So we were going through some adventure that involved a few days of travel at certain points. Well one of the players caught a disease near the start of one of the not traveling bits, we the. Preceded to kick butt and do whatever else were to do. So we did another bit of travel and I realized that the disease should have taken effect during that time so I reminded the GM to roll to see the effects of the disease since he had forgotten. I was promptly yelled at being told to shut up by another player, not even the one who contracted said disease.
Should I have not said anything? I can't help that I tend to be stickler for these small details, I'm like a rules-lawyer except I more point out little things like this rather than correcting people on rules. I try not to say to much about things that may harm someone else's character after this incident but I tend to point these out instinctively. I should also point out that I do in fact point out things that will harm my characters as well that people have forgotten about. I. One scenario I found myself hog tied on top of a lighthouse alone, with no chance of freeing myself, then the enemies bombarded the place with flaming arrows and fire began to spread on top of the lighthouse. My teammates would've had much more time to save me had I not reminded the GM that there was a 20 gallon barrel of whale oil next to me. I promptly died.
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How angry was the other person? I mean, I can see where they thought they were getting away with something, and really wanted to. On the other hand, this "hide stuff from the teacher and get away with things" attitude doesn't really belong at a table of nominally adults playing a game together.... (And 10-year olds can be "adults" in this context.)
What you did was not a jerk move. This was just reminding everybody what's going on. As a GM, I like it when players remind me of things I've forgotten.
He just yelled shut up along with a sort wtf are you serious kind of look. I would however like to reiterate that the person who yelled at me was not the one who contracted the disease, that player actually didn't say anything.
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"Teacher, teacher! You forgot to give us homework!"
That said...
I think it is fine to mention something when the DM slips up... players are quick to mention something when it is in their favor, so it is only fair play.
I tend to be a rules stickler in PFS because if those are the rules I was supposed to make my character by, then those are the rules I expect to play by. Both as a player and a GM.
People getting mad like that seems like a basic case of someone being upset that they got caught trying to get away with something.
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Not a jerk move IMO, I have been GM'ing a long time, and like rknop I like when players let me know if I have forgotten something. One, means they are paying attention, and two, generally means they are honest, so the heck with the other guy, long walk off a short pier for him.
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I do the same thing when I'm playing, whether it's me or another player. I'm fond of saying stuff like, "I move to this square, provoking from this guy and this guy."
As one of my players likes to state, "It's everyone's responsibility to maintain game state." And I can't argue that. To be fair, he's something of a rules lawyer, but I can't complain when he argues against himself as often as for the party. At least I never feel like he's trying to slip something by me.
"Teacher, teacher! You forgot to give us homework!"
Awww, don't compare me to that guy. :(
I feel this is nowhere near that level of an offense.
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It was a joke dude(ette?).
The point is that some people get mad when they think someone is trying to make it hard on them, or is working against them. As long as you are evenhanded about your reminders... and they don't turn into protracted discussions that slow down the game unduly... there is nothing wrong with giving the GM reminders, in his favor and in yours, when something slips his mind... hell, I know with my old, battered, addled brain, things will be forgotten when I GM or play, and a friendly reminder is appreciated.
@blackbloodtroll: No, no one else said anything about it. We just rolled for the player's ailments.
@nosig: I feel like I've noticed these schools of playing, I'm thinking that most of the people In my local pfs group save one of them fall into school one, and I'm probably in two.
@Fomsie: They are evenhanded in the sense that I will chime in whether who it helps or hinders, however I can't say whether an equal amount of instances of me helping or hurting have occurred. I mentioned that I essentially ruined any chance of my character being saved in an attempt to show that I don't cherry pick what I remind the GM of. Also "dude" is the correct one. :P
Ah no worries, there all nice people generally speaking. Also the guy who did the yelling isn't typically at the place I normally play, I usually only see him when I occasionally make the trip to Charleston to play.
Mainly since no one seemed to upset with the guy for yelling I felt that maybe I actually did do something wrong, so I was wondering if I went against some sort of unwritten code I was unaware of.
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Honest to a fault, eh?
