Season 9 - Round 2 Exit Poll


RPG Superstar™ General Discussion

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

I believe the stars are right for this unveiling.

If I am in the wrong, may the Outer Deities of Moderation cast this thread in hellish banishment before anybody gets hurt :-)

In the immortal words of Jacob W Michaels, who did this great public service in previous seasons.

A Superstar tradition: List what you're voting for (up to 8 this round) so we can get some idea where things stand.

Keep in mind that just a fraction of the voters will contribute to this, so it's not a perfect predictor.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

I had 10 maps on my Keep list.

Of those, 6 were immediately chosen for advancement with no hesitation, mostly because I really wanted to go adventure in the locations they depicted.

- Aberrant Excavation
- Black Dragon's Retreat
- Brokeferry Bridge
- Feedlot-CL477
- Meandering Oasis of Nex
- Ruined Mountaintop Temple of Hei-Feng

I then spent more time considering the respective strengths of the following contenders.

One rose quickly above the others, leaving the other 3 vying for my last vote.

- Abaddon Breach Temple

To choose between those last 3 Keep maps, I could not do it on this round's offers alone and went back to have a look at their Round 1 items.

Because of the mojo the designer demonstrated in the item round, I chose as my last vote :

- Flintyreach Cliff Harbor Ascent

I deeply regret not having 2 more votes available. If I did, these would have gone to Desecrated Sanctuary and Ustradi Sunken Ruins (Mana Wastes). I think those maps are also great contenders for this Round 2's top 8.

Best of luck to everyone.

PS : If someone can set up a GoogleDocs spreadsheet with this poll's results, that would be great :-)

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32 , Champion Voter Season 6, Champion Voter Season 7, Champion Voter Season 8, Champion Voter Season 9

I voted for 8 maps whose designers had Round 1 items I voted for.

EDIT: Not a fan of the polls, as they are rarely accurate.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Guess that a spreadsheet will not be needed after all :-P

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Rusty Ironpants

I would not mind if the exit polls died an ignominious death. As a contestant last season, they were super-stressful.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Petty Alchemy

I think they are generally conducted via PMs, after opening a topic such as this one so that people are aware who to send their picks to so that (s)he may compile it on a privately shared spreadsheet.

It's good to have that sort of data in an opt-in fashion, so people can avoid it and the stress it may cause if they so choose (and I definitely wouldn't opt-in whilst competing).

Or at least I'd try not to. I compiled a spreadsheet using Day 1 indicators to predict the Top 16 (based on judge reviews, # of times favorited, # of posts, preference for cats/dogs). It's difficult to suppress that interest.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka motteditor

Back in the day, the exit polls were done publicly.

They are/were indeed very stressful, though a smart contestant learned to just ignore them (since he/she should be working ahead on the next round(s) regardless of what the poll is showing). They also weren't really a good sample size -- so in the early rounds you could get some idea of who was likely to advance by looking at the top of the poll, but the bottom was close enough you couldn't really get an idea.

The smaller the number of options, the worse the poll did too. IIRC, Robert Brookes was leading the poll by a fairly wide margin in the adventure pitch round of 2014, but Victoria Jaczko went on to win (I think that was the year the poll was very non-indicative of the final result, but I could be wrong on that).

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2015 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Rusty Ironpants

Yeah, last season they were public threads that were open during the voting period. Just another factor to crank up the stress level for contestants.

edit: Jacob, put in the "dumb" category then, I couldn't resist looking at them! :)

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

Yeah, there's no policy against them happening during the voting period.

They aren't particularly predictive beyond the top few in each round, and those are always pretty obvious anyway.

I think it might be helpful to drop the spreadsheet and "exit poll" ideas, but keep a thread where people can just say who they voted for. It's fun to do that, and if it's seen more as a way to express support than to tally up votes, it might be better for all concerned.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka motteditor

Oh, I looked at them all the time too, Russ. But it really did no good. On one hand, you were doing well, which was great and you were pumped for the next round.

