Moving back to Rapture of Rupture


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Rapture of Rupture's At This Location effect says "At the start of your turn, succeed at [...] or move to a random location." At the start of your turn suggests to me that it happens around the same time you advance the blessings deck, meaning that you still have your move step afterward. Can you move back to Rapture of Rupture on the same turn you are moved away from it? And if so, what is the point of this At This Location effect?

Oddly enough, this hasn't actually come up in our game yet, but it seems like it could if we play through the fourth adventure again at some point.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Seems to have no impact unless...

You are moved to another location that has a tricky start of the turn effect
OR
You are moved to a location that prevents you from moving back.
OR BOTH...


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Kumarei wrote:
Rapture of Rupture's At This Location effect says "At the start of your turn, succeed at [...] or move to a random location." At the start of your turn suggests to me that it happens around the same time you advance the blessings deck, meaning that you still have your move step afterward. Can you move back to Rapture of Rupture on the same turn you are moved away from it?

Yes, barring any other effects that would prevent you from doing so.

Kumarei wrote:
And if so, what is the point of this At This Location effect?

It impacts character powers that let you examine cards at the start of your turn, and if the location you move to has a Start of Turn effect, it would also apply at that time (moved to Molten Pool? Take a point of Fire Damage!)

Note that Rapture of Rupture has you move to a random location, not a random other location, so it is entirely possible that you'll stay at the Rapture anyway.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
skizzerz wrote:
Kumarei wrote:
And if so, what is the point of this At This Location effect?

It impacts character powers that let you examine cards at the start of your turn, and if the location you move to has a Start of Turn effect, it would also apply at that time (moved to Molten Pool? Take a point of Fire Damage!)

Note that Rapture of Rupture has you move to a random location, not a random other location, so it is entirely possible that you'll stay at the Rapture anyway.

I don't agree that you'd have another Start of Your Turn power activate when moved to a random location. Otherwise, choose a random location... back at RoR and choose again … back again; choose. The Start of Your Turn happens and powers activate in order of card hierarchy.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
Kumarei wrote:
And if so, what is the point of this At This Location effect?

It impacts character powers that let you examine cards at the start of your turn, and if the location you move to has a Start of Turn effect, it would also apply at that time (moved to Molten Pool? Take a point of Fire Damage!)

Note that Rapture of Rupture has you move to a random location, not a random other location, so it is entirely possible that you'll stay at the Rapture anyway.

I don't agree that you'd have another Start of Your Turn power activate when moved to a random location. Otherwise, choose a random location... back at RoR and choose again … back again; choose. The Start of Your Turn happens and powers activate in order of card hierarchy.

If you wind up "back" at Rapture of Rupture, you never moved to begin with (it only counts as moving if you actually change locations). That means there is no additional Start of Turn effect to be applied. Now if there was a second location that could bounce you back to RoR at the start of your turn, then yes, I'd say that the RoR power would trip twice if you went from RoR to the other place then back to RoR all during the start of your turn. To the best of my knowledge, such a scenario has never even been a possibility.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I don't think the rules say anything about powers activating in order of card hierarchy, just that if there is a conflict between cards, the card hierarchy determines which one "wins".

As far as whether or not you'd have to apply any other start of turn powers, I'd say yes. Just like in RotR, if Amiri used her end of turn power to move to the closed Mountain Peak she still got to apply the new locations End of Turn ability to peek at another deck. You are still in your Start of Turn and have to (or get to for optional powers) apply the start of turn affect for the location you are moved to.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Oh, also I don't feel that the Start of Turn would trigger the same power more than once, so you can't end up in a teleport loop. You could end up getting moved multiple times if you had multiple locations with start of turn movement powers, but once you end up at a location that has already triggered, it shouldn't trigger a second time. Can I defend this with a rules quote? Not really, but it seems the most logical way to play it.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

If Amiri used her end of turn power to move to the closed Mountain Peak, she wouldn't activate the end of turn power from the place she left. In that situation, you're confronted with two "end of turn" events and you've decided the order to resolve them: first you're using Amiri's power to move, then you're resolving the location end of turn power.

I don't see any reason why you're still in "start of turn" after the movement occurs. You've resolved the start of turn procedure, you're now in your move step.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

That's what I was thinking also.

(And I was using the card hierarchy as simply a reference, not a rule. Start of Your Turn options can occur in any order, right?)

And part of my argument was that once the Start of Your Turn power at RoR is activated and you move elsewhere, why is it still a location's SoYT phase? (Like Molten Pool).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Here's why I argue that it is still the start of your turn:

You can determine the order of operation on Start of Turn powers since they all occur at the same time, so this is legal:

1. Let the location power move you.
2. Use Adowyn's power to retrieve Leryn from her deck or discard while at the second location.