While I certainly have a stance that the integrity of the game should be maintained, I often find myself overlooking or even forgetting the small details. Diseases especially since inoculation time usually takes awhile. I've probably let off more players than I am aware of concerning the matter.
I don't think it's a jerk move, but I definitely can see where someone would feel that way. My best advice to you is to just let the GM be the GM. Sometimes things get forgotten, which is OK to a point. Only on critical situations do I feel that such reminders are a responsibility.
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oh, I don't know.
I can see having another player point out that we had forgot about the disease - only to have someone else (me perhaps) jump in with:
"Hay! I'm a Chirurgeon (Alchemist) - I totally got this guys! I'll take 10 on the Heal check, and use a Healers kit for a +2, and maybe I can get in an Anti-Plague that I crafted two games back for ... ah... 31. Yeah, a 31. Does he improve?"
Gives me a chance to show off some.
;-)
Edit to add:(Unless the judge is a School #1 type and says something like "You forgot to bring it up 10 minutes ago, so you guys didn't notice the disease set in and missed the chance to treat it! Gotcha!")
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A major pet peeve of mine is when players try to get away with stuff because I may not be at the top of my game for whatever reason.
If you remember something and willfully dont bring it up to get an advantage, you are cheating.
I am much in the same thought, as a GM there is a fair amount to remember and keep track of.
Conditions like poison, disease and negative conditions such as fatigue, blindness, deafened I leave up to my players to track on their time. If it comes up that they are actively not tracking those I would consider it cheating as well. Not that there is much I would or could do in that instance but it definitely makes me unwilling to GM for that person.
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We just throw the dice retroactively if something was forgotten during play. Obviously this doesn't work for everyone.
Reminds me of the time a friend's char almost died post-game thanks to ghoul fever(iirc). Or maybe we should credit our homicidal irc dice bot. I can never tell.
*sacrifices some of his blood to turn away Bones' evil eye, just in case*
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A major pet peeve of mine is when players try to get away with stuff because I may not be at the top of my game for whatever reason.
If you remember something and willfully dont bring it up to get an advantage, you are cheating.
I am much in the same thought, as a GM there is a fair amount to remember and keep track of.
Conditions like poison, disease and negative conditions such as fatigue, blindness, deafened I leave up to my players to track on their time. If it comes up that they are actively not tracking those I would consider it cheating as well. Not that there is much I would or could do in that instance but it definitely makes me unwilling to GM for that person.
Also if you know how a rule works, and you know the GM doesn't, this is not a time to purposefully get the rule wrong to your benefit.
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You did the right thing noble peasant.
I myself might have said "What are you doing!"as a player in that situation and rolled my eyes, but I'd have intended it humorously, rather than as a rebuke. I wouldn't have objected to someone trying to ensure we got the game right.
If I were the GM, I'd have been grateful for the reminder, as I have been for the reminders from my players on whatever it is that I've forgotten <i>this</i> session! There's always something.
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I have no problem reminding the DM when they forget a detail that affects me.
I.e. Last night I hit a handmaiden devil with chain lightning. The player after me hit the same creature with disintegrate. The DM then asked for an SR check, knowing that he did not ask for me to make one I reminded him.
For other players, I like to point it out to them first and give them the chance to fix the situation themselves.
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Or it could be that some players see the GM as a referee.
In sporting events sometimes you get away with an infraction of the rules because the referee fails to notice it.
I think some players see RPGs the same way and thus see your pointing out the rule to the "referee" as playing against the team.
These players tend to see the game in terms of winning or losing rather than telling the story. Where winning means succeeding at the goals of adventure and remaining alive.
Jerk move? Heck no. It's a kissass move and, as a GM, I heartily approve.
In all seriousness, I think you did right. It's not really a kissass move, per se. You're just trying to play fairly.
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You have my sympathy. I was in a similar situation at a Con I was attending where the locals all seemed to have the belief that Trap Sense worked like Trap Spotter. I was too uncomfortable to say anything to correct the GM. I try to avoid correcting the GM in game play unless I think a PC is going to die as a result, but I think there is nothing wrong with pointing out something you think the GM missed.