Or you were doing poorly, got discouraged and didn't work ahead -- in which case you were at a significant disadvantage if you did advance and thus more likely to be eliminated in the following round.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Mark D Griffin

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OMG, number of times favorited?!? I never even thought of that, now I have something new to obsess over in round 3.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Petty Alchemy

I was thinking of Season 8's Item Exit poll, which was done by PM.

You are right though, those exit polls are generally pretty inaccurate.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Thrawn007

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mark Griffin wrote:
OMG, number of times favorited?!? I never even thought of that, now I have something new to obsess over in round 3.

It was bad enough looking at post count going "my map isn't being talked about as much as others. Is that good or bad?"

I think if we really work at it, we can come up with a ton of things to stress out about.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Petty Alchemy

Favorites may not have been significant predictors, so don't worry about them.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 9

3 of my Eight advanced.

Sovereign Court Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Six of the eight maps I voted for made it through, and I'd say I'm not overly surprised by the 16 that got into round 3, they're all great. Okay, actually there's one I would have swapped out for another that didn't make it, but that just proves that there were many great maps, a great round! Surely the bards will sing of Season 9 for years to come.

Sovereign Court Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9

Captain Phoenix wrote:
Six of the eight maps I voted for made it through, and I'd say I'm not overly surprised by the 16 that got into round 3, they're all great. Okay, actually there's one I would have swapped out for another that didn't make it, but that just proves that there were many great maps, a great round! Surely the bards will sing of Season 9 for years to come.

By "bards" I mean Brigg ;-)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

7 of my 8 advanced.

The one which did not was the one that got my last vote. It was a bit too difficult for most voters to comprehend and appreciate I guess :-/

The two alternates I had for this spot advanced too.

So, I am pretty happy with the results overall, even if there is one entry I really did not expect to see in the top16.

Pretty excited to see all your monsters soon :-)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

R D Ramsey wrote:

Yeah, there's no policy against them happening during the voting period.

They aren't particularly predictive beyond the top few in each round, and those are always pretty obvious anyway.

I think it might be helpful to drop the spreadsheet and "exit poll" ideas, but keep a thread where people can just say who they voted for. It's fun to do that, and if it's seen more as a way to express support than to tally up votes, it might be better for all concerned.

Actually, I was told that this kind of thread had to wait till after the voting period ended. And I must say that, with the flurry of DQs that happened this round, I felt it better not to twist the knife by launching this thread too soon. But then it ended up so close to the reveal that nobody even cared ;-P

I still believe that telling people how we went about voting and what we voted for in the end is valuable both for the following rounds and for the future seasons of RPGSS.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Just noticed that none of the alternates made it to top16.

Dedicated Voter Season 9

1 person marked this as a favorite.

8/8 :)

Definitely looking forward to the monster creation round; I love how much room Owen left for them to play with.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Trekkie90909 wrote:

8/8 :)

Definitely looking forward to the monster creation round; I love how much room Owen left for them to play with.

Yes. I am deeply envious of this near-absolute freedom and I hope it will be preserved in coming seasons, just in case ;-)

Marathon Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Clouds Without Water

The Raven Black wrote:
R D Ramsey wrote:

Yeah, there's no policy against them happening during the voting period.

Actually, I was told that this kind of thread had to wait till after the voting period ended.

It's definitely ok to say who you voted for during the voting period. At least it has been in every previous RPGSS. And that's all this kind of thread needs to be. Who you voted for and maybe why, if you want.

The polls have run during voting in past years, but as I said earlier, I don't think there's much value in looking at them as "exit polls". Just as expressions of support.

