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This makes me sad. Sigh. So it's either inspire courage or battlesong of the people's revolt? I guess Masterpieces are just for bards who traded off inspire courage...
Hmm
No!!!! Say it ain't so!
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I actually prefer for masterpieces to be bardic performances since it means that everything applies consistently.
That is, you can continue a masterpiece indefinitely with a tuned bowstring and endless ammunition, can have your familiar perform a masterpiece if you are a Duettist bard, Discordant Voice causes sonic damage on ally attacks while you are performing a masterpiece, Fey Performance can extend the range and targets of masterpieces, et cetera.
If masterpieces are not bardic performances then dozens of spells, items, feats, traits, et cetera that provide bonuses with bardic performances would not apply to masterpieces.
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Why would paizo let bards use masterpieces and let them apply while you were inspiring courage? They're not prepared arcane casters, why should they get anything fun? |D
I actually prefer for masterpieces to be bardic performances since it means that everything applies consistently.
That is, you can continue a masterpiece indefinitely with a tuned bowstring and endless ammunition, can have your familiar perform a masterpiece if you are a Duettist bard, Discordant Voice causes sonic damage on ally attacks while you are performing a masterpiece, Fey Performance can extend the range and targets of masterpieces, et cetera.
If masterpieces are not bardic performances then dozens of spells, items, feats, traits, et cetera that provide bonuses with bardic performances would not apply to masterpieces.
Currently though, masterpieces get the worst of both worlds by most people's interpretations: only a seldom few Masterpieces benefit from lingering performance; completely open to interpretation if Master Performer and the like boost it; same goes for tuned bowstring. A simple interpretation like "Masterpieces are bardic performances in every way, shape, and form - they adhere to and benefit from all rules regarding bardic performances," would prohibit having Masterpieces and performances like inspire courage up simultaneously, but at least Masterpieces would get a clear ruling.
This would still be a kick in the teeth and Masterpieces like "The Dance of 23 Steps", "The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King", and "Pallavi of Nirvana’s Blossoming", and "Triple Time" would become all but useless if their effects immediately ended when you began any other performance, but at least we'd all agree how Masterpieces worked - "poorly".
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This would still be a kick in the teeth and Masterpieces like "The Dance of 23 Steps", "The Requiem of the Fallen Priest-King", and "Pallavi of Nirvana’s Blossoming", and "Triple Time" would become all but useless if their effects immediately ended when you began any other performance
That's actually a separate FAQ (item 2 in the OP). Many don't believe that the effects of performances (or masterpieces) which carry on after the performance ends get cut off if a new performance is begun.
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Remember folks, my conversation was with John Compton (a knowledgeable fellow, but not a designer that is making these decisions). He does more than generally know his stuff though, and it was in a public setting where I was a player at a game. Nothing's been set in stone with a passing comment to a player at PaizoCon. Heck, maybe I'm completely nuts (although I've had what I heard confirmed by a fellow player). You're still free to run as you see fit (though as always, expect table variation if you're running in an official PFS game).
But as I said, until I hear otherwise, I have my answer as a player and a GM. I've wound up rebuilding two PFS characters because of this.
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I know, and I appreciate the heads-up. I just cannot understand this. Masterpieces are great fun. Don't they see that by making this ruling, they are making them so undesirable as to be completely irrelevant?
There may actually be a chance to use a masterpiece for Joliet. She's an Averakan Arbiter Bard (w/bloodrager dip) with a Skald buddy (w/bloodrager dip), and I'm planning on Battlefield of the People's Revolt. Giving Amplified Rage to the entire raging party (if we have a melee group) may be the only thing worth trading off inspire courage. But I'll have to do the math, because inspire courage at 6th level with +2 to hit and damage may still be the better trade.
Sigh. So one of my bards may get a use out of masterpieces... But that's the only one!
