| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Does anyone else have the 3.5 Draconomicon? If not, I highly recommend it, and it may be the best non-core book from 3.0/3.5 aside from the Forgotten Realms campaign guide. Anyway, the Draconomicon gives example dragons for all off the color & metallic types at all ages. It gives advice on when to use a breath weapon versus melee attacks. It also gives rules and advice for how to assign feats to dragons. After all, that 1000-year-old Wyrm must have picked up a few tricks over the years.
With all that in mind, I try to play the dragons according to type. Whites tend to be more brutish and stupid, Blues more talkative and vain, etc. And dragons are *never* to be taken lightly. Even the smallest Wyrmling can TPK a low-level party.
I build each and every one. The bestiaries list a generic build, IMO.
I often add class levels.
I usually pick one of two roles for them: Caster or Melee. I will then build towards that.
I am not afraid to do nasty things like have Half Red-Black dragons (yes, they can cross-breed)-but don't do it often, it gets old after one or two times in a campaign.
I play them smart (if they are. Most are)-and oh so patient.
I tend to avoid Reds (the description of charging in and destroying stuff seems counter-intuitive to me), I lean towards Greens, Blues and Blacks.
I _love_ giving them Leadership, and abusing the CRAP out of it (like building healbots for them, tee hee).
Lairs are usually well hidding/protected (I use a lot of content from the Draconomicon).
I feel their listed CR is low, so even with what I'm doing, I only add to CR when I add class levels.
Oh, I also let them USE things from their hoard (which is generated randomly, as all treasure should be).
I warn parties ahead of time that my dragon WILL kill PCs.
I then run them as highly intelligent, well prepared beings with centuries of experience and substantial resources. Those resources will include both magical defenses/alarms and guardians.
If you ask "What would a cat do?" then you are doing it right.Vanish under the bed?
Swimming in gold is an excellent past-time. Besides, gotta off-set that size penalty to stealth somehow....
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Unless, as I suggested, high level adventurers are common enough to be a realistic possibility. Then treat them as such. Or if you've had reason to observe this particular group and realize they're dangerous. Perhaps while they're cutting their way through your minions, should you have some of those.Bingo!
If you think that your Dragon is stupid if they don't go full out against every enemy they face then you also think that your 12th level Wizard is a fool for not instantly yelling, "I cast Monster Summoning VI!" When he is faced with a single Goblin.
It's a bit of a different scenario with dragons.
Summon Monster VI is a finite resource.
Breath Weapon is not.
I don't have a problem with SOME dragons being suicidally overconfident (ala Smaug), but IMO most would have a healthy caution. Opening with a breath weapon strafe seems like a good simple tactic for ANY dragon, but doesn't constitute "pulling out all the stops".
If something survives that, then it's worth being even more cautious. If not...well, dinner's already cooked!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I tend to run dragons in much the same way others do. That being that they are very ancient, are prolific hoarders and usually do not meddle in common affairs. If they do, it is because they are either good and guiding other mortals in small ways, or evil and are throwing things in the way with progressively higher power to stomp it out. But there is one thing I guarantee whenever I have a dragon in a campaign.
Dragons are not wimps.
In some games it is totally acceptable to kill a dragon easily (Skyrim), but I tend to view dragons near the power of those in Shadowrun: Yeah, you know they exist, and if you know what is good for you, don't fight them. It only makes you look worse. Fighting a dragon (and I mean just fighting, not even slaying a dragon) is end of adventure level events.
That and I try to not make dragons easy to get to. If they are in a cave, they have quite a few traps and spells in place to stop people entering, they have their half-kin or bought off mercenaries that will protect their hoard, and even if they do get to the dragon, they will make short work of intruders unless a party is creative, or have multiple escape routes. With beings this old, they know what is up.
Heck in my own world, anything past adult dragon is basically stronger then a Kaiju, and some of the most ancient dragons are the size of mountain ranges.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Usually in humanoid form, interacting with the PCs, whether they know it or not. My favourite wyrm has always been the silver variety (rather than, say, the powerhouse that is their gold cousin).
|
I figure treasure is a Dragon's Catnip.
Also, toying with lesser creatures, the way a cat toys with a mouse.
Add all the ancient knowledge, high intelligence, and you get what I figure is the best combo.
There is no reason to think that Dragons have similar thinking to Humans.
So, a smart Human, and a smart Dragon, likely think, and therefore behave, very differently.
Chromatic dragons - as colossally arrogant megalomaniacs. The sort who would choose pride over prudence nearly every time, would crawl to hell and back to retrieve a single stolen copper, and would sooner bite their tongue off than openly admit any sort of weakness or need in others. Tactics-wise most have several a couple routines of tricks that have worked on everything so far and tend to go into frothing rage and denial when this time opponents refuse to go down.
Metallic dragons - as schemers. They do not enjoy fighting, and know that even if they really do not have any significant treasure, many people, particularly many adventurers, would never ever believe that, so they prefer to avoid unneccessary violence by hiding themselves, masquerading as humanoids and working through intermediaries. Ideally they prefer to be a power behind some reasonably benevolent throne. Tactically they use the normal arcane spellcaster routines (you better be ready for some scry&fry if you've decided to mess with a metallic dragon's homeland), if they are old enough to do so, except with a physicaly powerful form as a backup.
Both types are quite rare and unusual. Dragons are supposed to be a big deal, the things that can devastate whole kingdoms if you wake them up in a wrong time, so they have to be rare.
You didn't get there by being stupid, overconfident, and arrogant to the point of willfully underestimating every opponent you run into.
Neither you got there be being paranoid, extra careful, and, in short, timid. Those are blatantly self-destructive traits that sap will and make people, even those people are gigantic fantasy reptiles, sit on their thumbs in self-doubt, when decisive action is required. To win, you must have enough boldness to gamble.
