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Basically, any FAQ that actually requires them to do critical thinking and get all of the PDT together is a no go.
Unless it's a nerf. Be careful what you wish for.
You can add up to one spell per spell level that you have selected with this masterpiece to your list of bard spells known each day.It's pretty clear that you can only add one spell of each level you've purchased per day, so there's nothing to be gained by using it multiple times.I think this says differently...unless I am reading it wrong.
"You can add up to one spell per spell level that you have selected with this masterpiece to your list of bard spells known each day."
That seems to say if you used a 3rd level slot, you could add up to 3 spells to your spells known for a day.
First sentence says, "When you gain the masterpiece, it becomes associated with spells of a specific level." That level is equal to the level of spell that you spend to learn it (if you spend a spell known) or any one spell level you want if you spend a feat.
The final sentence says that you can only have one spell of each spell level that you have selected with the masterpiece to your bard spells known each day. So if you pick 1st, 3rd, and 5th level spells with this masterpiece, then you can do one 1st level spell, one 3rd level spell, and one 5th level spell.
In other words, Markov Spiked Chain is right. It is basically pointless to take the masterpiece multiple times for the same spell level.
That being said, this is just my interpretation and intent as the freelancer. Nothing I say is endorsed by Paizo and this shouldn't be taken as an FAQ.
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Did this FAQ move up in the queue again?Assuming that FAQs are done based only on queue position, the fact that we received a FAQ means that there are now less FAQs ahead of it than there was before.
My understanding is that we do NOT ALWAYS get an FAQ every Friday, which is why I asked...with Chess Pwn, who needs Captain Obvious? :P
Just wanted to jump into this.
I have FAQed. I am working on my bard now, and I have some great ideas for Masterpieces, but before I do it, I really want to know the official ruling. I hope this gets answered at some point.
Just to keep this whole conversation going. Here is another question.
Does the Masterpiece The Lullaby of Ember the Ancient, have a HD limit like Deep Slumber?
James Jacobs said in a post he doesn't think it does, but ask someone in Rules. Other people have said that "as-if" effects tend not to inherit the restrictions.
So is Lullaby just like casting Deep Slumber (just with performance points rather than spell points). Or is it more like the Slumber Witch hex? Thoughts?
Normally I see as if inheriting everything, like the clear spindle ioun stone in a wayfind granting protection as if protection from evil, so only against evil sources.
*Le sigh* Nothing yet. Really want to set up Vindictive Soliloquy/Tempestuous Aria while Inspiring Courage...don't see how that is OP! Still has the set up time and eats up performance.
I really would rather this thread not get lost and die. Sorry if my continual posting in it bothers anyone.
Ruling in favor would mean masterpieces become truly relevant as an option. None of these are game breaking.
I agree with Fourshadow. I don't want this to die. I would really love an answer. It seemed like there was tons of discussion regarding this topic early on, but since there was no answer people kinda left it behind. Maybe their Bards all died :P.
With so many rules, some are bound to get a bit confusing. Still having some actual rule clarification for this would give Bard a ton more options.
there's not much to discuss. Only thing I could think of would be to mention all the things either ruling touches. To help the Devs who are doing just that.
Keep fighting the good fight, Fourshadow. I imagine a lot of people would appreciate an answer, just not as many have faith that they'll get a response any time soon.
OK guys. I got a response from Mark. Nothing really new from his end but they are aware of the many issues brought up in this thread.
It's complicated so be patient. I have a PFS bard in waiting right now as I have a few choices to make and a potential FAQ would change my choices.
Thank to everyone for keeping the thread alive. When I made this FAQ I never expected 251 other votes to back up my plea for clarity.
Wow, thank you for the update. And thanks to Mark as well. I am glad they are aware of this thread and are at least thinking of it. Even if its just mulling it over in the back of their heads.
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Given there are 253 requests for this FAQ I'd be kinda amazed if they weren't aware of this thread.
I disagree that this is a particularly complicated area. Basically, it boils down to
1) Let some (still only a rare few) bardic masterpieces be useful. Come up with words to do that (lots of suggestions in this thread)
2) Admit that almost all of them are completely useless for almost all bards and a waste of design space (the only masterpiece that I'd even consider taking with the harsh interpretation is Symphony of the Elysian Heart)
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Really? You wouldn't even consider Triple Time where for the cost of one round of perfomance and 1 minute of performing, for the next hour your whole party can have a +10 enhancement to move speed?
If it would be immediately canceled if you played even one round of any other bardic performance during that hour - then no. However, I don't believe that was ever the intent.
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I love bards, they are my favorite class. But the idea that adding something new that costs feats or spell slots and gaining nothing from them irks me. The list of performances is large and fun. Shame to make all that hard work obsolete.
You mean, other than they could come up with a splat book at anytime detailing a bunch of magical music instruments that replicate masterpieces therefore not forcing you to take feats or spell slots for them? ;)
I love bards, they are my favorite class. But the idea that adding something new that costs feats or spell slots and gaining nothing from them irks me. The list of performances is large and fun. Shame to make all that hard work obsolete.You mean, other than they could come up with a splat book at anytime detailing a bunch of magical music instruments that replicate masterpieces therefore not forcing you to take feats or spell slots for them? ;)
Please tell me you don't seriously think that's going to happen. Because it's not. It's really not.
