I started this thread expecting to immediately derail the very thing it has led to, by posting a video of sphynx kittens.
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Your profile picture and this comment make me think you'd be the Paladin version of Mr. Miyagi.Mold and shape their precious minds so they grow up to be my special followers. They will train hard to become outstanding in making my cothes, doing windows and taking care of my dirty work.
Afterwards, they will be ready for Paladinhood.
Yes. I will need to teach them proper ettiquette.
Wax on and wax off, side to side and up down will be their first lessons.They must be prepared to face pathfinder societys largest faction'-- murder hobo
These questions always make me want to ask "So your party of pure elves stumble upon a nursery of baby humans in the bandits hide out what do you do?"
Obviously these humans where evil and vile creatures and you swiftly dispatched them. So whats to say the babies before you are not already evil and vile and just unable to act upon their vile natures?
We have all heard the horrible things humans can do to one another? Do you really want one of THOSE running around your home?
I suppose if those elves were lead by thranduil, that might just happen....
A bunch of these supposition are taken out of context.... how did these young goblins come into the parties line of site....pretty much, and almost always the party has been fighting goblins...and now wandered into the nursery.
Why was the party fighting the goblins in the first place?
In most cases they ventured into goblin territory to defeat the goblins.
Why did the goblins need defeating?
Adventure hook is usually goblin raiding, pillaging, plunder...please o please save our town from the goblins (I always wondered why people didnt MOVE.....I mean if youre being raided cant you just go somewhere ELSE?)
anyway...people just dont wander down the road and find a box full of goblin babies. (although somehow I wouldnt put this past goblins for some reason)
Now take into context the party could have a dwarf or elf or both in the group who is over a 100 years old and knows all the well the history of the goblin and what goblins are, as WELL as a deep seeded hatred FOR goblins.
IT also begs to be answered still....ARE goblin babies defenseless? Or are they chucky? Given their primal nature, violent society, high mortality rate....its likely baby gobos can walk/talk/bite and maybe even fight nearly the moment they come out of the womb, there is no definition for this and no reason to assume they are just like humans in the regard.
So that would all have to be defined by the DM.
You do not refrain from killing an elf because they are only 90. do you?
Maybe goblins are the rough equivalent of an elf ay 90 years old when they are 90 minutes old?
Long lived races mature slowly, short lived ones mature... rapidly?
Its likely a natural defense mechanism, especially concerning the nature of goblins preying upon the weak...what would goblins do to their own kind if they found a litter of unprotected babies?
also at what age do they get their alignment?
Also not really defined.
a PC cannot change an NPCs alignment.... it's assumed a nurture thing with humans, how they are treated, how they are brought up.... it's shown that to be true with animals (like pitbulls....are they nasty or nice?)
But not defined specifically with monsters.
again just because they are bipedal and humanlike doesn't mean they follow human rules.
so all those questions would need to be answered to make a determination "what to do with a litter of goblin babies"
as for the orca thing...these goblins are within walking distance of your human settlement (otherwise you wouldnt be adventuring in their dungeon to begin with)...the PCs are there, exterminating goblins because until recently, the goblins were doing it to whoever.
Orcas are as similar to humans in the same way goblins are as similar to human.
just because goblins have hands and feet doesnt make them any more precious of a life.
the fact is even the young are more dangerous and powerful than humans and can easily take a human life, and unlike their relatives, dolphins, an orca will kill humans (dolphins are unlikely to do so, deliberately)
so if that creature posed a threat to your family or village, you would seek to drive it off permanently or kill it. you wouldnt stop to check its ID to see if it was a minor.
Which brings us back to gobos.... how do you know its a litter of babies?
Goblins adults are already child sized., and more or less dress like they are wearing diapers.
so we are just looking at smaller versions of goblins... what are they doing? rolling about on their backs cooing?
I doubt actual goblin babies would do that...more like gnawing on each other causing blood shed.
how are they confined? In a pen? or are they free roaming?
what are they doing when you find them...what are they doing minutes later when they acknowledge your presence?
do they speak?
The probably has a number of ways to communicate with adult goblins, so its probably reasonable to try to communicate with young ones.
Why do you kill adult goblins?
Because they are armed, evil and are trying to kill you first.
so if THESE goblins arent armed or trying to kill you.... ummmm if they dont have anything I want, I suppose I spend my time trying to keep the dwarf or elf in my party from exterminating them or vomiting in their presence?
You've got a problem on your hands if you have a dwarf barbarian.... anyone got a charm spell?
