What makes the Witch base class valuable in a party?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Dark Archive

I recently received the Advanced Player's Guide, interested in all the new classes provided. I may be missing something in the rules of the witch, or just missing something in general, but a witch doesn't seem very... good in a party as an arcane spellcaster. The hexes and idea of a patron are interesting, which I suppose gives them variety, but it just seems like a wizard with less spells to choose from, plus a familiar that is out in the open and easily killed. Again, I am probably missing something, but they do not seem as useful at any point during their leveling. Wizards have a near identical early leveling slump, but then they become god-killing machines at level 20, which I'm not sure a witch could be. Opinions / corrections?


A wizard is a lot more powerful and versatile.

A witch has a different flavour and also can have several divine spells, such as Heal, Harm, and Raise Dead.
A party lacking a full divine caster can cope better with a witch than with a wizard.
Eg a paladin and a witch covers more bases than a paladin and a wizard.

But, if power is all you care about, then a wizard will wipe the floor with a witch at high level. At low level, a witch with the slumber hex is much more powerful than a wizard.

I've played both; I prefer wizard, but others will disagree.


Many witch hexes are really, really good.

And witches get to pull a number of spells off of the divine lists, both from their base list and also based on their patron.

The witch list is fairly restrictive compared to the wizard list, but they get a number of things that wizards can't do themselves.

And that's pretty much what it comes down to.


Witches are not as good at utility casting as wizards, and don't have nearly as broad a spell selection. But...

They're really about the hexes -- they're amazingly good debuffers (though a few hexes are helpful for buffing).

They're great at helping or fighting with large parties or lots of opponents (most hexes can only be cast on a specific target every 24 hours, but if you have a lot of friends and foes, this doesn't hurt.)

They have a decent amount of stuff that's usually described as arcane, and some healing magic, so they can fill both sorc/wizard and cleric/oracle slots, if you have a player who wants to do a wide variety of things. (Choice of patrons can help a lot with boosting a particular theme.)

"Not as useful as a well-built wizard played by a system master" is not the same thing as "ineffective character." They're very effective -- one of their big problems, in fact, is making DMs cry by seriously shutting down quite a lot of foes.


Yeah, big seller for the witch class are the hexes. Strong at-will debuffing spells (Evil Eye, Misfortune) and some other really good stuff. Only that most of them aren't even spell like abilities and thus don't provoke AoO.


If we're holding all classes up to the wizard to determine if the class is "valuable in a party" then I think the witch is close to the bottom of the list you have to be concerned with.

Dark Archive

Oh I just found something that I didn't realize, you get unlimited hexes per day of the hexes you can cast... I thought it took up a spell slot. Alright, I understand the appeal a bit more now. They can debuff groups at a time with ease, or just debuff one dude into the ground. Plus the spell selection, while limited, does give some divine stuff in there as well. Thanks for the help!


The witch like a multiplier for casters like a bard is a multiplier for martial classes.

The witch can dump enemy saves, and force them to reroll and take the worse result. What if your party had a save of die wizard? Those debuffs would make enemies easy prey.

And witch hexes are something she can throw out fairly infinitely (usually once against the same enemy per day... but you can hit each and every single enemy without any problems).


Hexes are (Su) and as such are not subject to spell resistance and can not be dispelled or counterspelled. They don't function is areas where magic does not work, but aside from that they are quite reliable.


Evil eye+Misfortune+Cackle+ Slumber...

That combo will pretty much make every GM cry...

And if slumber doesnt work (elves...) ice tomb works just as well....

At later levels, you can be REALLY mean and Force Reincarnate something. Very good at destroying an encounter woth something that is strong because of race (demons amd the like).

Oh! Or you can just summom the spirit of a wizard 2 levels lower than u

Shadow Lodge

I'm not certain I'd classify it as valuable, but every witch I have seen makes a lot of combats boring and pointless with their Hex/Cackling They also have great spellcasting, but don't really need to use it.


Witchs are THE Save or suck class. They are completely designed around the idea of Save or Suck.


AntiDjinn wrote:
Hexes are (Su) and as such are not subject to spell resistance and can not be dispelled or counterspelled. They don't function is areas where magic does not work, but aside from that they are quite reliable.

