Wizard as "skillmonster"


Advice


Dear all,

i like to build a wizard for a new group, starting at level 8.
My concept contains a lot of skills at acceptable levels that are not class skills for a wizard.
I need to invest two feats (Skill Focus (Diplomacy), Cosmopolitan (Perform/Diplomacy)) and all of my 2 traits (Perception, Sense Motive) to even get close to that what i had in mind and i'm still short of a few class skills i like to have as well.

Is there any way to get more class skills without losing so much feats and traits?
I was thinking about taking one level of rogue or another skill-affine class, but i'm not sure if the cost of losing a full casterlevel isn't to much of a sacrifice.

Another problem: I'm only allowed to use the Core Book, the AGP and the UM/UC as sources.

If you have any ideas they would be most appreciated.

Thank you.

Best regards

Brakiri


You could always consider going with Arcane Trickster. Something like Wizard 3/Rogue 1/Vivisectionist Alchemist 2/Arcane Trickster X, maybe?
Or would that be going in the wrong direction entirely.


If I were you, I would try to negotiate with GM to allow Evangelist prestige class. You will lose 1 spellcasting lvl, but you will get ton of skill ranks and more hitpoints.

Maybe bard archaeologist could also fit your concept...


Thank you all for your tipps.

I looked at all your suggestions, but i like to maintain his casting power as much as possible.
All your options would diminish his casting abilities extremly and for most of them i can't even qualify without waiting or taking a lot of other class levels. The Evangelist for example requires a +5 BAB which the wizard gets at level 10. The Arcane Trickster requires +2d6 Sneak attacks which would require at least 3 levels of Rogue or a similar class.

The character is planned as a court wizard with the most useful (social) skills at an acceptable level (Diplomacy, Bluff,Perception, Sense Motive). He also uses a Lyre of Building (Kingmaker Campaign) which requires Perform at an acceptable level.

As i said, the only two ideas i had to minimize the loss of casting power was one level of a skillmonster class or use the feats/traits as i have stated and...wait a minute..i could compensate for the lack of class skill bonus with an item which grants a competence bonus..hmm...


Alternatively, skill focus will make up for the lack of a class skill bonus. or one of the double skill bonus feats (like negotiator) will compensate for 2/3 of the loss of the class skill bonus.
additional traits might be more efficient.

I can't think of another way without diluting casting. Certainly isn't a 'free' way of doing it. There is always a cost to pay.

Maybe bribe the GM to expand your class skill list...


Advanced Race Guide has several useful options for humans:

Focused Study
Improvisation
Improved Improvisation
Silvertongued (if social stuff is most important, works better with Improvisation)

I know it's not among the allowed sources, but probably your GM wants to consider it - since it's not about maximizing damage output but about skills.

EDIT: If you want to multiclass at all, one level of rogue could be fine - a lot of new class skills and 6 SPs more than usually at the expense of 1 caster level.


Loremaster?


To be clear - you want diplomacy, perform, percepion and sense motive all to be good, and you want diplomacy to be especially good?

First, rather than skill focus (diplomacy) get a thrush familiar (UM) for +3 diplomacy. Or a pig, but I assume that wouldn't fit your character.

Next - class skill is a +3 bonus. You may find it easier to spend a little on magic items for a similar bonus rather than using feats for the purpose. Eyes of the Eagle for +5 perception for example.

Last - the exact number on your perform skill is unlikely to come up. Couldn't you just invest 8 ranks into it, get a masterwork instrument and call it a day?


What type of spells did you plan on using? If you planed on using mostly enchantment and illusion than you really may want to consider using a bard instead of a wizard. They not only have the required skills as class skills they are a CHA based caster and most of the skills you are looking at are CHA based. They also get bardic knowledge so do better at knowledge skills than a wizard. The archeologist bard would also be a good fit because they get a straight bonus to perception.

