Tactician Valeros (S&S) and the FAQ About Encountering Villains


Rules Questions and Gameplay Discussion


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I was wondering if S&S Valeros' Tactician role might also need a look in light of this recent FAQ.

Tactician wrote:
When another character encounters a villain, you may immediately move.

I had played that Valeros could hop to another location in order to temporarily close it when someone encountered the villain. Perhaps that was wrong to begin with, but I had assumed that since both his power and the temporary closing stuff happened at the same time, he could move.

It is still a nice thing to be able to move to the location where the character encountering the villain is so that Valeros can give his bonus, and in truth that is what I used it for most. But I occasionally enjoyed jumping to cover a location no one was at as well. So I don't think it is wasted power, even if he can't temp close a location he isn't at when the card is flipped.

Thanks.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I think you're playing it correctly. Valeros can move to any location when another character encounters a villain, whether to aid the character or to attempt to temporarily close locations. That's the point of the Tactician, to be where he needs to be.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Valeros can move to any location when another character encounters a villain, whether ... to attempt to temporarily close locations ...

Except, according to the quoted FAQ, temp close happens BEFORE encountering the villain... :(

EDIT: Of course, Val's power doesn't really need a FAQ to remain functional; however, given that the temp-close's timing was changed more recently, I suspect it was the intent that Tactician can move to temp close, and his power should therefore be FAQed into "BEFORE another character encounters a villain, you may immediately move.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Because indeed, the way things are worded today, he definitively cannot hop and temp close (but he can hop and give bonus).


Longshot11 wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Valeros can move to any location when another character encounters a villain, whether ... to attempt to temporarily close locations ...

Except, according to the quoted FAQ, temp close happens BEFORE encountering the villain... :(

EDIT: Of course, Val's power doesn't really need a FAQ to remain functional; however, given that the temp-close's timing was changed more recently, I suspect it was the intent that Tactician can move to temp close, and his power should therefore be FAQed into "BEFORE another character encounters a villain, you may immediately move.

Coming from a Magic: The Gathering background, my group usually plays things with Magic's "The Stack". When you play things in response, they get put on the stack, then you resolve from top down. If you're playing Val's power in response to encountering the villain, we'd let him complete his move first, then the encounter can continue.

The question, then, is what do you mean about temp-close timing being changed? You referring to the rulebook in Wrath? I don't have Wrath yet so I'm not sure of a lot of the tweaks to the rules that have come with it.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

Gwyns,

There's a link in the first post in this thread leading to a FAQ entry about encountering villains that very clearly states that temp-close-attempts happen BEFORE the villain is actually encountered. Thus, by the wording of Valeros' power, he couldn't move until after all the temp-close attempts had been, well, attempted.


ah, you're right. i've always found it weird saying "before you encounter X" because, well...everything you do is before you encounter X, including a dozen turns. but i guess it's better than saying "before any 'before combat' effects, do this..."

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I agree that Valeros needs to be FAQ'd.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gwyns Firstborn wrote:
Longshot11 wrote:
Theryon Stormrune wrote:
Valeros can move to any location when another character encounters a villain, whether ... to attempt to temporarily close locations ...

Except, according to the quoted FAQ, temp close happens BEFORE encountering the villain... :(

EDIT: Of course, Val's power doesn't really need a FAQ to remain functional; however, given that the temp-close's timing was changed more recently, I suspect it was the intent that Tactician can move to temp close, and his power should therefore be FAQed into "BEFORE another character encounters a villain, you may immediately move.

Coming from a Magic: The Gathering background, my group usually plays things with Magic's "The Stack". When you play things in response, they get put on the stack, then you resolve from top down. If you're playing Val's power in response to encountering the villain, we'd let him complete his move first, then the encounter can continue.

The question, then, is what do you mean about temp-close timing being changed? You referring to the rulebook in Wrath? I don't have Wrath yet so I'm not sure of a lot of the tweaks to the rules that have come with it.