Hmm
Guess it is like so many other things in the game:
Actually decent option in terms of power <> Option that you actually want to make because it is cool
Well... i usually prefer power to cool myself in this case :P, but i wonder what others are going to select haha. Inspire courage is staying with me.
Most of the things in the game that are powerful are cool.
A lot of the things that are awful sound cool by their name. Then you read what they do, sigh, and move on
Well to be fair, "cool" is a really subjetive thing.
But on my opinion and experience, what i atleast find cool usually is never the best option from a mechanical point of view.
Hell, i count it lucky when it isnt borderline useless.
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Nothing since the 13th? Sorry guys, but this needs a bump. It needs to be addressed instead of forgotten. The ruling should be to make them relevant rather than useless.
Without a clear answer one way or the other, those masterpieces aren't of much use. Surely they were intended as more than just something to raise the word-count?
Without a clear answer one way or the other, those masterpieces aren't of much use. Surely they were intended as more than just something to raise the word-count?
Indeed. That is all they end up being is useless words. Unacceptable for such a creative idea.
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My bard spent a feat on Triple Time because it's handy. If the ruling goes against [u]MASTERPIECES[/u] not stacking with bardic performance, I'd like to know what Lingering Performance does to it, since it takes 1 round of performance for one hour.
Does it give three hours?
Does it get counted as a 'loss' for lingering?
Does everyone dance to the funky beat while they're marching?
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My bard spent a feat on Triple Time because it's handy. If the ruling goes against [u]MASTERPIECES[/u] not stacking with bardic performance, I'd like to know what Lingering Performance does to it, since it takes 1 round of performance for one hour.
While it only uses up one round worth of bardic performance ability, it actually requires one minute of performing the tune.
Does it give three hours?
Lingering Performance has no effect on Triple Time... or any other bardic masterpiece which doesn't specifically list it as an exception.
Does it get counted as a 'loss' for lingering?
I don't believe it should interact with other performances at all, with or without lingering. Once you've finished the one minute activation time and 'spent' the bardic performance round the masterpiece performance is done. The magical effect it created persists for an hour, but that is different from the performance itself and continues regardless of whether you engage in other performances / masterpieces. You can't (normally) perform two things at the same time, but effects that continue after the performance ends do not get cancelled by another performance.
Does everyone dance to the funky beat while they're marching?
Probably not.
Bumping as I really don't want this forgotten or swept under the rug.
These really are innovative and fun. I want to see them actually viable rather than lamentable.
Seriously, DON'T do that. I'd prefer a nice Chelaxian queue to a Galtese fiasco any day.
No worries. This is one of the harder FAQs. On one side you have an entire expansion mechanism that is rarely used and has unclear rules. On the other side you have the idea of allowing the Bard to have greater ability and usage than they currently have. The game balance choices are a lot larger in this issue than in other FAQs.
If you want a quick answer it's easy, "NO, they can't work at the same time." Done.
Do you want that FAQ? Do you?
I imagine most of the people of this FAQ are wanting them to work together. This is the harder one to figure out. Also, if the answer would still be no after looking at possible interactions, maybe the DEVs can word it in a way that changes how things work so that some work together or something.
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No worries. This is one of the harder FAQs. On one side you have an entire expansion mechanism that is rarely used and has unclear rules. On the other side you have the idea of allowing the Bard to have greater ability and usage than they currently have. The game balance choices are a lot larger in this issue than in other FAQs.
I see no game balance issues at all. Bardic Performance is a finite resource. If anything, it would make feats like Extra Performance more relevant because people want to use it more because of these intriguing Masterpieces that can be used in conjunction with Inspire Courage, et al. Charge more performance to use them simultaneously, if you must (like Virtuoso Performance).
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I've come to terms that not everything is worth revisiting. There are knockout Pathfinder things out there, but sometimes, there's also stuff you should just forget about.
You simply don't need these Masterpieces to make a good bard. Better to forget and move on.