Therefore, it is still the start of your turn when you enter the second location. If it is still the start of your turn, why wouldn't a different locations "At the start of your turn" power still trip?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Dave Riley wrote:
If Amiri used her end of turn power to move to the closed Mountain Peak, she wouldn't activate the end of turn power from the place she left. In that situation, you're confronted with two "end of turn" events and you've decided the order to resolve them: first you're using Amiri's power to move, then you're resolving the location end of turn power.

I don't see any reason, in the RAW, that Amiri couldn't use her power to trip two different "At the End of your turn" powers from two different locations. I don't remember ever wanting to in RotR, but I don't think it is not permitted.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'm with nondeskript, you're moving at the start of your turn for RoR's effect, not during your move step. It is still the start of your turn when you arrive at the new location, and as such you'd apply any start of your turn effects at the new location as well.

If you moved during your move step, of course they wouldn't apply. But this isn't moving during your move step we're talking about.

Sovereign Court

nondeskript wrote:

Here's why I argue that it is still the start of your turn:

You can determine the order of operation on Start of Turn powers since they all occur at the same time, so this is legal:

1. Let the location power move you.
2. Use Adowyn's power to retrieve Leryn from her deck or discard while at the second location.

Therefore, it is still the start of your turn when you enter the second location. If it is still the start of your turn, why wouldn't a different locations "At the start of your turn" power still trip?

That you use Adowyn's power isn't because it is still the start of your turn. It's because that power already triggered back when it was the start of turn. Once you start resolving start of turn powers, you don't get to add more.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And it's still the start of your turn after RoR moves you; that isn't your move step. It's the start of your turn until you run out of start of turn powers to apply, and in the meantime you can sequence those powers any which way you want since there is no explicitly called-out order. The following sequence is perfectly valid as Andowyn starting out at Rapture of Rupture:

1) Rapture of Rupture's power applies and Andowyn moves to Molten Pool
2) Andowyn recharges a card to get a Leryn into her hand
3) Andowyn takes 1 point of fire damage from Molten Pool

All three are start of turn effects, so they all happen at the start of your turn, the order of which is up to you to decide since it isn't called out. Steps 1 and 2 can be swapped if you want as well so you can get Leryn before moving (although it really doesn't matter since you can't actually play Leryn until after the start of your turn).

I'm curious to see why you believe that an ability that reads "At the start of your turn, succeed at a Charisma or Diplomacy 8 check or move to a random location" somehow makes it stop being the start of your turn after you finish moving as part of that effect. I really see absolutely zero rulebook backing to support that notion.


For the sake of argument, let's imagine that some power forces you to move at the start of your turn. You can choose the order of start-of-turn effects.

So if you start your turn in Molten Pool you can choose to apply this power to move away before Molten Pool triggers, right? Or you can choose to take damage first, if you feel a bit masochistic, and then move away.

Now imagine that you start your turn at another location, and some start-of-turn power moves you to Molten Pool. Why cannot you in similar fashion choose the Molten Pool damage to happen _before_ you actually move there, so that you can avoid it?


It depends on if you veiw "the start of your turn." As a phase/step you are in or as an event/trigger that activated powers. Rulebook doesn't say it's a phase says "after advancing the blessing deck, apply any other effects that happen on your turn." So I'd look at that as the start of your turn is a thing that happens that triggers card effects in the same way encountering a card might trigger them. Once you move that power is resolved. You don't activate the new location power because you were not there when your turn started. Side note this location would effect the give a card phase, since you can't move till after you give a card.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

If "Start of your turn" is a singular event that triggers all powers based on it simultaneously, then logically so is "End of your turn". That would mean Amiri cannot move to the Mountain Peak at the end of her turn to scout because she was somewhere else when "End of your turn" triggered powers. By the time her end of turn moving power moved her that trigger was in the past. I don't think that is correct (it certainly isn't how I played it in RotR). If Amiri can trigger an End of Turn power after End of Turn already triggered her move, then the same logic would apply to Start of Turn.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I'm not sure it's that it is a singular event. I think it was that there were multiple "Start of Your Turn" location events triggering.

Harsk (CD Vanguard) is at RoR and gets moved to another location, he still has his "At the start of your turn, you may examine the top card of your location deck." power.

So what you're saying is that all "Start of Your Turn" powers must (or may, if there is a choice) activate (once) if you are at a location prior to the "Give a Card" phase occurs.

Definitely a ruling that needs an official stamp. We can argue and argue but we'll see it from different viewpoints.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I'm not necessarily saying that all of them must/may trigger.