Except there is no stack in PACG; in fact, we have the opposite of a stack here with the "finish one thing before you start another" rule. Playing as if there was a stack can make your timing and abilities wrong in numerous cases. If things can happen at the same time you choose the order before resolving any of those things. See the linked FAQ entry in the OP for timing details on temp closing.

Adventure Card Game Designer

4 people marked this as a favorite.
skizzerz wrote:
there is no stack in PACG

The designers rock themselves to sleep with this mantra every night.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Now that I replied to a similar thread dealing with the villain encounter sequence, I can say that the updated FAQ doesn't actually impact whether or not Tactician Valeros can move to temp close -- he was never able to in the first place even before the FAQ clarification.

"When encounters" effects happen at a very specific point in the encounter sequence, namely step 1 of Encountering A Card: "Apply Any Effects That Happen When You Encounter A Card." Now let's take a look at the Encountering a Villain sequence, where we see that encountering the villain (thus triggering the encountering a card sequence) is step 2, after trying to temp close.

Sequencing therefore goes like so (shamelessly copy/pasted from my other post):
1. Flip over Villain
2. Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations (Encountering A Villain, p16)
3. Encounter the Villain (Encountering A Villain, p16)
3.1. Apply Any Effects that Happen When You Encounter A Card (Encountering A Card, p10)
...

Valeros's power triggers in step 3.1, which is after temp closing happens. This was the case even before the FAQ clarified that temp closing is "before the encounter."

If design intent is that Tactician Valeros is able to move and then temp close, then an FAQ for the power is definitely needed. By RAW, it never worked that way however.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Agreed. If Valeros is supposed to be able to temp close other locations as well as helping with the villain (he's not a ranger that helps if he's away from the location) by moving there, then there needs to be a FAQ entry. It depends on the intent of that Tactician power.


I didn't know people hated the stack so much. =(
It's also quite possible we are doing things wrong then in our PACG adventures then...


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Gwyns Firstborn wrote:

I didn't know people hated the stack so much. =(

It's also quite possible we are doing things wrong then in our PACG adventures then...

I'm a competitive MtG player myself, I know all about the complexity a stack brings to the table and am rather glad PACG manages to avoid it.

The best example I can think of where a notion of a stack will cause you to do things incorrectly would be Start/End of Turn effects at locations.

Let's say it's the start of your turn and you're at the Magma Pool, which says (among other things) "At the Start of your Turn, take 1 Fire Damage" as part of its At This Location text. Let's also assume that you have a card in your hand that says "Discard this card to move at the start of your turn."

With a stack concept, the Magma Pool effect goes onto the stack, and then you play your card that lets you move away from the Magma Pool. You resolve your card and move, but then you still need to resolve the Magma Pool effect and take 1 Fire Damage.

How it actually works is that it's the start of your turn and you have the Magma Pool effect and the card you can play that lets you move. Since they can both happen at the start of your turn, you choose the order in which the effects are applied. You decide to start with the card in your hand, so you discard that to move to a location that does not have any start of turn effect. Now that you finished that, you evaluate what other Start of Turn effects there are and don't see any -- the fact that you were previously at the Magma Pool doesn't make any difference because you aren't currently there now. You don't take any fire damage and continue on with your turn.

In a broad sense, thinking in terms of a stack can help you piece out what happens when, but note that there are foibles in that method you must consider when doing so as it is not a direct mapping to what actually happens.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The FAQ adjustment described here has solved this problem.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

So, what exactly does this mean for Tactician Valeros? Say Feiya explores and flips over a villain. Is the first thing that happens is that Valeros can move? Or is the first thing that happens temporarily closing, then the encounter with the villain, during which Valeros can move?


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

That's a tricky one, because I'm unclear whether the encounter with the villain actually starts with the attempts to temporarily close or after.

Page 16 of the Rules is a bit confusing : you have a whole "Encountering a Villain" paragraph that encompasses two steps :
A) Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations
B) Encounter the Villain

One my argue that Valeros' power triggers only during B), way after A).
Then one might argue the opposite.