I am like 9.9999999% sure he meant Orcs not Orca as in the killer whale.Are Orcas non sentient? I would argue they very much are.
would you trust young ones around your children? Or kill them if they posed a threat to your family?Of course you don't go around thrusting your children at any pair of jaws you find, what does that have to do with this? Are you equating the list of people I don't trust as babysitters with the list of people who need to be slaughtered?
Otherwise, why is an orca posing a threat to my family, exactly? Did it flop out of the water and shimmy into my house and start niibbling on somebody? Yes, kill it.
Or did I go to IT'S home (with my family?? on vacation to oroca infested waters??) and then getting all fussy when it is nearby being potentially dangerous? Too bad, I'M the home intruder if so. Do you think it should hold up in court if I break into your house, wearing my baby, and then shoot you because I thought you were looking at me threateningly and you were a threat to my family?
no orca... as in a big intelligent mammal eating porpoise.
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It depends on the situation. If the babies are in immediate danger, then I take them to safety if I can. If they are not in danger and there are guardians nearby, I leave them alone.
Even if there are no guardians nearby, I still leave them, because what is there to do? There are no goblin orphanages, and most orphanages will not take in goblins. And I will not dedicate the next few years of my life to raising goblins, so all I can do is hope they can fend for themselves.
Although a fine, well-fed dwarven upbringing would set the little imps straight.
wait so if there are "guardians" near by....arent those the things youve been amusingly killing?
IF you havent been, how did you wander up on the babies unmolested? Your armed and armored and there is nothing between the babies and you?
What fi you KILL ALL the adult goblins....you would leave the babies there to what? starve?
If they arent capable of harming or posing a threat to the party, they are also not capable of surviving on their own.
Is it a "good" thing to do, staying in your alignment to not murder the innocent, but at the same time let them perish cruelly with no food or water because you exterminated their care givers?
Just because humans and/or elves wont take care of baby goblins doesnt mean there isnt anything that would...
there ARE other creatures and even humanoids in the world...heck in in the neighborhood.
And given the commonality of goblins...how hard would it be to find MORE of the suckers?
Pack these things up... load them in a wagon and in a days ride youve found more goblins.... give them a few hundred gold and the baby goblins and make a deal with them...you dont kill my kind and I wont come hunt you down you filthy curr... now take these things that are biting my ankles and be gone!
In a few years youll be slaying these now adult goblins anyway....right?
Mold and shape their precious minds so they grow up to be my special followers. They will train hard to become outstanding in making my cothes, doing windows and taking care of my dirty work.
Afterwards, they will be ready for Paladinhood.
so you mean grus minions? Only not yellow?
It depends on the situation. If the babies are in immediate danger, then I take them to safety if I can. If they are not in danger and there are guardians nearby, I leave them alone.
Even if there are no guardians nearby, I still leave them, because what is there to do? There are no goblin orphanages, and most orphanages will not take in goblins. And I will not dedicate the next few years of my life to raising goblins, so all I can do is hope they can fend for themselves.
Although a fine, well-fed dwarven upbringing would set the little imps straight.
wait so if there are "guardians" near by....arent those the things youve been amusingly killing?
IF you havent been, how did you wander up on the babies unmolested? Your armed and armored and there is nothing between the babies and you?
What fi you KILL ALL the adult goblins....you would leave the babies there to what? starve?
If they arent capable of harming or posing a threat to the party, they are also not capable of surviving on their own.
Is it a "good" thing to do, staying in your alignment to not murder the innocent, but at the same time let them perish cruelly with no food or water because you exterminated their care givers?Just because humans and/or elves wont take care of baby goblins doesnt mean there isnt anything that would...
there ARE other creatures and even humanoids in the world...heck in in the neighborhood.
And given the commonality of goblins...how hard would it be to find MORE of the suckers?Pack these things up... load them in a wagon and in a days ride youve found more goblins.... give them a few hundred gold and the baby goblins and make a deal with them...you dont kill my kind and I wont come hunt you down you filthy curr... now take these things that are biting my ankles and be gone!
In a few years youll be slaying these now adult goblins anyway....right?
If I'm killing a clan of goblins, it's for a reason. I may have been hired, for example, to dispatch a threat terrorizing a local village.
It is very well cruel to slay their caretakers. It is also cruel for their caretakers to slay the villagers. Such is the way of war, and war is cruel.
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I adopt them, just like I do with the adult goblins I encounter.You really must stop adopting the small sized races just because they are child sized. That halfing couple got rather cross last time, and now the guards know our faces...