For example if you have CD Seelah, Faith Healer in your party and she uses her power to recharge a blessing to move you to her location at the start of your turn, you could choose to use it before the location you are at triggers. If you do so, location #1 never triggers (because PACG doesn't have a stack). But the location you end up at will trigger either way, in my opinion.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
nondeskript wrote:

I'm not necessarily saying that all of them must/may trigger.

For example if you have CD Seelah, Faith Healer in your party and she uses her power to recharge a blessing to move you to her location at the start of your turn, you could choose to use it before the location you are at triggers. If you do so, location #1 never triggers (because PACG doesn't have a stack). But the location you end up at will trigger either way, in my opinion.

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. The order doesn't matter but if applicable all SoYT powers have the opportunity to activate. Seelah activated her power prior to RoR location so it doesn't go off. But the location she landed at, Guard Post, makes her fight a Corrupted Soldier.


nondeskript wrote:
If "Start of your turn" is a singular event that triggers all powers based on it simultaneously, then logically so is "End of your turn". That would mean Amiri cannot move to the Mountain Peak at the end of her turn to scout because she was somewhere else when "End of your turn" triggered powers. By the time her end of turn moving power moved her that trigger was in the past. I don't think that is correct (it certainly isn't how I played it in RotR). If Amiri can trigger an End of Turn power after End of Turn already triggered her move, then the same logic would apply to Start of Turn.

Logically maybe, but that's not how its written. "Start of your turn" isn't a step, you just do "start of your turn" stuff during the "advance the blessing deck" step.

On the other hand "end of your turn" is a defined step in the rulebook that reads "First, apply any effects that happen at the end of your turn. *while you do this*, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers."

"Start of Your Turn" powers must (or may, if there is a choice) activate (once) if you are at a location prior to the "Give a Card" phase occurs. Is pretty much how I would define it, but rather I'd say "when you advance the blessing deck" rather than prior to you giving a card.

Also I think card you play have more flex than locations triggering at the same time because "you can play cards and use powers without limit in between these steps, as long as they don't say they can only be used at certain times."


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Start of turn powers are just as specific as end of turn powers:

WotR Rulebook, Page 8 wrote:
Advance the Blessings Deck: At the start of your turn, flip the top card from the blessings deck faceup onto the top of the blessings discard pile. You never acquire this blessing, though some cards may refer to it during your turn. If you have to remove one or more cards from the blessings deck for any reason and there are not enough cards to do so, the players lose the scenario (see Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path on page 17). After advancing the blessings deck, apply any other effects that happen at the start of your turn.
WotR Rulebook, Page 9 wrote:
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. While you do this, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers. If your number of mythic charges is greater than the scenario’s adventure deck number, discard any charges in excess of that number. Then, reset your hand (see Reset Your Hand on page 14). When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.

The only substantive difference is the second sentence of end your turn which states that you may play cards or use powers unless a power directed you to end your turn. I believe that is just there to be restrictive, not to tell you that you can play cards and use powers, since the default state in the game is that you can play cards and use powers. The next paragraph in the rules (under Playing Cards) starts with "Anyone can play a card whenever the card allows it."

So either: All of these powers trigger at once and you don't get to trigger a second power after moving, whether at the start or end of your turn (meaning Amiri moving to the Mountain Peak at the end of her turn and using its power to peek at cards isn't legal), or your going to potentially trigger each location you touch during this part of your turn (meaning Amiri can use the Mountain Peak to peek at cards, even though she wasn't there when the End Your Turn step began and End of Turn powers were triggered).

Yes, this would mean that, if you chose to activate a locations Start of Turn or End of Turn power before activating your Move power, you could trigger multiple Start of Turn or End of Turn location powers. I don't see that as a particularly big deal.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

nondeskript wrote:

Start of turn powers are just as specific as end of turn powers:

WotR Rulebook, Page 8 wrote:
Advance the Blessings Deck: At the start of your turn, flip the top card from the blessings deck faceup onto the top of the blessings discard pile. You never acquire this blessing, though some cards may refer to it during your turn. If you have to remove one or more cards from the blessings deck for any reason and there are not enough cards to do so, the players lose the scenario (see Ending a Scenario, Adventure, or Adventure Path on page 17). After advancing the blessings deck, apply any other effects that happen at the start of your turn.
WotR Rulebook, Page 9 wrote:
End Your Turn: First, apply any effects that happen at the end of the turn. While you do this, unless a power directed you to end your turn, you may play cards and use powers. If your number of mythic charges is greater than the scenario’s adventure deck number, discard any charges in excess of that number. Then, reset your hand (see Reset Your Hand on page 14). When you’re done, the turn passes to the player on your left.
The only substantive difference is the second sentence of end your turn which states that you may play cards or use powers unless a power directed you to end your turn. I believe that is just there to be restrictive, not to tell you that you can play cards and use powers, since the default state in the game is that you can play cards and use powers. The next paragraph in the rules (under Playing Cards) starts with "Anyone can play a card whenever the card allows it."