Play a human for both extra skills and the favored class bonus of extra spells. Use magic device is a CHA based class skill so use wands, scrolls, and staves for combat spells. Pick Expanded Arcana for your 5th and 7th level feats to get more spells known. If you use the human favored class bonus and Expanded Arcana you will know 9 0 level spells, 10 1st level spells, 8 2nd level spells, and 3 third level spells. Pickup all the summon monsters spells and pretend to be a conjurer.

Assuming a 12 INT this will give you 64 skill points. You will also have +5 in all knowledge’s and a +4 perceptions without spending a single point. You can make all knowledge’s untrained, and can even take 20 on knowledge once per day. You could pick up Coax Information and Obfuscate Story to give you even more options in social situations.

This also gives you better HP, BAB, reflex saves, better weapon proficiencies, and the ability to wear and cast in light armor.

Also pick up heroism as one of your second level spells and the trait fates favored. Combine theses for a +5 to all skills when you really need it.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brakiri wrote:

The character is planned as a court wizard with the most useful (social) skills at an acceptable level (Diplomacy, Bluff,Perception, Sense Motive). He also uses a Lyre of Building (Kingmaker Campaign) which requires Perform at an acceptable level.

As i said, the only two ideas i had to minimize the loss of casting power was one level of a skillmonster class or use the feats/traits as i have stated and...wait a minute..i could compensate for the lack of class skill bonus with an item which grants a competence bonus..hmm...

A Circlet of Persuasion would compensate for the class skill bonus on Diplomacy and Bluff.

When you get your Int headband, set the skill to Sense Motive.

Look at the Loremaster prestige class. It isn't a perfect fit, but it would give Diplomacy as a class skill and doesn't require that you lag in spellcasting.

That or take a bard instead of Wizard.


You could also try your hand at Crafting, if you've a fair bit of gold left over. Adding new powers to existing items is in the Core Rulebook, and you could probably get a lot of skill points at a reasonable cost if you start stacking items together.


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Hi,

@SheepishEidolon (cool nick! ;) )

These traits are off limits. There will be no exceptions..unfortunately. And i planned an elf (for Breadth of Experience), so no human racial traits/feats ;)

@avr

I already planned for the Thrush (i thought the Thrush gave +2 only?), an Amulet of Diplomacy (+5 competence), skill focus (Diplomacy), +1 from the trait to make this a class skill. I decided to abolish bluff, because i'm not a good liar and my char shouldn't be either ;)
Eyes of the eagle is a good idea. This slot is still "free".

@Mysterious Stranger & BretI

What do you mean by "When you get your Int headband, set the skill to Sense Motive."? The Circlet is a good idea, but is takes up the same slot as the Headband of vast Intellect.

It should stay a wizard, we already have a bard in the group, so i don't want to "encroach" on his territory (except Diplomacy for "backup" and for the concept).

I will focus on diplomacy and sense motive. My Diplomacy is 25 at the moment, that should be enough for low level court negotiations.

I will look at the Loremaster, thank you.


A thrush is definitely +3. Familiars which don't give +3 to a skill or +2 to a save are quite unusual.

+25 diplomacy is, IMO, ridiculously good. Are you sure it needs to be so high?

A circlet of persuasion takes the head slot, a headband of vast intellect takes the headband slot. No, I don't know why they're different, but they are.


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Avoron wrote:
You could always consider going with Arcane Trickster. Something like Wizard 3/Rogue 1/Vivisectionist Alchemist 2/Arcane Trickster X, maybe?

If the OP were allowed the Advanced Class Guide, then snakebite striker brawler 1/rogue 1/wizard 4/arcane trickster X would only put the character 2 levels behind in spell progression, without making the wizard's poor BAB even worse (as well as boosting both Fort and Ref saves). For a pre-ACG arcane trickster, I prefer sniper rogue (Sneak Attack to 40 ft, reduced range penalties) 3/wizard 3/arcane trickster X (usually .../arcane trickster 6/arcane archer 2/arcane trickster +4/arcane archer +2 for the added utility of Imbue Arrow with Surprise Spells).

