony alchemists will be mutating and meleeing, with bombs being more of case-by-case sort of thing.
However, I am discussing some tweaks with my alchemist player, as he feels the class is a little weak as-written. So any suggestions would be welcome.
Part of me is tempted to just start fresh with a 9-level caster (because the spell slot difference between the class and a standard caster starts out behind and then leaps ahead, which leads to some funky balance issues) while retaining bombs as a separate class ability, rather than a cantrip (just because, flavor-wise, bombs as cantrips seems weird, as well as needlessly repetitive of existing cantrips). As 9-level casters, they'd need access to cantrips, but giving them access to utility ones would still keep with the flavor.
I'd suggest looking at the warlock and eldritch blast cantrip and the boosts the warlock can get through invocations and the hex spell.
1st level: 1d10 + 1d6 from hex (9 average)
2nd level: 1d10 + 3-ish (Int mod) + 1d6 from hex (12 average)
4th level: 1d10 + 4-ish (Int mod increase) + 1d6 from hex (13 average)
5th level: 2d10 + 8 + 2d6 (26 average)
8th level: 2d10 + 10 (another Int mod increase) + 2d6 (28 average)
11th level: 3d10 + 15 + 3d6 (41 average)
17th level: 4d10 + 20 + 4d6 (56 average)
Assuming all hit, of course. And remember, the extra damage die from hex is multiplied on a crit, too.
The Spell Sniper feat would also be useful. And with the Repelling Blast invocation, you could be pushing your opponent 10 feet back per hit. This might reposition your opponent into a hazard or far away enough that it cannot engage in melee for a round.
Hunter's mark might be more flavorful than hex for an alchemist, but provide the same damage boost. It's what makes rangers so amazing.
EDIT: Have you checked out my version of the alchemist? It's based on the warlock chassis, since I figured the alchemist could make infusions all day, he would just need a short rest to prepare them. I need to add a lot of flavor to my version, though. Yours has a ton of great flavor! :-D
I would go the 9th level casting route, I think it works well for Bard in 5e.
SmiloDan wrote:
EDIT: Have you checked out my version of the alchemist? It's based on the warlock chassis, since I figured the alchemist could make infusions all day, he would just need a short rest to prepare them. I need to add a lot of flavor to my version, though. Yours has a ton of great flavor! :-D
I have looked at yours, and I think it does its job very well.
I actually bounced between the Warlock, Druid and Paladin when trying to get the balance right for my alchemist. I didn't want it too close to any of those, though, because my goal was to make it very much its own class (though I may have outsmarted myself with the Infusions thing.) I appreciate the kind words, though.
hiiamtom wrote:
I would go the 9th level casting route, I think it works well for Bard in 5e.
My only concern would be it outshining the bard by making another full healer/support class that can also drop a bunch of damage with its bombs and/or mutating. Though I guess I'm kind of already there with the current one, the spell progression is just wonky.
I'm thinking if I do that, I'd change the bombs (and the enhancements) to d6s, though start at 2d6 (the same as an acid flask or holy water) building up to 5d6 at 17th level. Which ends up being about the same average damage as a 4d8 cantrip (17.5 vs 18) and slightly less max damage, but the alchemist can still take fast bombs to do it twice (or mutate and tear things up in melee, depending on the path.)
That would make a first level enhanced bomb about on-par with most first level spells. As the spell levels increase, the damage spells of their respective levels would pull away, but the alchemist would have a lot more versatility in being able to prepare a full allotment of utility/buff/healing spells but dump them for damage and a potential debuff at any time.
Do you think the alchemist needs a bomb cantrip, like the warlock has an eldritch blast cantrip?
And then there can be discoveries (instead of invocations) to grant special abilities to the bomb cantrip, like splash damage, increased range, different damage types, cloud effects, increased damage, continuous damage, etc.
If you're talking about yours, my answer would be "maybe?". I mean, that's obviously the route I went with mine (though I made bombs a class ability rather than a cantrip, but making bombs a cantrip would be more in-line with the base rules.) but if bombs aren't the main feature of your version on the alchemist, I would say it's not necessary.
In my version, I gave out a bomb ability that applies to cantrips and included several damaging cantrips on the alchemist spell list. That way, some alchemists could specialize in acid, some in fire, some in cold, and some could pick up several damaging cantrips if they wanted a variety of damage types.