It's probably a (very) bad idea for the contestants to say who they voted for as that can easily be taken the wrong way, but the rest of us are free to do so.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

A study of correlation between judges' recommendations and votes' results in the round 2 :

Category A : Strong recommendations = 9 maps, all went to Top 16

- Feedlot CL-477 : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Abandoned Shory Botany Laboratory : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Ruined Mountaintop Temple of Hei Feng : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- The Grimple Playhouse : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Brokeferry Bridge : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Aberrant Excavation : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Ice Dam : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Meandering Oasis of Nex : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- The Ashen Forge Incursion : Neil Spicer "STRONGLY RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

******************

Category B : Clear recommendations = 7 maps, all went to Top 16

- Abaddon Breach Temple : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Abandoned Noble Cemetery, Isarn, Galt : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- The Howdah of Mogaru’s Consort : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- The Weeping Garden of Naderi : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Desecrated Sanctuary : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Black Dragon's Retreat : Neil Spicer "RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

- Ustradi Sunken Ruins (Mana Wastes) : Neil Spicer "RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do recommend", Top16

******************

Category C : Single recommendation = 1 map, none went to Top 16

- Runic Hurricane Laboratory : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do recommend", NOT Top16

******************

Category D : Opposite recommendations = 1 map, none went to Top 16

- The Clockworks : Neil Spicer "DO RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

******************

Category E : Single non-recommendation = 7 maps, none went to Top 16

- Flintyreach Cliff Harbor Ascent : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Reaping Stars Refinery : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Dwarven Brewery : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Den of the Ice Devil : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Waiting in the Depths : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Temple of Exquisite Anguish : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Apiary of the Aurulent Brothers : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

******************

Category F : Double non-recommendations = 7 maps, none went to Top 16

- Torvin Academy Quadrangle : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Boggart-infested saltmarsh and boathouse : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Standoff at River Logjam : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Hakima Ajit's Balcony : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Cyclogenesis - Eye of Abendego : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Hot Springs Trail : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

- Cabin in the Woods : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", NOT Top16

*********************

DQed :

- The Hallowed Falls : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", belongs to category F

- Swamp-Submerged Temple : Neil Spicer "ON THE FENCE", Liz Courts "do not recommend", belongs to category E

- The Slime Vaults : Neil Spicer "DO NOT RECOMMEND", Liz Courts "do not recommend", belongs to category F

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

The level of correlation between the judges' assessment categories and the results of the votes is astonishing. Not a single map advanced unless both judges recommended it. And all 16 maps that got recommendations from both judges advanced.

The first conclusion I draw from the above correlation is that contestants should pay extra attention to what judges like and dislike (as commented in previous seasons and rounds), since voters go the same way.

The second conclusion is that what judges think of a contestant's entry in the current round may actually be enough info to know how likely you are to advance.

I am left with some questions though. Is it mere chance that the sum of the top two categories is exactly 16 ?

And in any case, if the judges clearly identifying the 16 best entrants early on results in those being chosen by the voters, I feel that this can be a problem.

Maybe it would be better in the future to make sure that the judges' top categories number less than 16 total entries so that some entries can be chosen by voters a bit more independently of the judges' assessment.

That said, to be more entirely valid, this analysis of correlation would need to be done for the past seasons too. Yet I find the results for this round intriguing.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Arkos

The Raven Black wrote:
The level of correlation between the judges' assessment categories and the results of the votes is astonishing. Not a single map advanced unless both judges recommended it. And all 16 maps that got recommendations from both judges advanced.

I tried really hard not to look at the judges recommendations, but to instead make my votes personal. That being said, it was WAY too hard not to read those because they had such excellent reviews, and I ended up doing it more often than not.

On the other hand, if selected RPG professionals didn't like a map, I felt like I had to come up with a pretty good reason why I liked it before I should even consider giving it a vote. That's basically the reason why they're judging, right?

RPG Superstar 2009, RPG Superstar Judgernaut, Contributor

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Rich Malena wrote:
On the other hand, if selected RPG professionals didn't like a map, I felt like I had to come up with a pretty good reason why I liked it before I should even consider giving it a vote. That's basically the reason why they're judging, right?