They can also be used while grappled which is handy.


Witches are very strong, if only because of their Hexes giving them something useful to do every single round of combat. Slumber is wicked powerful, and once the witch gets into Split Hex being able to potentially drop two enemies with one standard action is brutal. This is on top of a decent spell list with full casting. A lot of hexes also have an effect even when the opponent saves against them.

I'd argue that a Shaman is stronger, if only because the Unsworn archetype gives them a lot of versatility (and access to, like, whatever spell they want), but Witches are powerful and flavorful additions. You bring them for the debuffs and the potential to straight-up end an encounter with one action.


Oh! And Beast Born witchs are crazy hard to kill... and crazy strong vs things with low will...

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Oh! And Beast Born witchs are crazy hard to kill... and crazy strong vs things with low will...

They're not that hard to kill.. just kill the witch AND her familliar. Job done. Just to make sure, kill the familliar first.


Gilarius wrote:
At low level, a witch with the slumber hex is much more powerful than a wizard.

A witch who boosts hex DC will probably still get slumber off on the wizard.

But witch is much more debuff based and does it better in long hauls since hexes don't have a use/day limit and only sometimes a use/target limit letting them get and keep buffs/debuffs going forever with cackle.


Icy Tomb is also effective against a wizard, as they have bad fort saves. However, the game is not based on what PC classes would win against what other PC classes, but how well the PCs do in a group against NPCs and the environment.

A witch is a valuable member of a party, just as a wizard is. There are some things that a wizard will handle better than a witch, and vice-versa.


There are three reasons why the Witch is a very effective class: slumber hex, slumber hex, and most importantly, slumber hex.


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Axial wrote:
There are three reasons why the Witch is a very effective class: slumber hex, slumber hex, and most importantly, slumber hex.

Well, that and "full caster"

Liberty's Edge

and when the wizards or sorcerers have burned out most of their spells over a long dungeon with little rest, a witch can still contribute. A cleric without spells still can Whack most regular creatures upside the head. Plus witches work best in teams and fighting 3+witches in a coven where they are all buffing each others spell-casting by simply helping each other. Wizards are great artillery but they do take time to become game breaking levels of powerful. A group of high level witches, Working together, WILL most of the time stomp on that wizard with abominates, de-buffs and sleeps before with wizard even opens his mouth. That and they Can fly. For Free(not using a spell slot). With a hex, that also gives them feather fall at lower levels.

That and no wizard has the ability to generate tentacle hair with a strength bonus equal to their intelligence. And Boy they really wished they could, because an uber wizard with that strength bonus might be capable of snapping giants in half with their hair alone.

Witches have their place next to the wizard on the power scale. While the wizard is undoubtedly the king of Arcane Spell-casting versatility, The Witch can still do things that mess with the wizards day considerably.


Pretty much what Eris said. Because you have hexes that are reusable you're going to have many more spells than a wizard at the end of the day. They can go for longer and keep the rest of the party going along with them.

A great class and despite not having a fuller spell list like wizards are easily equal to them for what they do get, and their betters for going the distance for the day.


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Cute nose-wriggling somatic components.


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Evil eye+Misfortune+Cackle+ Slumber...

That combo will pretty much make every GM cry...

And if slumber doesnt work (elves...) ice tomb works just as well....

Waring: The GM may just retaliate by using a lot of undead - witches do NOT have a lot of good options against undead besides Misfortune & the Summon Monster spells.

(One of my witch's recurring enemies was an undead MONK. That guy made for some frustrating battles.)

Quote:


Oh! Or you can just summom the spirit of a wizard 2 levels lower than u

No, no... summon the ghost of a _sorcerer_. No spellbook needed!


Arbane the Terrible wrote:
Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:

Evil eye+Misfortune+Cackle+ Slumber...

That combo will pretty much make every GM cry...

And if slumber doesnt work (elves...) ice tomb works just as well....

Waring: The GM may just retaliate by using a lot of undead - witches do NOT have a lot of good options against undead besides Misfortune & the Summon Monster spells.