All of this is correct. And the rules also say "if the game doesn’t specify an order for things, you decide the order." So if multiple things happen at the start of your turn, or at the end of your turn, you decide what order they happen in.


nondeskript wrote:


The only substantive difference is the second sentence of end your turn which states that you may play cards or use powers unless a power directed you to end your turn. I believe that is just there to be restrictive, not to tell you that you can play cards and use powers, since the default state in the game is that you can play cards and use powers. The next paragraph in the rules (under Playing Cards) starts with "Anyone can play a card whenever the card allows it."

I agree it's not overly a big deal (unless say the effect you jump to would kill you) as I said I could really see it going either way, just depending on how you look at 'at the start of your turn' and think that people should just play it whichever way they feel is more fun.

I just personally find that it feels better to me, to look at 'the start of your turn' as a thing that happen which triggers powers which are then resolved. I'm not AT the new location when I started my turn so it just didn't feel right to activate the 'at the start of your turn' power at the new location since, when the turn started you didn't qualify for it.

I was paying attention to the fact the sections are titled differently. If you read the intent of that second sentence in "end of turn" rules solely as restrictive, then yeah, the way you are looking at it makes more sense.

This is how I see it as different than Amiri moving at the end of the turn: in that case, I move to a location at the end of my turn, but the turn hasn't ended yet thus, I look at the location, see I am there at the end of my turn, so I do that effect, then the turn is actually over. While in the case of starting a turn: the turn has already started before I moved, the turn started, I advanced the blessing deck, then resolve start of turn powers and and am moved, I am now at a new location.

I wouldn't be opposed to doing it the other way, (if that's what my group decided or the rules were errata-ed) but it just doesn't feel as right.

Vic Wertz wrote:
All of this is correct. And the rules also say "if the game doesn’t specify an order for things, you decide the order." So if multiple things happen at the start of your turn, or at the end of your turn, you decide what order they happen in.

True, "If things happen at the same time the active player determines the order they happen in." but, that feels somehow an slightly inelegant solution, as it implies that you are activating the "at this location" powers of location even when not at them. Except of the case of location powers that state "if you are at another location" that feels like it breaks "cards don't do what they don't say" in the same way you can't play a card to examine an empty location deck, you can't just use a power 'just because' when you don't meet the qualifications to play it.

I'll totally roll with it though.

I had to go and search out what CD Seelah actually did, took some digging to find. She gets tricky since you get to pick the order things happen in if they would happen at the same time. You1 don't qualify as "at the location" to activate it's power if your not at it. Theoretically, the way you are looking at it the Faith Healer Role power could either encounter both 'start of turn powers' OR only the start of turn power of the location you were moved to. (If it is a step rather than a snapshot moment in time, I don't think you can choose to activate the location power before you are at that location, since: you can't play powers not related to your check.)

If 'start of your turn were just a trigger' for events rather than a step you are still in after an action resolves, then you avoid both locations 'at the start of your turn' powers simply by moving before the first resolved (thus you wouldn't qualify to active either one since you were not at that location, the other since it was no longer the start of your turn.) but again... it all comes down to interpretation.

Edit: totally noticed Vic's title AFTER my post. lol. got it.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Card Game, Lost Omens, Maps, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think what is causing the difference in interpretations is that you are thinking of "start of turn" as a trigger, when it is not. In PACG, trigger effects (e.g. effects that happen when some event happens) use the word "When", which is missing for start of turn effects -- instead we are simply told to apply them. Even then, trigger is an informal descriptor of that type of effect, as there is no formal wording indicating even those are "triggers" or any such thing.

I play start of turn/end of turn in PACG like I would play those phases in Sentinels of the Multiverse, where you evaluate the set of all available start of turn effects and then choose one of them to resolve. After that's finished resolving, you evaluate the set of all available start of turn effects (which may be different now based on what just happened) and then choose one of them to resolve. Lather, rinse, and repeat until you're out of start of turn effects to apply. End of turn works exactly the same way, as does temp closing, and any other thing where you have multiple effects at the same time and you can choose which way they are ordered.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Added to FAQ.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder Adventure Card Game / Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion / Moving back to Rapture of Rupture All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.