They are my children
(On a side note I don't adopt halflings or gnomes, they're are rude and smell too much like humans and elves respectively.)
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These questions always make me want to ask "So your party of pure elves stumble upon a nursery of baby humans in the bandits hide out what do you do?"
Obviously these humans where evil and vile creatures and you swiftly dispatched them. So whats to say the babies before you are not already evil and vile and just unable to act upon their vile natures?
We have all heard the horrible things humans can do to one another? Do you really want one of THOSE running around your home?
The difference is that Humans don't have a biological predisposition to murder/pyromania despite being raised in a good environment. Monster races naturally gravitate to being monsters, as dumb as that is.
You can change that as a DM, but the standard assumption is pretty bleak.
Oh yes they do, humans can be killers from a very young age and if that does not show some biological predisposition then I do not know what does.
Also Goblin PCs are not 100% evil so kind of lose the biological predisposition argument on that.
Kill the evil ones. Take the others to safety.
Easy!
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I should also point out that there are healthy outlets to murderous urges and pyromania. All that's required is patience and discipline on the part of the caretaker to channel these things to be productive (which will be a lot more successful than attempting to squash them).
For instances, alchemy training focused on controlling fire and a healthy dose of hunting should lower these 'biological predisposition' to manageable levels just as they would in any other humanoid who showed those tendencies.
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Or they turn into Grenadier Human Hunters and become heroes of their new tribe upon adulthood.
Precious babies.
(More seriously, so could any human child)
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I guess this is why we kill human babies when coming across them too.
That...and they're quite delicious.
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Myrgar say to enjoy pyromaniacal fun with little baby goblins! Myrgar feel real bad for humans and dwarves and creatures who never set something on fire before. They be missing out!
What you should be askin yourself.... goblin babies....
Goblin babies means pregnant goblins...
Just try and envision a pregnant goblin...
With all those horomones??? And random cravings???
Or even more disturbing.... goblins going at it to become pregnant in the first place...
Just try and envision it..
What you should be askin yourself.... goblin babies....
Goblin babies means pregnant goblins...
Just try and envision a pregnant goblin...
With all those horomones??? And random cravings???
Or even more disturbing.... goblins going at it to become pregnant in the first place...
Just try and envision it..
You haven't been on the internet long have you?
PULL!
Though Pendagast takes a different approach from me, he's asking the right questions.
The two big ones I see are: What are goblins like in the setting? and How did you come across these baby goblins anyway?
The first is very much GM dependant. Even in a published setting, there are differences in a how a GM will run it. So ask. If you're thinking like Pendagast, but the GM thinks goblins are actually thinking creatures that can be reasoned with - even if they tend towards evil and destruction, you have an assumption clash. Likewise, the other way around.
How you find them may tie into that. If you're there to stop goblin raids and they are rational, there should be ways short of total extermination to deal with the problem. Furthermore, there are likely to be noncombatants among the goblins or at least some who are cowardly and try to flee. Or who try to protect or escape with the babies. OTOH, if they all just hurl themselves suicidally at the PCs, then it's more likely the GM isn't treating them as actual people. That's when you'd be more likely to have to kill them all and be left with only the babies.
On the gripping hand, the GM may not have thought it through and just had fun with the tactical fight, where you had to kill all the goblins and then switched to a knee-jerk moral "you can't kill babies" when you reach the nursery. That's a case of bad GMing and as far as I can see, it's about the only time this dilemma should come up.If I was running, it wouldn't. Unless you were evil enough to slaughter the fleeing, surrendering non-combatant goblins, in which point you're already evil before you get to crushing little goblin baby skulls. Otherwise, if you do go up against a goblin village, there will be opportunities to handle the problem short of total slaughter. If I'm not interested in moral complexities in that game and just want evil monster villains, then you'll be encountering soldiers and raiding parties, not towns.
asI said in 1e... the monstrous humanoids and their women and children given combat stats.
The goblin young were classified as kobolds... so if you can spear a kobold, why not a young goblin?The great gygax in the sky set forth a precedent... the monstrous humanoids are all combatants capable (although weaker than the adult males) of killing you.
I have neve seen anything else in print saying the opposite...the rest is armchair supposition.
What you should be askin yourself.... goblin babies....
Goblin babies means pregnant goblins...
Just try and envision a pregnant goblin...
With all those horomones??? And random cravings???
Or even more disturbing.... goblins going at it to become pregnant in the first place...
Just try and envision it..
envision what?