A little rewording of the rules may be welcome. depending on what Mike and Vic want, it could be :

-----
1) If you want the encounter to start in B) and thus Valeros movement happening after the Temp Close, change the title to "facing a villain" (because encountering is just part of the paragraph) and rewrite A) with something like :

Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations.When a character
is about to encounter a villain...
or
Attempt to Temporarily Close Open Locations.Immediately before a character encounters a villain...

----

2) If you want the encounter to start in A) and thus Valeros movement happening before the Temp Close, rewrite B) with something like :

Resolve the rest of the encounter. The rest of this encounter works exactly as ...

IMHO

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Vic Wertz wrote:
The FAQ adjustment described here has solved this problem.

Erm... ignore that. There's another bit of discussion happening that may someday make my above statement true, but it's not true yet.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

The Mummy's Mask rules now allow effects to happen when you flip over a card, which means even before you would temporarily close locations before encountering a villain.

This FAQ entry makes Valeros's power work at that time.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Vic Wertz wrote:

The Mummy's Mask rules now allow effects to happen when you flip over a card, which means even before you would temporarily close locations before encountering a villain.

This FAQ entry makes Valeros's power work at that time.

Would that include flipping over a Sandstorm, when I'm discarding it from the blessings deck?


Longshot11 wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:

The Mummy's Mask rules now allow effects to happen when you flip over a card, which means even before you would temporarily close locations before encountering a villain.

This FAQ entry makes Valeros's power work at that time.

Would that include flipping over a Sandstorm, when I'm discarding it from the blessings deck?

Since the Sandstorm then immediately moves everyone to a random location, which could include the location they are already at, that's usually not going to matter. (In this crazy game, there may be an edge case where it does matter; if so, I'm betting you already had it in mind...)

Lone Shark Games

Vic Wertz wrote:
This FAQ entry makes Valeros's power work at that time.

I got a shiny new bunyip for the first person without access to our bug-tracking system who can answer this question: What will the next (and so far, only) other FAQ entry based on this new "when you flip over a card" ruling will be?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

I don't think flipping a card is defined in the rulebook, so I would guess it relates to what counts as flipping. A quick look in the MM rules reads that cards in the blessings deck are discarded, not flipped, so Valeros' power wouldn't trigger on Brinebones or Sandstorms in the blessings deck (though the rules box following refers to flipping cards). When you explore you are told to flip the top card of the location deck. I'm sure without flipping defined someone might ask if finding a villain while examining counts as flipping the villain.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:
Vic Wertz wrote:
This FAQ entry makes Valeros's power work at that time.
I got a shiny new bunyip for the first person without access to our bug-tracking system who can answer this question: What will the next (and so far, only) other FAQ entry based on this new "when you flip over a card" ruling will be?

Just because I love Bunyip..., this would be my FAQ:

When Vic uses "flip over" in a rule or FAQ (like in this FAQ entry) is it valid for both when you turn the card face up and when you turn it face down (e. g. when you will reshuffle the villain in a location in case you fail to defeat it, or when you will reshuffle a Sandstorm in the blessing deck)?

Yes I know it's a really can'o'worms one, but hey, Mike, you asked for it :-).

... and I REALLY love bunyips.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Malcolm_Reynolds wrote:
I'm sure without flipping defined someone might ask if finding a villain while examining counts as flipping the villain.

Huh. I *wasn't* going to ask, because I held it as self-evident truth, that "examining" IS 'flipping over'. But since you seem to imply the opposite - yeah, obviously we *do* need some clarification what does count as *flipping*

(Our working reading is: "flipping is the process of turning face-up any one face-down card, regardless of the power or rule that make you do so, and of where this card ends up". So yeah, we would also count as 'flipping' when a villain is discarded from the Blessings Deck)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Longshot11 wrote:
Would that include flipping over a Sandstorm, when I'm discarding it from the blessings deck?

You don't "flip over" the top card of the blessings deck. You discard it onto the top of the blessings discard pile.

Page 7 of the Mummy's Mask Rulebook wrote:

Advance the Blessings Deck: At the start of your turn, discard the top card from the blessings deck faceup onto the top of the blessings

discard pile.


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber

The rule is on page 9. Right hand column, first paragraph below the red strategy box.

