Immersive Harmful Mindscapes - Limits?


Rules Questions


So ... immersive harmful mindscapes ... such as created by 'Create Mindscape' ... 4th level spell for a psychic ...

It's an illusion which allows for real damage to be done. So it makes me think of spells like Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. But those spells have very clear limits, and Create Mindscape, doesn't seem to.

Other than Rule 0, what's to stop my ever-ingenenious players declaring that:

... their target is immersed in lava (20d6/round), while the caster stands at the volcano's edge?
... their one believable creature is the tarrasque, who immediately attacks at (+37, 4d8+15) ?

I wondered if I should use the Psychic Manifestation rules to handle such attempts ... but they're very explicit about those being used only in a binary mindscape, not an immersive one.

What text am I missing that will give me a handle on this?


The limits are likely established in the particulars of the spell that would allow one to create the immersive mindscape in the first place. I'm not too familiar with occult adventure rules, but all I found was generic rules about mindscapes.

To that end I can only conclude that the spells that allow you to create the mindscape hold some restrictions on what you can do with the mindscape.


The general mindscape rules say the exit that victims know about if they disbelieve save has to be plausible to reach. It can be difficult, but not impossible, and the rules compare it to a dream condition. Obviously you can't escape a dream where you're immediately burned in lava or ganked by a huge monster, so no. But you can force them to cross a bridge over lava (low DC acrobatics check not to fall in) or put the big monster between them and the easy exit, forcing them to take a longer way through small passageways where they face other dangers, etc.

Keep in mind the spell level and that it has to have a dream logic level of fairness. Maybe limit damage and DCs for things inside in line with the spell level.


Duncan Forsyth wrote:

So ... immersive harmful mindscapes ... such as created by 'Create Mindscape' ... 4th level spell for a psychic ...

It's an illusion which allows for real damage to be done. So it makes me think of spells like Shadow Conjuration and Shadow Evocation. But those spells have very clear limits, and Create Mindscape, doesn't seem to.

Other than Rule 0, what's to stop my ever-ingenenious players declaring that:

... their target is immersed in lava (20d6/round), while the caster stands at the volcano's edge?
... their one believable creature is the tarrasque, who immediately attacks at (+37, 4d8+15) ?

I wondered if I should use the Psychic Manifestation rules to handle such attempts ... but they're very explicit about those being used only in a binary mindscape, not an immersive one.

What text am I missing that will give me a handle on this?

Seriously, there is a giant hole here where specific rules should be. One question I have:

How the hell does Mindscape Door work? You create an illusory door and everyone who walks through... just becomes a vegetable? The party walks through the door and just fall into a pile? Do following members see this? What the hell is the point?


Seriously, it's implied that nobody enters a mindscape physically with mindscape door... but it's not explicitly stated. If it's true, then where do you exit and who's the conduit if it's permanent? Does it always take you back to the same place? If it's not... then you have that goofy situation where you cast a funky door spell and everyone who goes through gets stupid then flops in a pile.

Also... "Typically, a mindscape door operates in both directions, but you can create it as a one-way door if you so choose" but "You still designate who can use the door from the real world to get into the mindscape, but you can't prevent creatures within the mindscape from exiting to the real world." Is it possible to trap someone with a 1-way door or not?

I'm guessing that the images you control don't do actual damage... but I have no proof of that. There are zero explained rules on how combat works in mindscapes that aren't binary psychic duels.

Seriously, these rules need mega clarification. Also... they need an explanation of what the hell they're good for. What is the point of having a goofy vivid dream space? I can think of moderately effective uses for communication, deception, combat etc. (looks like it can't be used for travel or physical safety) but ALL of them could be more easily and safely accomplished with other spells.


A greater mindscape can have a no magic trait, doesn't require line of site, has long range, and technically doesn't allow a save to negate, just to disbelieve and locate the exit after you're in. So you can yank a wizard in from outside his fortress, then have your melee allies club him like a baby seal.

Seriously, the long range and no line of sight/line of effect (the latter not directly stated, but implied by the spell description examples) makes this really, really good.

In an urban area you can stay in an inn, target people sleeping within long range, and then kill, intimidate, or charm/dominate them with no one suspecting they're doing anything but laying comatose in bed, like they should be.

In a dungeon you can pull people you have heard but not seen into whatever terrain disadvantage you want, see this text from the spell.

Quote:
If you target an area with more than one sentient creature and you have never seen any of the creatures before (for example, if you know a group of soldiers is inside a barracks but you can't see them through the door), the subject of this spell is selected at random. If you have seen firsthand the creature you wish to target (continuing the example, if you spied the sergeant entering the room moments before), You can select it unerringly from among all the creatures.

So you hear a bunch of cultists performing a sacrifice through the next door or down the hallway. You cast Greater Create Mindscape and put your party and however many random targets you want into a mindscape designed so that your entire party can focus on one enemy at a time, then move on to the next before they can consolidate or figure out what's going on. Hell, since it's long range you can even retreat pretty far away from the ritual site before you do this, just in case some are unaffected and think to look outside the door to see if anyone is there.

This spell is insanely powerful, that's why it has a 1 round casting time. It still needs a will negates saving throw house ruled in to prevent it being an auto death for anyone targeted for a mindscape ambush. If you're a spell caster in a world where this spell exists you have to have Mindscape Door memorized or known so you can escape, and you probably need to heighten or persist it so you can beat the other guy's will save and actually succeed.

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