For a (mostly) straight wizard, a one level dip is generally acceptable (use one of the traits for Magic Knack to avoid the caster level hit, instead of gaining a class skill). Instead of rogue, a dip in inquisitor might work even better for Monster Lore (assuming 12+ Wis) and Stern Gaze; depending on background and what the OP wants out of the character, the Charm/Love, Magic, or Nobility/Leadership domain might be a good choice.

As mentioned, loremaster is also an option for increased skills (although the requirements might clash with some of the other feat choices).


If you already have a bard in the group he is going to be a better face and skill monster than you could ever be. But keep in mind the Archeologist bard trades away all bardic performances for archeologist luck. Archeologist Luck gives you a luck bonus on basically everything you do. It is limited so lingering performance is almost required. Fates favored increases all luck bonus by +1. This means that at 8th level the archeologist luck is +3; the spell heroism provides a +2 morale bonus that stacks with archeologist luck for a total of +5. At 8th level a bard gets +4 on all knowledge’s which means even untrained he has a +9 without anything else.

Is the bard taking an archetype that trades away bardic knowledge? If he is you are not encroaching all that much on his character. If he does not have bardic knowledge than about the only thing you share is the same skill and spell lists. The archeologist bard is more of a magical thief than a bard. He actually makes a better arcane trickster than the actual prestige class does.

Keep in mind that what class is written on the character sheet is not what is important. What is important are the abilities and options you have. You don’t have to have wizard written on the sheet to be a wizard. Likewise if you have bard written on the sheet does not mean you have to be the typical bard.

For a skill monkey breadth of experience is not all that good. All it provides is a bonus to craft and professional skills. Heroism can not only give you the same bonus, but gives you a lot more. With a human archeologist bard I was able to get my diplomacy up to +24 without the use of any magic items at all.


Brakiri wrote:

Thank you all for your tipps.

IThe Evangelist for example requires a +5 BAB which the wizard gets at level 10.

I'm sorry, but you are wrong. Reread prereqs.

rules wrote:

Any one of the following:

base attack bonus +5
5 ranks in any skill other than Knowledge (religion), or
ability to cast 3rd-level spells.

You can grab it at level 6. And imho it is your best option.


Pathfinder Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brakiri wrote:

Hi,

@SheepishEidolon (cool nick! ;) )

These traits are off limits. There will be no exceptions..unfortunately. And i planned an elf (for Breadth of Experience), so no human racial traits/feats ;)

@avr

I already planned for the Thrush (i thought the Thrush gave +2 only?), an Amulet of Diplomacy (+5 competence), skill focus (Diplomacy), +1 from the trait to make this a class skill. I decided to abolish bluff, because i'm not a good liar and my char shouldn't be either ;)
Eyes of the eagle is a good idea. This slot is still "free".

@Mysterious Stranger & BretI

What do you mean by "When you get your Int headband, set the skill to Sense Motive."? The Circlet is a good idea, but is takes up the same slot as the Headband of vast Intellect.

It should stay a wizard, we already have a bard in the group, so i don't want to "encroach" on his territory (except Diplomacy for "backup" and for the concept).

I will focus on diplomacy and sense motive. My Diplomacy is 25 at the moment, that should be enough for low level court negotiations.

I will look at the Loremaster, thank you.

Others have already explained how the circlet and headband use different slots.

As a wizard, you want to plan for the headband of vast intelligence so as to not waste skill ranks.

CRB, pg. 518 wrote:
A headband of vast intelligence has one skill associated with it per +2 bonus it grants. After being worn for 24 hours, the headband grants a number of skill ranks in those skills equal to the wearer’s total Hit Dice. These ranks do not stack with the ranks a creature already possesses. These skills are chosen when the headband is created.

You probably want Diplomacy from day one, so Sense Motive will make more sense in the headband. You want it to be a skill that you can wait until at least 4th level before getting but that you will want max ranks in. Sense Motive, being an opposed skill check, is an excellent candidate for this.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Brakiri wrote:


The character is planned as a court wizard with the most useful (social) skills at an acceptable level (Diplomacy, Bluff,Perception, Sense Motive). He also uses a Lyre of Building (Kingmaker Campaign) which requires Perform at an acceptable level.