Okay, here's Alchemist Mk 2. Full 9-level caster. I kept the bombs at d8s, but gave them Intelligence to damage (and to-hit, if they choose) at 2nd level (the same level 99.9% of alchemists take Agonizing Blast) to help with the damage issue.
Re-worked a bunch of the Discoveries (and turned some of "learn this spell" Discoveries to just added spells on the spell list) and dropped the damage loss off everything except Madness Bomb and Enhanced Splash Bombs.
My only real issue now is the two paths tend to mirror each other a little too much, just mental/caster vs. physical.
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1T1Vm8z60ITQyH1X0F0brW7mGqaqny8LxD77Mhxw yFDk/edit?usp=sharing
Catalyst needs more detail around preparation and DCs and etc. but that's more rounding out the class text.
I'm guessing your intent, but I would label the whole section "Alchemy" or "Enhanced Alchemy" or something similar with the format like a wizards Spellcasting. Then under the larger headline you can add names like "Preparing Catalysts" instead of preparing spells, and "Forming Extracts" instead of spellcasting ability, and add some detail for how cantrips and ritual casting are performed with alchemy (along with using an alchemist's kit for material components and not needing a spell focus). It really needs a lot of cleaning up right now because it is confusing. Maybe infusions work like ritual casting? Maybe cantrips are some sort of "instant alchemy" or "swift alchemy"?
Enhanced bombs are very powerful for level 1... but using spell slots it is probably OK. I would make it more clear is burns the spell slot. You probably want level + INT catalysts anyways so they prepare like a wizard.
Maybe delay discoveries until level 3... with enhanced bombs there is just so much front loaded in the class. It also lines up with the alchemist's paths broadening the options.
Burning bomb should maybe be where the bomb does 2d6 or 1d12 damage per damage increase instead of front loading it with an extra 1d8.
The "gain skill and proficiency" discoveries are a bit bland and need a little oompf either in broader spell selections or in a flavorful ability relating to those skills.
I'll try to read more later.
Yeah, it's a little confusing with Catalysts, Infusions, and Extracts. I understand they're a legacy from the PF alchemist, but one of the design features of 5E is the standardization of spellcasting. For example, all full casters get cantrips (no divine orisons), they all use the same spell slots per day mechanic, etc.
Maybe you can use the terms Catalyst, Extract, and Infusion in discoveries?
And you can use the Warlock distribution of invocations for your pattern of discoveries. That prevents front loading at 1st level.
The alchemist needs resistance to poison damage.
Mutagen should give an AC boost so that wearing armor can make the bonus cumulative. I would probably give the bear totem resistance though. Maybe instead of a separate HP pool, when he hits 0 the mutagen ends and the alchemist gets some HP back (enough to escape or change plans).
And, yeah, I don't get the catalyst/infusion.extract thing. It needs some work clarifying it.
Maybe some discoveries can incorporate those suggestions of hiiamtom's?
Like "Escape Death"
While your mutagen is active and you reach 0 hit points, your mutagen ends and you gain 3 hit points per level, Advantage on Dexterity checks to escape bonds and squeeze through tight spaces, and a 10 foot bonus to your speed for 1 minute?
hiiamtom wrote: Catalyst needs more detail around preparation and DCs and etc. but that's more rounding out the class text. DC is listed in the class description for Discoveries. Unless one slipped in there, none of the Alchemist spells actually have saving throws, so it doesn't need to be under the Catalyst section.
Quote: I'm guessing your intent, but I would label the whole section "Alchemy" or "Enhanced Alchemy" or something similar with the format like a wizards Spellcasting. Then under the larger headline you can add names like "Preparing Catalysts" instead of preparing spells, and "Forming Extracts" instead of spellcasting ability, and add some detail for how cantrips and ritual casting are performed with alchemy (along with using an alchemist's kit for material components and not needing a spell focus). It really needs a lot of cleaning up right now because it is confusing. Maybe infusions work like ritual casting? Maybe cantrips are some sort of "instant alchemy" or "swift alchemy"? I agree that some of the text needs cleaning up. Basically, Catalysts are just a flavored term for "spell slot" and reagent is a flavored term for "Prepared Spell". The alchemist's casting should work exactly like a wizard, it's just all done via mixing substances together rather than waving your arms around and chanting.