Quoted for truth.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Thrawn007

The Raven Black wrote:


And in any case, if the judges clearly identifying the 16 best entrants early on results in those being chosen by the voters, I feel that this can be a problem.

I disagree on some level. If there are 12 maps, or 16 maps, or 20 maps that a judge feels is recommended, they should recommend them. They shouldn't be thinking about a quota to make sure they stay under 16.

There is no denying that the results matched judges results, but if all voters were following judge recommendations and nothing else, only 9 maps would have votes. The fact that the other 7 slots filled says that isn't how things went.

Voters only have 8 votes to fill 16 slots, and I think that is the key ingredient for how the round works and makes sure voters still have to make tough decisions.

Star Voter Season 6, Dedicated Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9

Rich Malena wrote:


I tried really hard not to look at the judges recommendations, but to instead make my votes personal. That being said, it was WAY too hard not to read those because they had such excellent reviews, and I ended up doing it more often than not.

I do make my notes & keep list before reading any of the other comments, but I look at them between preview & submit. I felt repitive in most of my comments. In one case a double recommend during R2 was on my weak reject list. I made a note to reconsider it if I was short on votes. But I wasn't & didn't.

hmmm... Correlation between this & my lack of tags....? :)

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Rich Malena wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
The level of correlation between the judges' assessment categories and the results of the votes is astonishing. Not a single map advanced unless both judges recommended it. And all 16 maps that got recommendations from both judges advanced.

I tried really hard not to look at the judges recommendations, but to instead make my votes personal. That being said, it was WAY too hard not to read those because they had such excellent reviews, and I ended up doing it more often than not.

On the other hand, if selected RPG professionals didn't like a map, I felt like I had to come up with a pretty good reason why I liked it before I should even consider giving it a vote. That's basically the reason why they're judging, right?

Thank you for explaining how you voted. This gives me a clue that likely many voters do as you did (or as Curaigh did), that is taking into account the judges' assessment before voting.

I made my voting choices without looking at the results of the judges' assessments. I did take note though of their voting methodology which they gave us and which is invaluable for any would-be contestant.

I understand the reason for voting after reading the judges' comments. I think however that this cements the link between judges' assessments and votes. A map that was not recommended by both judges (or even worse, by no judge) would need many people voting for it to make it into top 16. Since the criteria that voters use in their choice are so varied (as demonstrated in the 1st round), I believe the only way for a map to be both not recommended by both judges AND to be voted on by so many voters would then be the presence of a voting cabal.

After all, the judges are indeed veteran professionals who know what to look for in an entry.

In a way, the results of the votes are a good sign that no such cabal exists among voters. And this way of voting also explains the absolutely high level of correlation I noted above.

That said, if the results of the votes end up being the same as the judges' assessment, why do we even vote ?

Or is it to make sure that the judges did not miss something that appeared as top16 worthy to many many voters ?

Robert Thomson wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:


And in any case, if the judges clearly identifying the 16 best entrants early on results in those being chosen by the voters, I feel that this can be a problem.

I disagree on some level. If there are 12 maps, or 16 maps, or 20 maps that a judge feels is recommended, they should recommend them. They shouldn't be thinking about a quota to make sure they stay under 16.

There is no denying that the results matched judges results, but if all voters were following judge recommendations and nothing else, only 9 maps would have votes. The fact that the other 7 slots filled says that isn't how things went.

Voters only have 8 votes to fill 16 slots, and I think that is the key ingredient for how the round works and makes sure voters still have to make tough decisions.

Honestly, I am not sure what the "tough decisions" are if the end result only confirms the judges' assessments. Sure, I had to choose between several entries vying for my last votes, but this tells far more about my personal way of assessing a map rather than the actual worth of this map in the eyes of all voters.

I am all for judges having no quota for what they feel is recommended. The fact that there were exactly 16 entries that were recommended by both judges is likely just an unfortunate coincidence. And really, if the total number had been any number other than 16, I would not be writing this.