I did make a point of talking to new players to correct the misconception and I sent a message to the local VC to make him aware of the widespread misconception in his area. Note, I did not do this to point fingers, I don't think I even offered specific names, I just wanted to give them a chance to work to correct the misconception.
I do the same things all of the time during a game, no matter what side of the screen I'm on. I'll remind other players if they've forgotten their own spell effects and the like, and I've had players get angry with me for reminding the GM of things they had forgotten, but I've never cared. In the mix of everything that's going on, without even adding distractions in, its easy to forget little bits and pieces. Its about the integrity of the game.
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In this specific instance noble peasant, it was not only not a jerk move, it is specifically the sort of thing a player should make an effort to remind GMs about.
As others in the thread have said more eloquently, GMs have 101 things to think about while running a game, and long-lasting conditions with little immediate dramatic impact (like diseases) are even more easily forgotten.
Players, having less to do all the time than a GM, should in my opinion make an effort to remember and remind GMs of these things - they are by no means obligated to do so, but it is actively good for a game if they do.
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In my opinion, you did the right thing for the right reason. I could see that some folks might not be thrilled you reminded the GM of an adverse condition on them but - to me - that's not so different than reminding the GM of a beneficial condition for a PC ("hey, don't forget misfortune", "did you include inspire courage?"). I've been on both sides of the same issue as both a GM and a player. Regardless, sorry if you were treated disrecpectfully when it occurred.
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+1 that you did the right thing.
Especially in PFS, where the GM is your shepherd taking you through an adventure, everyone is there to participate in the game and "take on" the adventure fairly and together and to have their PCs challenged.
If you were playing a cooperative boardgame (with no GM), where it's "you versus the game", the general context is that everyone playing tries to understand and point out all the little modifiers that add up to whatever the current challenge is.
Keep up the good work, and if playing the game clearly and fairly seems to aggravate the guy who (if he was serious) says "shut up", he's probably one less player your gamedays need around in order to make everyone's collective experience better.
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Yes, it was a jerk move. You really owe that player an apology. Remember: The GM is never a friend. Don't help him play his side.
Kidding. Just couldn't stand all this rational consensus.
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I'm the same way. It's being an honest rules lawyer. Not doing it is sort of like cheating to me. I feel bad for this.
@graywulfe, I've seen people use the assumption that people going into dangerous situations are checking for traps routinely. It's often to avoid spending three hours saying "I check for traps" at every situation and then getting hit the one time you forget it.
Yes. Thank you.
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I'm the same way. It's being an honest rules lawyer. Not doing it is sort of like cheating to me. I feel bad for this.
@graywulfe, I've seen people use the assumption that people going into dangerous situations are checking for traps routinely. It's often to avoid spending three hours saying "I check for traps" at every situation and then getting hit the one time you forget it.
And I am okay with working with that assumption. What I am talking about was not that, it was a GM saying "you don't need to search for traps, all Rogues get Trap Sense which causes you to get a free perception check against any trap you get within range of." Or something like that. It was a blatantly wrong interpretation of the rules.
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Yes, it was a jerk move. You really owe that player an apology. Remember: The GM is never a friend. Don't help him play his side.
Kidding. Just couldn't stand all this rational consensus.
Funnily enough, depending on the GM, I agree with this sentiment. Though, on the same note, I try not to play with those GMs.
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And I am okay with working with that assumption. What I am talking about was not that, it was a GM saying "you don't need to search for traps, all Rogues get Trap Sense which causes you to get a free perception check against any trap you get within range of." Or something like that. It was a blatantly wrong interpretation of the rules.I'm the same way. It's being an honest rules lawyer. Not doing it is sort of like cheating to me. I feel bad for this.
@graywulfe, I've seen people use the assumption that people going into dangerous situations are checking for traps routinely. It's often to avoid spending three hours saying "I check for traps" at every situation and then getting hit the one time you forget it.
I rule it as "I assume you are all taking 10 on Perception as you go along unless you are actively doing something else. Let me know if you want to spend more time searching or do something else."
Since I have all of their Perception bonuses on their cards, I just glance through and see if anyone's take 10 can notice the thing. If someone has trap spotter, I'll also roll for them.