MM Rulebook p 9 Emphasis Mine wrote:

Encountering a Card

...
After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it. If the card is a bane, you must try to defeat it. If it is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if you choose not to acquire it, it counts as failing to acquire it. If any powers happen when you flip over the card, they take effect at this time. Then go through all of the following steps that apply in order.

That makes it part of encountering a card. And it would seem only part of encountering a card in a location deck (not summoned cards, etc). Though, I'm wondering if it should more generally just be part of any encounter. So, is an encounter this:

1. Flip the card effects.
2. Before the encounter effects (especially villains).
3. When you encounter effects.
4. Evasion effects.
5. Before you act effects.
6. Attempt the check.
7. Attempt the next check.
8. After you act effects.
9. Resolve the encounter effects.
10. After the encounter effects.

3 through 9 seem to be "during the encounter", while 1, 2, and 10 seem to be outside the encounter.

And to Mike's question, the next "flip the card" FAQ will be this:

What do I do if I accidentally build the location deck faceup?

Lone Shark Games

To FAQ my own question about the FAQ:
By my question I mean: What other card(s) will get a new FAQ entry because the concept of flipping over a card has been defined in the rulebook now?

Frencois wrote:
When Vic uses "flip over" in a rule or FAQ (like in this FAQ entry) is it valid for both when you turn the card face up and when you turn it face down (e. g. when you will reshuffle the villain in a location in case you fail to defeat it, or when you will reshuffle a Sandstorm in the blessing deck)?

No, that's not it, though that's an interesting reading of "flip over."

Hawkmoon269 wrote:
What do I do if I accidentally build the location deck faceup?

I assume you can't the FAQ if you do this, because you are currently on the phone with tech support asking why your computer won't work while it's turned off.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Flipping over cards is already well defined in both English and the rulebook; we are told "When you explore, flip over the top card of your current location deck." on p8 and the following about encountering a card on p9:

Quote:
After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it. If the card is a bane, you must try to defeat it. If it is a boon, you may try to acquire it for your deck; if you choose not to acquire it, it counts as failing to acquire it. If any powers happen when you flip over the card, they take effect at this time. Then go through all of the following steps that apply in order.

To me, the above paragraph states that flipping over effects only apply to encountering cards, and not discarding or otherwise moving a card from a deck to a pile.

My guess for the bunyip would be clarifying that second thing I quoted to be specific that "when you flip over" effects in relation to villains happens before attempting to temporarily close locations (likely by rewording "Before a character encounters a villain" in the temp close section to something with more definite timing, perhaps "When a character flips over a villain or summons and encounters a villain" since summoning doesn't involve flipping). Or, an FAQ where you "flip over" summoned cards as well to make them consistent with location deck cards in terms of using things like Valeros's power.

Edit: or not, no bunyips for me ;(

Paizo Employee Contributor

Abyssal Rift, and the higher level version of Abyssal Rift. That's my guess, Mike, as they're the only cards I can recall right now that specifically "flip."

Do I win a bunyip?


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
Flipping over cards is already well defined in both English and the rulebook; we are told "When you explore, flip over the top card of your current location deck." on p8 and the following about encountering a card on p9:

If I was seeing any point to it, I'd argue that our definition of 'flip over' is actually closer to the English language definition, than the meaning that seems to be put into it by the consensus.

Also, that Rulebook quote from p8 is all good and well, but we also have the following quotes:

p.7, Tracking the Blessings Deck:

Quote:
"Unfortunately, once you realize you’ve skipped it for the last few turns, it’s often not so easy to figure out how many cards you need to flip to catch up.

p.15, Closing a Location:

Quote:
"Finally, apply any effects that say “on closing” and flip the location card over.

So, while this quote from p.9

Quote:
After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it... If any powers happen when you flip over the card, they take effect at this time.

... tells us when *during an encounter* the 'when you flip over' effects trigger, it does NOT tell us they can't trigger in other circumstances *outside of an encounter*.

And given that the Rulebook itself talks about "flipping cards" in at least two other circumstances - I would definitely NOT call this "well defined in the Rulebook".