Which is the reason why I want to make a similar study of this correlation in last season's round 2 (which is the most similar to this one). Alas I have not had time to pursue this yet.

If someone did this kind of analysis in previous seasons, I would be glad to see it :-)

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Thrawn007

The Raven Black wrote:


Honestly, I am not sure what the "tough decisions" are if the end result only confirms the judges' assessments. Sure, I had to choose between several entries vying for my last votes, but this tells far more about my personal way of assessing a map rather than the actual worth of this map in the eyes of all voters.

I am all for judges having no quota for what they feel is recommended. The fact that there were exactly 16 entries that were recommended by both judges is likely just an unfortunate coincidence. And really, if the total number had been any number other than 16, I would not be writing this.

It's a matter of micro vs macro.

1) None of the judges recommended exactly 16 maps. They each independently recommended 17 maps. It happens that 16 maps got double recommendations. So the macro effect was different than the micro effect. Each judge had more choices they felt should advance than there were slots to advance.

2) No voter was voting on the 16 double recommended maps. Yes, the macro effect was that those 16 maps ended up with the most votes. My point on tough decisions was that even if a voter voted only on highly recommended + recommended maps, they would have a tough decision on which map to leave out, since 9 maps were in that status. Add in 7 double recommended maps, and even someone who only wanted to vote on recommended maps had to cut the list in half to come up with 8 maps. Micro effect...having to come up with a list of your 8 favorites. Macro effect, a list of 16 maps will pass through. If all voters picked 16 maps to advance 16 maps, then I think your argument would be much stronger.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8, Star Voter Season 9 aka Mark D Griffin

Usually there is a third judge in the mix, and that can also shake things up. There probably would have been less than 16 maps with 3 recommendations and more than 16 maps with at least 2. Of course we'll never know, but I think that's generally how rounds the large rounds with 3 judges have gone.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka motteditor

The Raven Black wrote:


That said, if the results of the votes end up being the same as the judges' assessment, why do we even vote ?

Because the judges' recommendations *aren't* always followed.

I remember at least one Superstar who went on to win after his theater villain's lair wasn't recommended to advance by half the judges (and the other two certainly didn't offer glowing recommendations). That guy's gone on to do pretty well.

Several years later, another Superstar went on to win despite his R2 organization receiving not a single recommendation from judges to advance.

--

I'm like Curaigh; I try to make my own decisions and then look at the judges' comments. They may have seen something I missed that changes my opinion. Other times -- like Scott LaBarge's Shadde-Quah Shoanti Cliff Dwelling. Calphiak Mountains last year, I may end up disagreeing with them. I ended up liking that map so much I tried to really champion it. It ended up advancing despite a lack of recommendations from the judges.

Sometimes a designer may catch the zeitgeist and the larger group of consumers are more into something than the two to four judges are.

Liberty's Edge Star Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9

Just looked quickly at the previous season's round 2 correlation.

IIRC, 12 maps got recommendations from 3 judges and all of them ended up in the Top 16. Many maps received mixed recommendations and most did not make it to top 16. And 2 maps that had mostly negative recommendations did advance to Top 16.

So, this confirms that the collective wisdom of judges meets the collective wisdom of voters. And sometimes voters do see something in entries that judges may have missed.

So, what JWM stated above ;-)

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Tothric

I would also like to point out something I learned REALLY early in my study of game design.

Don't design in a vacuum:
(Spoiler because I think everyone know what I mean by this already.)
—Don't design in a vacuum.

This is normally stated so that people get feedback on what they built, change it to meet the feed-back reproduce it, and get more feedback. To refine your product until it is as best as the idea can be.

However, there is a corollary to this:

—Stay in touch with your audience.

Game Designers, in my humble experience, thrive on feedback, and they LOVE getting feedback from like minded people. However; if you have too many people who have a very similar minded (Imagine always getting feedback from the people who live in your house, and ONLY the people in that house) eventually, your feedback audience becomes that vacuum you wish to avoid.