I remember it being called out in the red dragon entry (though I might have my editions mixed up) that red dragons normally hold off on using their breath weapon because it wrecks the treasure.
Though do keep in mind that dragons can very quickly tell when they aren't dealing with chumps - frightful presence afflicts anything with 4 or less hit dice with the panicked condition. (Which also means that normally, a dragon can take out 99% of a town by just buzzing it.)
I will also note that the dragons that are remembered are the ones that are old and bold.
I run my dragons like nightmares made flesh.
I insure that there is good reason as to why angles and deamons cower in fear of the beasties.
I'll be blunt a single mature dragon with no minions or traps should be a solid challenge for a high level party (18th to 20th level)
there is a trilogy of novels set in Forgotten Realms that deals with dragons called The Year of Rogue Dragons.
for me it really depends on the dragon its self because each one is different in temperament and I would also have to keep the age category in mind as well
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Two words;Circle Strafe
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't buy the whole overconfidence thing. Maybe if it's like, a Wyrmling sure but if it's lived a few years you gotta figure it knows EXACTLY how fragile it is. Consider:
A wyrmling black dragon is born into a swamp. Said environment is filled with MANY creatures around a CR 1/3 - 1. Unless these creatures line up in a straight line then that CR 3 monster has PLENTY of threats to it. Yes, the dragon is a bada$$ but after a few scrapes with 2 or 3 bullywugs suddenly it begins to get it - there's some strategy to fighting.
Now if the dragon is even one age category older, a Very Young, it's survived at LEAST 6 years. The word to remember is "survived." Sure, if a dragon was born at Adult level power then it would be an overconfident oaf. If it's fought and clawed and breath weaponed their way to Juvenile it's not going to be like "ok, NOW I can just sit back on my laurels and phone it in!"
No, IMO dragons are smart, cunning and have survived threats for ages. For years they've grown into their power and battled along the way. Add this together and dragons should not just be sitting around yawning as the party approaches.
Lastly, most dragons get the chance to communicate with or dominate certain creatures. Its programmed into their DNA to control other monsters. If a dragon can get some kobolds to defend them suddenly they've got a poky meat-shield that buys them a round to get in the air or whatever.
I tend to run dragons in much the same way others do. That being that they are very ancient, are prolific hoarders and usually do not meddle in common affairs. If they do, it is because they are either good and guiding other mortals in small ways, or evil and are throwing things in the way with progressively higher power to stomp it out. But there is one thing I guarantee whenever I have a dragon in a campaign.
Dragons are not wimps.
In some games it is totally acceptable to kill a dragon easily (Skyrim), but I tend to view dragons near the power of those in Shadowrun: Yeah, you know they exist, and if you know what is good for you, don't fight them. It only makes you look worse. Fighting a dragon (and I mean just fighting, not even slaying a dragon) is end of adventure level events.
That and I try to not make dragons easy to get to. If they are in a cave, they have quite a few traps and spells in place to stop people entering, they have their half-kin or bought off mercenaries that will protect their hoard, and even if they do get to the dragon, they will make short work of intruders unless a party is creative, or have multiple escape routes. With beings this old, they know what is up.
Heck in my own world, anything past adult dragon is basically stronger then a Kaiju, and some of the most ancient dragons are the size of mountain ranges.
So you modify the stats/size in your world?
Because a normal old adult dragon is nothing close to power of a Kaiju.
Hubris incarnate. With the actual backing-up for a CR Ouch encounter.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Hubris incarnate. With the actual backing-up for a CR Ouch encounter.
What about between ouch and boing? :)
|
At high levels I would tend to think that many dragons would be reckless and bold in the field. They do not bring their items with them and they have get out of death cards. If they die this is minor set back.
Lairs on the other hand are much more terrifying since a loss here means losing treasure and maybe life.
Yeah, dragons of significant power would probably be rocking clones. Or, if they're particularly nasty, keep their lair on a demiplane adjacent to the astral plane and would astral project to the material plane when they want to hunt adventurers. That way they can simultaneously throw caution to the wind AND not have to pay for it.
Hubris incarnate. With the actual backing-up for a CR Ouch encounter.What about between ouch and boing? :)
WOW! Sorry, couldn't resist...
Heck in my own world, anything past adult dragon is basically stronger then a Kaiju, and some of the most ancient dragons are the size of mountain ranges.
So you modify the stats/size in your world?
Because a normal old adult dragon is nothing close to power of a Kaiju.
Sorry for the late reply. Yes, if I decide to incorporate dragons into campaigns, chances are they are end game of the end game. Mostly because unlike almost every other high CR creature in the Pathfinder Bestiaries, Dragons are found in the Material Plane, so its easier to incorporate then say a Pit Lord. Cause if that thing is roaming around, the whole of Golarion is screwed.
As for the rough power level of dragons, I'll give some examples as a better indicator of how seriously I take dragons. Imagine Smaug from The Hobbit. His age would be Adult, but his stat-line would be closer to Ancient, or 4 stat steps higher then his age.
If I ever added a Great Wyrm, those things would basically be Ancalagon, but bigger. Not a mountain size, a mountain range size. Following the way I bumped Smaug up, this Great Wyrm would have a 4 stat steps higher then the listed stats for Great Wyrm.
Basically, if a dragon is Ancient or higher, you should just do nice things, or find something very specific to take it out, cause those things will wreck you.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Dragons run the gamut from sadistic bullies to aloof hermits. I ignore the alignment entries and make all dragons unique.
Younger dragons tend to want to interact with other races more, some by genuinely helping, some by being sadistic, and some by manipulating humanoids like pieces in a chess game to suit their own amusement or ideology.
The older they get, the more withdrawn they become and more likely they are to just be left alone.
Of course, there are exceptions.