Infusions are a little different, in that the spell is essentially "pre-cast" at the start of the day, but the alchemist can then hand it off to any ally to apply whenever they see fit, but they use the same spell slots as Extracts.
Quote: Enhanced bombs are very powerful for level 1... but using spell slots it is probably OK. I would make it more clear is burns the spell slot. I'll work on the wording. And originally they couldn't do enhanced bombs at level 1, because they didn't have spell slots yet, but then you guys convinced me the alchemist should be a full caster. :P
Quote: You probably want level + INT catalysts anyways so they prepare like a wizard. That's already in there.
Quote: Maybe delay discoveries until level 3... with enhanced bombs there is just so much front loaded in the class. It also lines up with the alchemist's paths broadening the options. This is probably a good idea. When I originally wrote up the class I had Discoveries start later, but when it was a half-caster it felt like they needed something at level 1.
Quote: Burning bomb should maybe be where the bomb does 2d6 or 1d12 damage per damage increase instead of front loading it with an extra 1d8. This one doesn't bother me. The difference between 2d6 and 2d8 is 2 points of average damage and fire is the most common resistance encountered.
Quote: The "gain skill and proficiency" discoveries are a bit bland and need a little oompf either in broader spell selections or in a flavorful ability relating to those skills. This I would agree with, though they're not much different from the Warlock's Beguiling Influence.
Quote: The alchemist needs resistance to poison damage. They do. Resistance at 2 and immunity at 10.
Quote: Mutagen should give an AC boost so that wearing armor can make the bonus cumulative. I would probably give the bear totem resistance though. Maybe instead of a separate HP pool, when he hits 0 the mutagen ends and the alchemist gets some HP back (enough to escape or change plans). With the mutagen I was trying to channel wild shape, with a touch of barbarian. If you give it bear totem resistance, you've basically stacked a barbarian on a top of a full caster.
I don't like the idea of a cumulative AC bonus (and can't think of an instance of that, outside certain spells like Shield and Shield of Faith) but I could see the merit of your AC being either 13+Dexterity or your current AC, whichever is higher.
SmiloDan wrote: Yeah, it's a little confusing with Catalysts, Infusions, and Extracts. I understand they're a legacy from the PF alchemist, but one of the design features of 5E is the standardization of spellcasting. For example, all full casters get cantrips (no divine orisons), they all use the same spell slots per day mechanic, etc.
Maybe you can use the terms Catalyst, Extract, and Infusion in discoveries?
And you can use the Warlock distribution of invocations for your pattern of discoveries. That prevents front loading at 1st level.
As I said, I need to work on the wording. I do agree it's confusing.
I'm trying to make the alchemist feel like its own class, rather than just a wizard variant, or whatever, even if it functionally uses the same mechanics, for the most part.
The Warlock progression is what I followed originally (before the original class was lacking something at 1st level). I'll give it another look over.
Quote: Like "Escape Death"
While your mutagen is active and you reach 0 hit points, your mutagen ends and you gain 3 hit points per level, Advantage on Dexterity checks to escape bonds and squeeze through tight spaces, and a 10 foot bonus to your speed for 1 minute?
This would basically give them most of the effects of the mutagen for a second time, only with advantage on Dexterity checks, rather than a damage bonus. Doesn't really seem to fit, IMO.
One thing they can always do, if they find themselves in trouble, is pop their second mutagen on the next turn, and if they have Invigorating Mutagen, it gives them a HP restore while they're at it.
In the two sessions so far, the alchemist burned through one mutagen, popped his second and then didn't run out of that one until they cleared the dungeon, so he never actually took any direct HP damage.
OK, cool.
I think a lot of the spell casting flavor is found in preparing spells. For example, the wizard memorizes arcane words and gestures. An alchemist could mix reagents and catalysts. Stuff like that.
But it sounds like your playtest is going great! :-D As long as your player is having fun, you're doing a great job! :-D
Well, that was the idea.
Catalyst=Spell Slot
Reagent=Prepared Spell
Extract=Cast Spell
The only thing that's different is Infusions, which basically allow the alchemist to pre-cast a spell (using one of his spell slots) to have it function as a temporary potion.
Like I said, I need to work on the wording to make it clearer.
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