PS: a GM once declared my 15th level bard (no archetype) the "most powerful member of the party" (yes, we had a sorcerer too). Simply put: versatility is severely underrated, especially in the face of a prepared/linear campaign where the GM has less flexibility to 'wing it' and adapt to a resourceful player's solutions (i.e. things like Shadow Walk can basically undo a plot in a minute, despite the best laid plans of the GM...)
I've come to terms that not everything is worth revisiting. There are knockout Pathfinder things out there, but sometimes, there's also stuff you should just forget about.
You simply don't need these Masterpieces to make a good bard. Better to forget and move on.
No one is stopping you from doing just that. Just don't expect anyone else to do that. I for one will continue to champion such a creative and innovative mechanic for Pathfinder. Better than anything D & D produced for the Bard. Just needs to be tweaked.
Given your love of Chelaxian order, I feel it is incumbent upon me to inform you that the word is galtan not Galtese.. :P
Seriously, DON'T do that. I'd prefer a nice Chelaxian queue to a Galtese fiasco any day.
Was attempting a word-play there ie, . Since it sort of fell flat, we'll accept the more orderly Galtan.
Separate note, though, the bardic performances WERE a huge selling point for Ultimate Magic for me, followed by the Magus class.
Anyone see the feat Disconcerting Knowledge from Horror Adventures?! Very nice. Intimidate builds for Bards just got a LOT easier: with Bardic Knowledge, some ranks in Knowledge skills and this feat, a Bard may Intimidate with Knowledge checks.
"Ah, I see that silver is detrimental to your health...I find it fascinating and happen to have some right here..."
What does this mean for this thread? Just that we can now save Bardic Performance for Masterpieces (provided the potential ruling makes them relevant) and Inspire Courage et al, rather than use Dirge of Doom to Intimidate.
We're approaching the 300 FAQ requests and Gen Con is over. I shall wait with bated breath for a final answer.
We're approaching the 300 FAQ requests and Gen Con is over. I shall wait with bated breath for a final answer.
Also approaching the 1st anniversary of the post.
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I was using Battle Song of the People's Revolt to supply a teamwork feat.
I know (and appreciate) John's presence and value his interpretation, so for now, until I hear otherwise via FAQ, this is how I'll run it, and expect players at my tables to abide by the rule.
I may not like it, but until the FAQ gets its needed enhancement, I don't see an option.
I wouldn't've let you use those two together anyways as they both require actively performing. I would let you use Triple Time then either inspire/battle song as Triple Time has it's cost up front and no longer requires active performing.
We're approaching the 300 FAQ requests and Gen Con is over. I shall wait with bated breath for a final answer.Also approaching the 1st anniversary of the post.
Wow. That's true. In 11 days, this thread/FAQ will be a year old. How depressing.
Well... people needed a 4th klar thread. It was very important.
To be fair, the Klar was in the same position as the Masterpieces are:
"What is this?"
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I don't think so. Masterpieces legitimately have a lot of ambiguity in how they work. The Klar FAQ was mostly just Paizo saying "no really they work the way the book says they work" combined with fixing an obvious typo.
I agree that the klar FAQs were all painfully obvious... but frankly so are the original intent of all of questions around masterpieces and bardic performances in general, EXCEPT for how/if 'fixed cost' performances/masterpieces (e.g. the Sandman archetype's 'Spell Catching' performance) interact with things like Shadowbard that provide ongoing performance but don't have any explained mechanism for paying fixed 'performance round' costs.
That is, a Shadowbard spell's effect would have the 'Spell Catching' performance if its caster did... but how could it pay 5 'bardic performance rounds' as an immediate action to 'catch' a 5th level spell since it doesn't have a 'bardic performance round pool' in the usual sense? Does it treat its duration as the pool and suddenly reduce the spell duration by 5 rounds? Or can it not be used for performances of that type at all?
Definitely not, they just put out a new post last week and I can't even remember the last time they've done two consecutive Fridays.That'd be waaayyy back about a month ago on July 22nd.
And it happened again today. :)