Define what you mean as "acceptable". As a high int Wizard you HAVE plenty of skill points to work with. You can have these things if you're willing to sacrifice on the concept of wizard as knowledge skill monster.

You can get some of what you want as class skills by applicable traits, but to have everything you want, you're barking up the wrong tree when you should be looking at Bard. Yes it's not the awe powerful spellcaster you have in mind. But you have to compromise at some level, and decide where you're willing to cut back to get what you really want.


Getting those four as class skills actually isn't difficult.

Two traits gets you two of them and the Cosmopolitan Feat gets you the other two.

Place the two that 'level' best in the traits and the two that drop off most in the feat, and retrain the feat when they stop being useful/your ranks become sufficient without the class skill bonus.


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If you don't care about the bonus languages from Cosmopolitan, consider using the Additional Traits feat from Advanced Player's Guide.

Perception: Eyes and Ears of the City (religion)
Diplomacy: Ease of Faith (faith)
Sense Motive: Suspicious (social)
Perform: Unknown (but as noted above, you'll rarely need Perform)

Remember, Enchanters get a +2 bonus to Diplomacy, Intimidate, and Bluff that increases by 1 every five levels. The 8th-level power could also help you or the Bard land spells.

Silver Crusade

In quests and campaigns there is a trait called Student of Philosophy. It shifts the stat that Diplomacy works off of from Charisma to Intelligence.

That might be useful


Just play a high int bard with a good charisma. Lots of skills and good utility spells.


Hi all,

as i said before, one of the other PCs plays a bard and it's a pretty standard skillmonster.
So i will settle with the 4 skills discussed as i can't compete skillwise anyway. As the wizard doesn't have a huge feat selection i think the build will fly (No more "Spellcasting Prodigy" or stuff like that).

Thank you all for your input i will look into your suggestions tomorrow.

Best regards

Brakiri


Take one level of expert.. :-)


While the Expert gets 10 skills of your choice as class skills, and light armor, it has little else to recommend it.

Some classes will synergize well with wizard for skills:
Rogue/Ninja: +15 skills -- get lots of skill points to invest & a little extra damage
Bard: +13 skills -- not quite as many skill points, but get extra 0th and 1st level spells, along with a spell list to bypass UMD with.
Inquisitor: +12 skills -- as bard, but with self buffs rather than party buffs as a focus
Gunslinger: +11 skills -- you get a GUN
Monk: +10 skills -- really helps with the saving throws. If you have any wisdom, get AC buff

I think a single level of Inquisitor would be best. Gets you a new spell list, and a few extra spells, and opens up a lot of skills. Loosing a casting level does hurt, but if you want to be a skill master, something has to be traded.

Also consider archetypes. Some might open up skills you want without dipping. Archetypes on dippable classes could do so also.

/cevah


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I love having skills too, and often make sacrifices to have more skill points, such as choosing traits specifically to give class skills.

However, there's a gulf of difference between having "acceptable" levels in a skill and maxing the h@ll out of it. I tend to draw the line at skill focus. A wizard just has too many cool things to do with his feats, and skill focus is a waste when you could be taking improved initiative, a few conjuration feats and various crafting and/or metamagic feats.

But if having feats maxed through the roof is your character concept, hey, go with it, keeping in mind what you're giving up to get there.

Maxing feats is a self-defeating proposition, though. Many DMs will react to your ultra-high bonuses by raising the DCs of the checks he calls for artificially. It's simply their way of keeping the challenge difficult, which frankly is part of the fundamental flaw in the skill system.

So if your wizard has enough skill points to put ranks in all your important skills, and didn't totally dump charisma at character creation, he should be fine in the social skills department. He'll certainly make the poor fighter look silly.


Wheldrake wrote:
Maxing feats is a self-defeating proposition, though. Many DMs will react to your ultra-high bonuses by raising the DCs of the checks he calls for artificially. It's simply their way of keeping the challenge difficult, which frankly is part of the fundamental flaw in the skill system.

