why are mounted charge rules so complicated


Rules Questions

Vigilant Seal

So the issue I ran into is during a mounted charge (paladin and horse mount), my table couldn't figure out the actions taken. so a normal horse requires a free action to steer with the human legs.

but I decide to charge so
1) who's move action is getting used
2) who gets the bonus to the damage
3) can both the paladin and the horse attack at the end of the charge?
4) if the paladin has a reach weapon where does the charge stop?

not to mention all the feats that are a muddled mess, like spring attack on the horse.


1)Horse is taking a full round action to charge. I believe the paladin has to take a full round action charging too, but I am not certain on that
2)Bonus damage is a Lance thing when used from a mount. Horse doesn't get anything.
3)In *theory*, both are entitled to an attack at the end of the charge. In reality, see 4)
4)Barring something like Ride-by attack, it's the first square the Paladin can attack the target from. This means that the Lance wielding Paladin stops his(and the horses) charge 10ft away from the target, and thus the horse never gets close enough to beat face with it's hooves.

Grand Lodge

They are both charging. They both get +2 to hit and -2 to AC. You stop charging at the first square either of them can make an attack from. If the paladin has reach and the mount does not, then the mount will not be able to attack as he is not close enough--you can get around this with Ride-by Attack. If your mount has reach and you do not then Ride-by Attack will not help.

Relevant FAQ wrote:

Mounted Combat: When making a charge while mounted, which creature charges? The rider or the mount?

Both charge in unison, suffer the same penalty to AC, the gaining the same bonus to the attack rolls and following all other rules for the charge. The mounted combat rules are a little unclear on this. Replace the third paragraph under the "Combat while Mounted" section on page 202 with the following text. Note that a "mounted charge" is synonymous with a "charge while mounted," and that when a lance is "when used from the back of a charging mount" it is during a mounted charge not when only the mount charges.

A mounted charge is a charge made by you and your mount. During a mounted charge, you deal double damage with your first melee attack made with a lance or with any weapon if you have Spirited Charge (or a similar effect), or you deal triple damage with a lance and Spirited Charge.

Scarab Sages

I always felt that the Mounted combat rules were overly complicated. When I wrote The Very Last Book About Mounted Combat, one of the things I included was simple "mounted" template that PCs could use which basically just gives a fixed set of bonuses and otherwise allows combat to continue as normal.


Because they were inherited from 3.5, where they were very poorly written.

And Paizo didn't bother to update them either, which meant we have lots of problems with mounted combat rules.

We've asked in threads multiple times before for FAQs, clarifications, and rewrites. But I think Paizo just has too much going on to try and rewrite the mounted combat rules, especially when they're concerned about spacing (any rewrite would need to fit in the original spacing) including alterations to feats.

It becomes a monumentally difficult task to do.


Really? They are more concerned with spacing than making sure correct, clear and accurate rules get published? Wow, talk about having messed up priorities. I'm not doubting you, btw, just surprised if that is true.


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Lune wrote:
Really? They are more concerned with spacing than making sure correct, clear and accurate rules get published? Wow, talk about having messed up priorities. I'm not doubting you, btw, just surprised if that is true.

They are concerned with spacing because if they change it they have to change every reference to every subsequent page of the core rule book, where the mounted combat rules are written.

Not just references with the CRB, but with every other book Paizo has ever published. Because they would all be wrong.

There priorities aren't messed up, because it isn't a simple as you think it is. I had thought the same when I first heard it, but when I delved further into the question I realized that it's a monstrous problem that is not easily solvable.


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they need to make some big blog post telling all the rules, I think that's their best way of dealing with mounted combat.


What Claxon is saying is that if Paizo replaces the mounted combat rules with any new rules that are longer (take up more space), it bumps whatever is at the bottom of that page to the next page. And bumps whatever is at the bottom of the next page to the page after that. And stuff keeps getting bumped all the way until the end of chapter at least, and maybe even until the end of the book if the amount of extra material was big enough.

That means stuff that used to be on page 401 is now on page 402. And if there are other places in the book that say "Look at the rule on page 401" then all those other places need to be corrected to say "Look at the rule on page 402".

And not just that ONE thing on page 401, but EVERYTHING everywhere in the book might now be on different pages so EVERY page reference might need to be corrected.

And not just this one book but other books might say "Look at the rule in the core rulebook on page 297" and now all those other books, EVERY book they have published, needs to have ALL their references corrected too.

What a publishing nightmare, especially if they have to do it EVERY time they change some rule somewhere.

So Paizo just avoids it. Entirely. All errata that actually change the text of any book must take the same amount of space as the rules that are being replaced so nothing gets bumped and no corrections need to be made.


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber

So what we need is a series of blog posts like the old "Rules of the Game: All About Mounts" set of four.


SlimGauge wrote:
So what we need is a series of blog posts like the old "Rules of the Game: All About Mounts" set of four.

Yes basically. They've done it with poisons and animal companions to explain things that really required more thorough in depth explanation and should have been in the rules , but where they lacked the space to do so.

However, Paizo hasn't done this for mounted combat. I suspect because they don't know how to change it yet. I'm sure they're aware of the issues, but don't how to make everything work out the way it's intended.

Actually, let me restate that. I'm not sure everyone on the rules team even agrees on what is intended in this specific case.


Oh,no. I understood perfectly. It is still prioritizing spacing in the book over correct, clear and accurate rules.

I understand the complications involved due to them frequently referencing page numbers rather than section (another mistake). I do not think that a proper solution to this problem is to only make errata if it fits in the same space.


In answer to question 4), the paladin makes his attack with the reach weapon as soon as he is at the proper range to do so. The charge does not stop there as the mount continues its charge until the mount is in range to make its melee attack at the end of the charge.

As has already been stated, the rules are unclear on this topic but that's how I would rule it.


but the rider is charging too and needs to stop at the closes space for him to attack as the rules.


This is one of those cases where I think the FAQ made it more confusing. The mount is still the one actually *moving* so the move should end when the mount finishes its charge.


Remember that Pathfinder is still a simulationist game. The rules only serve us insofar as they simulate what would actually happen if a mounted character with a lance (or other reach weapon) went charging full-tilt on a mount to attack a creature. The end result of that scenario would not, in my imagination, be a character holding a lance and levitating in the air while his mount charges on because the rules said he had to stop at the 10-foot mark.

Vigilant Seal

I would tend to agree that the mount would continue their movement to finish the charge, I see this as they both start movement for the paladin and the mount's respective charges. the palading "stops" when his lance connects with the enemy, however the mount then "moves" him as they are attached (same as a bullrush or other effect) to finish it's charge action.

so technically they are both stopping at the first available space and both finishing their action. just the paladin in this case was forced to move by being "attached" to the mount.

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