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Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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It is hard to gauge when to disrupt the game and mention possible mistakes to your GM.
My suggestion would be to talk to your GM and the other players ahead of starting the game and talk about this eventually.
When in doubt, try to mention it in the form of a question, that way the GM has the chance to save his face (and there is a pretty good chance that the other players might not appreciate your silence either).
I recently though I had found an error, and decided not to mention it since I assumed that it might be a exception in the trap. Later it turned out, that I was wrong and should have mentioned it. Bad feelings for everybody.
And the dirty little secret is, when I GM I make mistakes (and just like when I forget a +1 here and there when I play, if I mess up, players just got lucky) the only time where I actually rectify the situation, is when it puts the players at a disadvantage.
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And I am okay with working with that assumption. What I am talking about was not that, it was a GM saying "you don't need to search for traps, all Rogues get Trap Sense which causes you to get a free perception check against any trap you get within range of." Or something like that. It was a blatantly wrong interpretation of the rules.I'm the same way. It's being an honest rules lawyer. Not doing it is sort of like cheating to me. I feel bad for this.
@graywulfe, I've seen people use the assumption that people going into dangerous situations are checking for traps routinely. It's often to avoid spending three hours saying "I check for traps" at every situation and then getting hit the one time you forget it.
I rule it as "I assume you are all taking 10 on Perception as you go along unless you are actively doing something else. Let me know if you want to spend more time searching or do something else."
Since I have all of their Perception bonuses on their cards, I just glance through and see if anyone's take 10 can notice the thing. If someone has trap spotter, I'll also roll for them.
I'm confused. Are you arguing with me??? Because, I am saying people were wrong about how a class feature worked and naming the class feature specifically. That is nothing like what you described.
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'Tis all about the tone. Which is really hard to determine on the boards here. It could be a jerk move if the tone used sounded like the homework quote above (regardless of what was said :). If the tone sounded patronizing I would be inclined to respond similarly (especially if the GM was a woman, a kid, or very new). If players had been correcting/questioning the GM for the previous 3 hours, even politely, it might have gone too far for me.
Likewise the tone of the responding player might imply different things. Again, I can't tell here. It might mean the person had a headache and it was just too loud. (It could have been an in character statement, because: disease :). Maybe if the tone implies "duuuude..." it might be interpreted more kindly. Can't say.
Let me clarify: reminding the GM like you said is not a jerk move. Shouting at the table, spraying cheetoh crumbs, whining, adding condescending tone while you remind them, could be interpreted as a jerk move. I am not saying you did any of these things.
When in doubt, try to mention it in the form of a question, that way the GM has the chance to save his face (and there is a pretty good chance that the other players might not appreciate your silence either).
Sebastian makes a good point. Another common trick is make sure to smile real big. A smile can be heard through the phone it should help at the table. I have started asking a question and stopping midway. "Wait did.... Nevermind, I wouldn't know that in-character." It's a classroom trick to get everyone trying to remember what they know that their characters don't and someone will then ask for the info. Granted at a game table it feels a little manipulative, but the point is a question gets people thinking.
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People forget things, nothing wrong with reminding them. I forgot during a long combat to have a player roll for saves vs a poison he inhaled for a couple of rounds. A player reminded and we moved on. The GM should have told the player to relax. I would like to think the player was joking around, but I get the feeling that he was not. Worry not and keep rolling. Be honest. Its just a game.
In my opinion, it is a matter of degree and rate of occurrence.
I have seen groups with a guy that continually stops to the game to point out and correct tiny little slip ups. Eventually, it is no longer helpful and is just annoying.
On the other hand occasionally pointing out significant/meaningful things is helpful.
One of the nice things about roll20 is the ability to whisper to the GM that he's forgotten something. I've been on both ends of that.
It can be tough on the GM - with running multiple people in combat, remembering buffs, etc...
In the group I play with now (And have been playing with the past three years) we're pretty trustworthy about keeping our own stuff on the level and do take time out to discuss the rules. But then again we firmly fall into the "party + GM is collectively making a story" category.
So we would welcome a player who reminded us of a plot point we missed.