That's not a fundamental flaw in the system, that's a fundamental flaw in the GM.

Higher Skill Modifier is supposed to mean higher chance to succeed, up to and including automatic success.


1) Spells will be better than skills, and keeping a lot of low level scrolls around is affordable and makes your wizard a great rogue.

2) Getting class skills from traits is easy, you can even afford to burn feats on Additional Traits - especially as a human which gives more skill points too.

3) Don't drop wizard levels, your spells are your life.

Side note: AT now only takes 1 level of rogue thanks to Dirty Tactics Toolbox - the same book that makes Combat Maneuvers more viable.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
kyrt-ryder wrote:
Higher Skill Modifier is supposed to mean higher chance to succeed, up to and including automatic success.

I agree completely in principle, but in practice it's often a different story. It would be better if there were a ceiling represtenting automatic success, and if skills could approach it asymptotically, only extremely rarely pasing that ceiling to represent superhuman skill use. Such was the case of the original Runequest system, though it had its pitfalls too.

DD3+ and PF suffer from the assumption that there is some target skill level / DC level based on character level and CR of an encounter. For many skills, there is no fixed number representing automatic success.


@Wheldrake

I took the following feats:

Toughness
Cosmopolitan
Skill Focus: Diplomacy
Breadth of Experience

I suppose that sounds very silly from a min/max point of view.

I thought about going "Summoner" with Spell Focus and Augment summoning but i was always underwhelmed by the results. Maybe i summoned the wrong stuff.


Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Brakiri: There is absolutely nothing wrong with those choices. Some would say they are suboptimal, but we all know that maximum optimisation is not the goal of the game. I bet you'll have a lot of fun with high social and knowledge skills, in addition to full mastery of your spell list.

Silver Crusade

Brakiri, I wish you the best with your character. In my opinion the most important litmus test with a character is if you are having fun and enjoying your character.

I have a 10 level sorcerer in PFS. He is part of the Taldor Faction. I suppose when I next play him, I will have to choose another faction like S. C. When I created the character we had faction missions in PFS.

I wanted to make a "diplomat" character.

:

His stats with a 20 -point buy was Str 9 Dex 12 Con 12 Int 14 Wis 12 Cha 18.
Over his carrier at 4th and 8th level I increased his intelligence by 1. I have purchased a headband of charisma +4.

I used the additional traits feat at first level.
I picked:
Eyes and Ears of the city= Perception as class skill +1 to skill
Suspicious=Sense Motive as class skill +1 to skill
Vagabond Child=Sleigh of Hand as class skill +1 to skill
World Traveler=Diplomacy as class skill +1 to skill

At 10 level his skills are
Appraise= 4 ranks=+10
Bluff= 4 ranks=+13
Diplomacy=4 ranks=+14
Intimidate=4 ranks=+13
Kn Arcana=8 ranks=+15
Kn Nobility=4 ranks=13
Kn Planes 4 ranks=+11
Perception=4 ranks= +11
Sense Motive=4 ranks=+11
Sleight of Hand=4 ranks=+9
Spell craft= 8 ranks= +14
Use Magic Device=8 ranks=17

Feat selection
1) Additional Traits, Noble Scion of Lore, 3) Expanded Arcana, 5) Expanded Arcana, 7) Improved Familiar (Yeah RindyWhipple gives a farie dragon as familiar) 9) Expanded Arcana. Spell from blood line Iron will.

My Favored Class bonus the entire way has been +1 spells known.


He did quite well in scenarios that focused on social skills. With an expanded spell selection he had spontaneous access too, he was an effective spell caster as well. He got through Bone Keep levels 1 2 and 3.

Best of luck with your character.


Brakiri wrote:

i like to build a wizard for a new group, starting at level 8.

My concept contains a lot of skills at acceptable levels that are not class skills for a wizard.

Another option would be to make +INT headbands that augment the skills you desire. Swap out headbands to "dress for the occasion".