(One of my witch's recurring enemies was an undead MONK. That guy made for some frustrating battles.)

Quote:


Oh! Or you can just summom the spirit of a wizard 2 levels lower than u
No, no... summon the ghost of a _sorcerer_. No spellbook needed!

Icy tomb works on undead...


@Pixie

It gives a fort save, so undead are immune.


Before the latest batch of Errata, the Scarred Witch Doctor could even be decent in combat (get a Reach weapon and do the same kind of thing as a Reach Cleric, but tossing out Hexes most of the time instead of spells, while still fishing for AoOs). Unfortunately, the latest Errata nerfed that concept while making a Half-Orc Scarred Witch more powerful as a more-or-less standard Witch (did the developers forget that Half-Orcs can put their ability score bonus anywhere?). Now I'm going to have to study the Shaman to see if they can work for the Reach Caster concept.

* * * * * * * *

One thing in addition to Hexes that the Witch is good for is a party that has only one full caster, with the Witch being it. Since the Witch spell list covers a pretty good selection of both Arcane and Divine, especially if you select a Patron like Healing, in which case you have all your bad status removal needs covered (as long as the Witch doesn't get disabled so as being unable to cast, but that's the same problem as if your Cleric goes down in a more standard party). A Wizard wouldn't be able to cover this until getting to high enough level to summon Outsiders that can do this, except that a Spell Sage Wizard can do this inefficiently and a very limited number of times per day (and incidentally is cut down to the same number of spells per day as a Witch, because Spell Study replaces Arcane School, except that casting from a different spell list consumes 2 spell slots, in addition to being separately limited to a very low number of times per day). Certain Shaman builds can also do this, although their Hexing is not as strong as that of a Witch, and have the BAB to pull off the Reach Caster concept without having to jump through hoops -- needs further study.


Snowblind wrote:

@Pixie

It gives a fort save, so undead are immune.

Forgot about that. I was thinkin back to when disintegrate was nasty vs undead...

Oh but if ypur GM starts makin it a habit.of throwing undead, you make a Graveborn Witch... then you can possess undead.

Oh you can grab metamagic to allowind affecting spells to affect undead... either or...


If you're playing a more necromantic-themed witch, two levels of Agent of the Grave is pretty fun.

Nothing like being able to use Slumber Hex on Skeletons.


Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

@Pixie

It gives a fort save, so undead are immune.

Forgot about that. I was thinkin back to when disintegrate was nasty vs undead...

Disintegrate works on Undead, they are not immune to all Fort save effects only those which do not work on objects.

Scarab Sages RPG Superstar 2013

Witches are great. Good flavor. Great spell list. Hexes are powerful and unique in the game. I admit when I first saw them I was underwhelmed, but that was mostly because of the radiant glow of the oracle class, which is absolutely my favorite class in Pathfinder.

But witches are great and perform just fine as the party's main arcane spellcaster.


witches are better than wizards because look at the iconics.... how do you want to hang with?

Ezren wont look to swell in a halter top and boddice.

Sovereign Court

Pixie, the Leng Queen wrote:
Snowblind wrote:

@Pixie

It gives a fort save, so undead are immune.

Forgot about that. I was thinkin back to when disintegrate was nasty vs undead...

Oh but if ypur GM starts makin it a habit.of throwing undead, you make a Graveborn Witch... then you can possess undead.

Oh you can grab metamagic to allowind affecting spells to affect undead... either or...

Undead are a bit limiting for witch hexes (immune to Slumber/Evil Eye/Icy Tomb) - but Misfortune still works on them. Unlike Evil Eye, it's not mind-affecting.

In addition - you still have spells.

Shadow Lodge

Not saying the Witch is weak or bad, just saying I've seen and heard of players walking away from games because they didn't want the challenge to be negated.

:P


Adventure Path Charter Subscriber; Pathfinder Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

The hex channeler archetype will give a (good) witch an option vs. undead. The only problem is that the Channel Energy feature doesn't improve automatically; you have to invest more hex choices in it. Still, it can also be used to heal (without the "once per day per creature" limitation on the Healing hex).