I feel that this is one of the primary reasons to have votes; So that the people in Paizo can get a feel for what the public want in the future.

Or: I am way off base. It just seems to me that this competition could not only be a great way to explore new talent, but explore what the consumers want.

RPG Superstar 2015 Top 8 , Star Voter Season 6, Star Voter Season 7, Star Voter Season 8 aka DeathQuaker

I don't think you're off-base, Jarrett. It is an easy trap to assume every player plays like you (generic "you") and wants the things you want. Trying to gauge a BROAD and DIVERSE audience is a challenge that must be overcome to do well in any form of writing, games included.

That said, this also has to come with the corollary: you can't please everyone, and you especially can't please gamers. Gamers are a persnickety and particular bunch, and often have no bones loudly disagreeing with those who present a playstyle differing from their own. You can present something you've designed to three gamers and get three very different reactions and all three wondering how the other two could possibly reach their particular conclusions. Ultimately you have to come up with something that makes YOU excited, and hopefully your excitement shows through your design and bleeds into the voters' evaluation process.

But regardless, understanding the difference between designing for your gaming group and designing for Paizo's customer base is crucial.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Petty Alchemy

I agree with (R? M(r)s. Pickard?) DQ, especially the latter part.

I spend a lot of time wondering what the audience wants, but ultimately my solace has to be that I like what I make. If others don't, it's easier to re-calibrate from there than it would be if I made something I didn't like but thought the audience would.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Thrawn007

Jarrett Sigler wrote:


Game Designers, in my humble experience, thrive on feedback, and they LOVE getting feedback from like minded people. However; if you have too many people who have a very similar minded (Imagine always getting feedback from the people who live in your house, and ONLY the people in that house) eventually, your feedback audience becomes that vacuum you wish to avoid.

Hey! Wait a minute. Are you calling my 6 year old a vacuum? I think he'd take offense to that. He gives great feedback! His favorite quote is "that's a terrible idea". Usually he's right when he says it.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 32 , Dedicated Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Tothric

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Robert Thomson wrote:
Jarrett Sigler wrote:


...Summery: A 6-year-old is a vacuum...
Hey! Wait a minute. Are you calling my 6 year old a vacuum? I think he'd take offense to that. He gives great feedback! His favorite quote is "that's a terrible idea". Usually he's right when he says it.

Does the 6 year old eat like a vacuum? Does the six year old make noise like a vacuum? Does the six year old make an explosive mess like a vacuum?

I rest my case!

But In all seriousness: I'm not implying that your 6 year old is a vacuum. I feel that keeping your designs in an echo chamber where the same things getting told to you is roughly a bad idea.

Also: Six-Year olds make great sounding boards. If a kid can't get excited about it: your doing it wrong.

Liberty's Edge RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 9 aka Thrawn007

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I knew exactly what you were saying. :)

I've found using my 6 year old to vet ideas up to round 3 has been great. Round 4 and 5 will likely be over his head however. I'll have to depend strictly on sounding boards with higher reading levels if I'm fortunate enough to move forward. I felt throwing the 6 year old into the conversation actually supports your point though. People I've had look at stuff from at least 1 round:
1) My 6 year old
2) A non-gamer who's good for my "if they have to read it twice" test
3) My local gaming group
4) Some college friends of one of my local gamers, who include a writer to give me a beating on grammar and writing, and who include some gamers who can min-max the hell out of anything
5) Several of my co-contestants (although that was only in round 1)
6) A 3rd party publisher who was gracious enough to look over my stuff

I don't take ALL the advice that any of these parties have to offer (except the 6 year old...if he says it's bad, then it's time to start over), but I believe I wouldn't be here in the competition without the feedback I've gotten, which makes me rethink things whether I change them or not

RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16 , Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9 aka Darkjoy

I like the exit polls, but couldn't add to this one. Suggestion: start sightly earlier with the poll for round 3.

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