Ask your GM if the ioun stone +INT equivalent works the same way in his game. If so, make some of those.


No one seems to have mentioned that a specialist enchanter gets several of the skills you want as class skills, and is thematically perfect for a court wizard.


tonyz wrote:
No one seems to have mentioned that a specialist enchanter gets several of the skills you want as class skills, and is thematically perfect for a court wizard.

Where did you get the changed class skills from? I don't see that.

It does get an ehancement bonus to diplomacy, bluff and intimidate, though only the first was a skill the OP named.


(Duh)

Got them confused...


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Student of Philosophy trait: Use Int instead of Cha on Diplomacy checks to persuade others and Bluff checks to lie. Does not effect gather information or feint in combat.

I love it on my diviner, and the flavor is awesome. You just convince someone not to fight using logic, lol.

Scarab Sages

I would say either specialize as an enchanter or else take a 1-level dip into bard or rogue. Oh, and play a human as well.


Another thing to consider is that you are playing a wizard but are focusing pretty much on only skills. This is ignoring the wizard’s strongest ability which is magic. Many situations that you will need the skills in can be predicted and planed for. Your focus is being a court wizard in a kingmaker campaign Most court situations you have at least a day or more warning. Use this to prepare your spells appropriately and you will be fine. Spells like heroism (+2 on all attacks, saves and skills), eagles splendor (+4 to CHA), owls wisdom (+4 to WIS) can all significantly boost your social skills.

Use alertness instead of making perception and sense motive class. You start with a +2 in each instead of +3, but at 10th level that can go up to +4 if you max out the skills. Since you get this for free when your familiar is within arm’s length this frees up a feat. Use silken ceremonial armor with the hosteling enchantment to keep the familiar close and unharmed. I know wizards don’t have proficiency with even light armor, but it has no arcane failure and no armor check penalty so you can actually use it. Pick up extend spell instead of skill focus.

Stop thinking like a rogue and start thinking like a wizard. At your level an extended heroism lasts for 160 minutes. The extended stat boosting spells last for 16 minutes. Use a trait to get diplomacy as a class skill. Assuming a base CHA of 14 and a WIS of 10 with 4 points invested in diplomacy, and 8 in sense motive, playing an enchanter. This gives you a diplomacy roll of +20 and a +14 sense motive. They drop down to +18 and +12 after 16 minutes, but those are still good rolls. Even without magic you still have a +16 on diplomacy, and +10 on both perception and sense motive.


Hi,

i forgot about Alertness completely.
Silken ceremonial Armor and hosteling sounds great.

I will look into it.

Thanks.


As others have suggested, you may go arcane trickster

However a new feat in the dirty trick toolbox(accomplished sneak attacker) allows you to gain a flat +1d6 sneak attack. Pre req: sneak attack class feature. That's it. Thus you can go rogue 1/wizard 3/ then take your first level of arcane trickster at lvl 5. Most of the skills from rogue and wizard don't overlap and pretty sure you would have most as class for the purpose of getting the bonus to skill checks + sorcerer spell progression.


Hi,

the focus should be to stay out of front line combat.
In addition it would reduce my casting abilities.
I changed the race to human, thus i have a feat and 1 Skillpoint per level more.
I have 63 Skillpoints on Level 8, 46 Hitpoints, Diplomacy at 20 without magic , all Knowledge Skills above 10 and even Perception/Sense Motive above 10.
In addition i plan to use the Lyre of Building a lot and i took Craft (Carpentry) and Stonemasonry at 10+. Knowledge (Engineering) is 15 so all three skills should be enough to be able to build a lot of different objects/buildings.

These Skill levels are without magic (except the +2 sense motive from the Headband). I took 5000 GP with me to King Maker, the Lyre of Building and the Craft Wonderous Items feat. I plan to open up a magic shop and maybe i will meet the new rules of the new nation "Südmark" quite early ;)

Until then i will build, craft, sell and create a network by using my charms ;)

I think that will be quite a lot of fun!

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