Goblins?
they are already crazy ravenous wild eyed insane evil incarnate... maybe thats because goblins are asexual and they are ALL constantly pregnant? Gestation period is a few months, and the goblin children reach maturity within weeks??
they become spontaneously pregnant and the rampage begins anew!
If I'm killing a clan of goblins, it's for a reason. I may have been hired, for...It depends on the situation. If the babies are in immediate danger, then I take them to safety if I can. If they are not in danger and there are guardians nearby, I leave them alone.
Even if there are no guardians nearby, I still leave them, because what is there to do? There are no goblin orphanages, and most orphanages will not take in goblins. And I will not dedicate the next few years of my life to raising goblins, so all I can do is hope they can fend for themselves.
Although a fine, well-fed dwarven upbringing would set the little imps straight.
wait so if there are "guardians" near by....arent those the things youve been amusingly killing?
IF you havent been, how did you wander up on the babies unmolested? Your armed and armored and there is nothing between the babies and you?
What fi you KILL ALL the adult goblins....you would leave the babies there to what? starve?
If they arent capable of harming or posing a threat to the party, they are also not capable of surviving on their own.
Is it a "good" thing to do, staying in your alignment to not murder the innocent, but at the same time let them perish cruelly with no food or water because you exterminated their care givers?Just because humans and/or elves wont take care of baby goblins doesnt mean there isnt anything that would...
there ARE other creatures and even humanoids in the world...heck in in the neighborhood.
And given the commonality of goblins...how hard would it be to find MORE of the suckers?Pack these things up... load them in a wagon and in a days ride youve found more goblins.... give them a few hundred gold and the baby goblins and make a deal with them...you dont kill my kind and I wont come hunt you down you filthy curr... now take these things that are biting my ankles and be gone!
In a few years youll be slaying these now adult goblins anyway....right?
Do you know why most terrorists list as the reason WHY they are a terrorist?
Because some soldier blew up their family or killed their father, etc etc.Combat/violence breeds the next generation,
So if you slaughter a den of goblins, are we expecting their offspring we "saved" to NOT seek revenge?
"oh thank you bipedal thing that looks nothing like me, worships false gods and feeds me this yuck I cant stand...thank you for saving me from the depravity of my own kind and exposing me to the filth and decadence that is your society!",
Thank you thank you thank you.
This is kinda akin to colonists trying to clothe the savages.....
What savages?
theyre only savages because the new people that came here called them that.
If wolves are eating your livestock....ummm put up better fences or move?
I left all this burger king out on the picnic table... then left and the monkies at all my burger king, I HATE panama!! lets kill all the monkies!
OR you could keep your food in the fridge if youre not going to eat it, eh?
Funny, people expect wolves to hunt and monkies to eat bananas, but we leave all these easy tasty targets out for them, and then expect them to act different then WE do?
Goblins burn, steal, kill and raid.... Lets move closer to them!!!
so are goblins the tribbles of golarion?
*Stuff* ...the rest is armchair supposition.
As opposed to what? Taking the text found in a 30+ years old game with completely different rules and pretending it automatically applies to the current game?
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Why is someone bringing up the rules and reasoning of a game that is not PF as if we should abide by those ruling. GG was a tad crazy or hadn't you heard?
Unless PF publishes a 'Killing babies handbook' on how to fight and kill babies of various races then those rules and stat run ups do not matter here.
My issue is that people really do feel like they need to justify their characters killing entire tribes down to the last creature so they do not have to feel bad.
Really? Yes killing newborn creatures who have not opened their eyes yet is EVIL, killing babies in their mothers arms is EVIL, butchering surrendering or fleeing foes is EVIL. Deal with it.
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Of course my answer is largely going to depend on the setting we're in and the specific character I'm playing.
If we're in a Middle-Earth type world where certain races are always evil and cannot be redeemed or "raised right" then I would have no trouble with letting the party kill infants of the species.
If we're in a Forgotten Realms type world where races tend toward good or evil because of their culture, than my reaction will largely depend on my character's life experiences and prejudices.
In most cases though, unless I'm playing a particularly black-hearted or kind-hearted character, I'm more likely to just ignore them. Maybe they'll die of exposure or maybe they'll be rescued by other goblins. I don't want to actively harm an infant but because it's a commonly antagonistic species I don't care enough to help either.
Yes, I'm still trying to turn this thread back into the joke I meant it to be. :(
They are actually kinda cute cats to be fair.
Kinda cute cats that are okay to murder in the cradle.
They are actually kinda cute cats to be fair.Those are cats? I thought they were a kind of rat.
Rats? Of course they be rats! We just call them "goblin doggies" in Golarion.