We will consider what seems to be the consensus on the meaning of "flip over", but if the consensus is right - I should thing some wording massaging is in order, Rulebook-wise.

Lone Shark Games

Ron Lundeen wrote:

Abyssal Rift, and the higher level version of Abyssal Rift. That's my guess, Mike, as they're the only cards I can recall right now that specifically "flip."

Do I win a bunyip?

Oh, I wish. That bug remains stubbornly open.


Pathfinder Card Game, Maps, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Longshot11 wrote:
skizzerz wrote:
Flipping over cards is already well defined in both English and the rulebook; we are told "When you explore, flip over the top card of your current location deck." on p8 and the following about encountering a card on p9:

If I was seeing any point to it, I'd argue that our definition of 'flip over' is actually closer to the English language definition, than the meaning that seems to be put into it by the consensus.

Also, that Rulebook quote from p8 is all good and well, but we also have the following quotes:

p.7, Tracking the Blessings Deck:

Quote:
"Unfortunately, once you realize you’ve skipped it for the last few turns, it’s often not so easy to figure out how many cards you need to flip to catch up.

p.15, Closing a Location:

Quote:
"Finally, apply any effects that say “on closing” and flip the location card over.

So, while this quote from p.9

Quote:
After you flip over the top card of the location deck, put it on top of the deck and read it... If any powers happen when you flip over the card, they take effect at this time.

... tells us when *during an encounter* the 'when you flip over' effects trigger, it does NOT tell us they can't trigger in other circumstances *outside of an encounter*.

And given that the Rulebook itself talks about "flipping cards" in at least two other circumstances - I would definitely NOT call this "well defined in the Rulebook".

We will consider what seems to be the consensus on the meaning of "flip over", but if the consensus is right - I should thing some wording massaging is in order, Rulebook-wise.

I more read that the explicit line in encounters of telling you to activate "when you flip" effects means that implicitly you do not activate such effects outside of that circumstance, unless the "when you flip" power makes it obvious it should apply outside of encounters as well. I can't think of any such effects though, as they can be just as easily worded "When you permanently close a location" or "When you discard a card from the blessings deck" rather than "When you flip a location card" or "When you flip a card from the blessings deck" (although flipping a location card triggers would have extra fun at locations like Abyssal Rift or powers that re-open locations, most of the time it's equivalent to saying it's permanently closed).


Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
skizzerz wrote:
I can't think of any such effects though, as they can be just as easily worded "When you permanently close a location" or "When you discard a card from the blessings deck" rather than "When you flip a location card" or "When you flip a card from the blessings deck"

Sorry, what I meant was not that it is likely that it would matter for blessings deck discards and closed locations, but rather was pointing out that the Rulebook is already playing it pretty lose with the 'flip over' wording. Which is what made us think of it not as a specific game term, but rather as literally describing the physical action to " turn face-up a face-down card".


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Card Game Subscriber
Mike Selinker wrote:

To FAQ my own question about the FAQ:

By my question I mean: What other card(s) will get a new FAQ entry because the concept of flipping over a card has been defined in the rulebook now?

AK the one and only Survivor!!!!!

Best character in the whole Goblinarion
The Emperor of flipping over!!!
The only one that can raised to be king just because your card fall off the table on the good side!!!

I WON MY BUNYIP!!!!


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Mike Selinker wrote:

To FAQ my own question about the FAQ:

By my question I mean: What other card(s) will get a new FAQ entry because the concept of flipping over a card has been defined in the rulebook now?

What about WotR Seelah's Wardstone Sentry power, "When another character encounters a monster that has the Cultist or Demon trait, you may immediately move to his location."? Should that be changed to "flip over", or can you temp close your location then move to the villain's location if it has one of those two traits?

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

Mike Selinker wrote:

To FAQ my own question about the FAQ:

By my question I mean: What other card(s) will get a new FAQ entry because the concept of flipping over a card has been defined in the rulebook now?

FAQ added. No winners—the board goes back.

Lone Shark Games

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Vic Wertz wrote:
No winners—the board goes back.

Vic wins with his outstanding Concentration reference.

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