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

Before the latest batch of Errata, the Scarred Witch Doctor could even be decent in combat (get a Reach weapon and do the same kind of thing as a Reach Cleric, but tossing out Hexes most of the time instead of spells, while still fishing for AoOs). Unfortunately, the latest Errata nerfed that concept while making a Half-Orc Scarred Witch more powerful as a more-or-less standard Witch (did the developers forget that Half-Orcs can put their ability score bonus anywhere?).

The developers don't care about constraining overall caster power. Their only concern is constricting the styles a class can fulfill.

EDIT: and constraining overall martial power.


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The real question is what value does the rest of a party bring to the Witch?


Witches are really cool and versatile. All depends on how you build them.
-Hexes: really powerful as they ignore SR and do not provoke AO. Many GMs ban Slumber hex due to its usability and power. And they have infinite use per day. Did I mention flight hex - its beyond good.
-Witches are great crafters if you take feats. (High int and many different spells)
-Main roles are: Debuffer (evil eye, misfortune and caclkle hexes and adhesive spittle, Bestow curse, blindness/deafness spells), Buffer (soothsayer, fortune, cackle make it epic; if you take time patron you also get haste), Healer/Condition remover (you can be just as good as cleric at it, just pick right patron, even without it you have remove x spells and cure wounds spells), Battlefield control (summon monster spells, black tentacles), have some utility spells and can afford to prepare them due to being go through combat with only hexes. I don't recommend blaster types, but snowball is great spell (and witch has it).

What else? Coven hex - it breaks the game (either with collar, simulacrum or leadership you get a hag and freebies you get are beyond realization)

Beastbonded witch has one of strongest abilities in game - Twin soul. You literately can make Tarrasque your familiar like at 12tlh lvl.

Wizards run out of spells, but witches have endless hexes.


Kaouse wrote:
The real question is what value does the rest of a party bring to the Witch?

Spell components. Fresh and juicy spell components.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

The best answer as to what makes a witch valuable....

The player who takes best advantages of her hexes, and a spell list that straddles the arcane and divine.


DM Beckett wrote:

Not saying the Witch is weak or bad, just saying I've seen and heard of players walking away from games because they didn't want the challenge to be negated.

:P

The thing there is that the GM needs to avoid One Big Boss encounters. (That's a good idea in PF in general - large single opponents tend to get ganged up on or one-shotted by spells anyway.)


The witches various abilities are interesting in those One Big Boss encounters. Sure, you can stack modifiers on the boss until it can't make saves, but that takes time.
Do you use two rounds (& Cackle) to get Evil Eye and Misfortune to stick before dropping Slumber, or do you hope Slumber just works on the first shot?

I played a Evil Eye/Cackle witch for a few levels a while back and I'm not sure the Evil Eye ever actually mattered. Not sure an opponent ever actually failed a save by 1 or 2 points(or the same with whatever part I'd targeted.)

Shadow Lodge

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It's a full 9th level caster class where the spells are it's SECONDARY class feature.


^Which is why Hexcrafter Magus is also really good (although you do pick up Hexes more slowly, and they are competing with other Magus Arcana that you might actually need).

Also, Witch can even start debuffing multiple opponents at once if you are a Halfling with the Jinx alternate racial trait and jump through the appropriate feat hoops (DON'T VMC with this -- you need every feat you can get).


Kaouse wrote:

The real question is what value does the rest of a party bring to the Witch?

Minions and meatshields, mostly. Also a method to get around undead without having to specialize in that herself (they are often immune to her standard tricks)


Oh speaking of undead, witchs make NASTY necromancers. The Graveborn Witch is vicious in that she can body jack undead, has an aura to power them, amd she can turn spells into range touch attacks woth her poppet allowing her to heal up any large undead as she.needs... and makes for a NASTY bad touch caster...


Despite the wizard being the most powerful spellcaster, I like classes with class features, and find the wizard the most boring spellcasting class in the game. For that reason alone, I find the witch an excellent alternative for wizards with excellent class features. In fact the witch is my favorite arcane caster in Pathfinder. I'd even admit to avoiding playing a wizard at all, in the entire history of playing Pathfinder since its inception.

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