Can you use multiple natural attacks while being grappled?

[Kudaku]

The text in question reads as follows:

p. 200-201, CRB, "if you are grappled" wrote:

Alternatively, if you succeed, you can become the grappler, grappling the other creature (meaning that the other creature cannot freely release the grapple without making a combat maneuver check, while you can). Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

One of my players is arguing that the singular use of "a weapon" means that a creature being grappled is limited to making attacks with only one natural attack irregardless of how many natural attacks he has available. IE if you were grappling a dire badger, it could either try to bite you or hit you with one claw, but not attack with both claws and the bite attack in the same round. That seems very odd to me.

Is he correct?

[joe kirner]

No. Can make ful attack with natural and one handed and light weapons if you are the one being grappled.

[FLite]

From the developer

Quote:

The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.

Basically, when you have the grappled condition, one attacking limb (of your choice) is immobilized.

So your player is a little correct. The badger can bite *and* hit with one claw, but not with both.

Just be glad it is not a tiger, they actually get more attacks when grappled.

[Gwen Smith]

FLite wrote:

From the developer

Quote:

The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.

Basically, when you have the grappled condition, one attacking limb (of your choice) is immobilized.

So your player is a little correct. The badger can bite *and* hit with one claw, but not with both.

Just be glad it is not a tiger, they actually get more attacks when grappled.

First, that's a conceptual description, not a mechanical one. Second, "typically" doesn't mean "always".

There is nothing in the rules to imply that one attacking limb is immobilized or that you can't use all your attacks. (It's a reasonable ruling, certainly, but if you're looking for strict rules language, it's not supported.)

The rule only says that you can't use two hands to perform a single action. (There are several other threads where people argue whether two-weapon fighting "requires two hands to perform".) In the strictest reading, as long as only one hand is holding each weapon, attack all you want (or there's no reason to include "full attack" in the text). For a natural attack, unless it takes "two hands to perform", it should be fair game.

All that said, grapple has always been a bit messy, and most GMs have to apply their own rulings to it. Personally, I'd love the "eliminating one limb" ruling, because it means my tetori monk would take one less attack when she's grappling people! Sadly, my GMs have never ruled that way. (Tell your player to grapple defensively and increase his AC.)

There has been talk about a new grapple FAQ to finally A all the Qs about grapple: until that happens, you just have to make your best judgement.

[Diego Rossi]

Note that the grappler is using a limb to maintain the grapple (for a non humanoid creature it can be a paw, the mouth, a tentacle etc.), not the grappled.
He is held by some part of his body, but that can be a leg, his neck , the torso or a sleeve, so even the RAI cited above don't say he is using one of his limbs while grappled, as he isn't the one maintaining the grapple.

[Archaeik]

Diego Rossi wrote:

Note that the grappler is using a limb to maintain the grapple (for a non humanoid creature it can be a paw, the mouth, a tentacle etc.), not the grappled.

He is held by some part of his body, but that can be a leg, his neck , the torso or a sleeve, so even the RAI cited above don't say he is using one of his limbs while grappled, as he isn't the one maintaining the grapple.

Even this isn't actually defined by the rules, only that the controlling grappler also gains the grappled condition.

The difference that is defined in the rules is that the controller can end the grapple as a free action, that's it.

[Gauss]

Kudaku, your player is missing the phrase "such as" in the quoted rules. The statement regarding light or one-handed weapons is an example of something that does not require two hands to perform. Natural attacks do not require two hands to perform.

Here is the relevant passage:

CRB p201 "If you are grappled" wrote:

Instead of attempting to break or reverse the grapple, you can take any action that doesn’t require two hands to perform, such as cast a spell or make an attack or full attack with a light or one-handed weapon against any creature within your reach, including the creature that is grappling you.

The restriction is: "you can take any action that doesn't require two hands to perform". Everything after that is an example.

So, yes, the grappled creature can perform a full-attack using any and all natural weapons available to it.

Summary: Do not grapple creatures with many natural attacks unless you want to get shredded.

[hiiamtom]

They really need three grapple conditions: Grip, Grapple, and Pin

Grip: The creature uses one appendage capable of grasping to hold a target in place

Grapple: The creature traps the opponent with their body giving them an advantage over them

Pin: Target is completely immobilized and helpless

Most people expect #2 & #3, but the rules are more #1 & #3.

[FLite]

Gwen Smith wrote:

FLite wrote:

From the developer

Quote:

The RAW do allow the grappled to make a full attack action, assuming they can do so with only one hand. Since flurry does not require two hands to perform, a monk could flurry. Grappling is not always the best idea. Grappling a monk is one such example. I think folks need to remember that the grappled condition is not as severe as it once was. You are no longer draped all over the target. It is more like you got a hold on them, typically an arm (hence the restriction). The pinned condition is more of your greco-roman wrestling hold.

Basically, when you have the grappled condition, one attacking limb (of your choice) is immobilized.

So your player is a little correct. The badger can bite *and* hit with one claw, but not with both.

Just be glad it is not a tiger, they actually get more attacks when grappled.

First, that's a conceptual description, not a mechanical one. Second, "typically" doesn't mean "always".

There is nothing in the rules to imply that one attacking limb is immobilized or that you can't use all your attacks. (It's a reasonable ruling, certainly, but if you're looking for strict rules language, it's not supported.)

The rule only says that you can't use two hands to perform a single action. (There are several other threads where people argue whether two-weapon fighting "requires two hands to perform".) In the strictest reading, as long as only one hand is holding each weapon, attack all you want (or there's no reason to include "full attack" in the text). For a natural attack, unless it takes "two hands to perform", it should be fair game.

Two weapon fighting *is* a single, full round, action, that requires two hands to perform (unless you are using a boulder helm or some other non hand weapon.)

Note that Jason states that monks can flurry *specifically* because flurry no longer requires two hands.