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As I have suggested earlier in this thread: Masterpiece Storing for instruments instead of Spell Storing.
However, I still want to see Masterpieces allowed simultaneously with other Bardic Performances--especially Inspire Courage--without having to use a spell.
Given the continuing interest in this subject, a creative solution may well be worth the effort.
I'd settle for a yes-or-no answer though.
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there's also that nagging little spell called exquisite accompaniment which lets you maintain a completely separate song at no cost... all you pay is to activate or switch... I'm not sure if I'm missing something but geez there should be magical instruments in a book somewhere by now that at least do that (i.e. bard controls floating flute by will).
Still can't believe there is no answer on this yet :)
It is not that difficult... I mean OMG That bard song that required a feat or a spell, takes action economy to use, and costs performance... so Over Powered...
I don't think there could be a balance issue, it may be a "theme" issue... but if RAW my monk with snake style and hamatula strike can impale and grapple 4 people in a round with Unarmed Strikes... and still make unarmed attacks (if not AoOs) then a bard playing two counterpoint songs is hardly thematically broken...
:)
+S
The answer is easy if they say no. You can't do both cause they are both performances. The answer is much harder if you want to allow some stacking. Because you need to decide how they stack.
Just wanted to jump in to keep this thread alive.
In my next game session this is going to matter. I will probably just talk to my DM and hopefully she agrees it's ok. I check this thread every day. Fingers crossed they get to it eventually.
well there's a chance that it'll be answered tomorrow, as tomorrow is a FAQ day. I don't know how likely it is though, but it technically is possible still to my knowledge.
Well can't hurt to keep the thread active right up to FAQ day then.
Not sure how they pick which FAQ request to go through. Though, from reading through this thread, it seems like this one has some repercussions that they might be avoiding.
My little Halfling Bard/Gunslinger wants to know! :-)
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The bardic tradition continues, ever since AD&D 1st edition weird bard multi-classing prerequisites:
(clears throat to chase away the cobwebs)
..AHEM!!!
To keep the rules uncertain,
is to strive against the plain!
Why don't you join us in song?
it shall loosen your tongue.
No longer bound you will be,
instead you'll feel so free!
Bards and their music refrain,
mysteries shall remaaaaaain!!!!!!
They've already started this one. It's just a big decision.
Here's what I think is going on.
It was probably intended no at creation.
They didn't have a clear yes or no on this - this was good for the yes view.
So they are going to go and find as much broken stuff that they can if you allowed them to work together.
Then they'll decide if the answer is yes or no.
IF the answer is no, and the yes view is lucky, they might then go and try to figure out a reduced overlapping that they feel good with. Like No doing two at once, but if you have the effects lasting from one you can start the other without ending the previous effect early.
Then add in that while doing this they are out of the office a lot, don't actually meet up about this topic very much in a week, and part of that time is devoted to figuring out something that can get a FAQ out that Friday. So if you want this answered you're probably hoping that this is the top of the "hard list" and that we're getting lots of super easy FAQs in a row, thus freeing up the most time possible to work on this task.
It’s quiet tonight at the trading post
The exhausted guard is ready to tuck in
Still up there’s one bard with a song to write
And she doesn’t know where to begin
She wants to play them a memory
And she’s not yet sure how it goes
But it’s sad and it’s sweet and she’ll know it complete
With grace from the Eternal Rose
La la la, di da da
La la, di da da da dum
Sing us a song, sing of Kaz’s life
Sing us of Kaz tonight
Well, we’re all mourning the sweet memory
Of a soul who made everything right
Lana at the Post is a friend of mine
She took a perilous ride
“Give us a hand! It’s an invasion of bandits
And they’ll slaughter everyone inside!”
“We’ll face your bandits,” Kaz firmly replied
But though the thugs were taking a toll
Kaz mourned for their sake the lives that he’d take
He knew every last one had a soul
Oh, la la la, di da da
La la, di da da da dum
Now Kaz was a humble farm boy
Who never had time for a wife
With an axe in his hand, at Erastil’s command
He gave his all for all of his life
And now we’re all trying to find the new normal
As we all walk about with hearts heavy as stone
We’re sharing a bitter brew we call loneliness
Oh, Kaz, why’d you leave us alone?
Sing us a song, sing of Kaz’s life
Sing us of Kaz tonight
Well, we’re all mourning the sweet memory
Of a soul who made everything right
Kaz welcomed each stranger with open arms
He always had time for a smile
Kaz gave us our chance, smashing his lance
He chose to go out in style
And the battle it ended with only one who fell
We should all be feeling good cheer
But there’s a hole in our hearts, we’re falling apart
Now that Kaz is no longer here
Oh, la la la, di da da
La la, di da da da dum
Sing us a song, sing of Kaz’s life
Sing us of Kaz tonight
Well, we’re all mourning the sweet memory
Of a soul who made everything right
Source material: Billy Joel's Piano Man
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It's not only quiet at the trading post, it's quiet here. I suspect we won't get much movement on this until after Paizo Con.
So... I think I'll try to keep more of my songs either short or more on topic. I did write a song in honor of the last run of Errata, though:
Just sharing it because it turned out fun!
While we're waiting, I also thought we could talk about what we love about being a bard (or a skald.) What rocks your world about these classes, guys?
Hmm
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Marked this as a FAQ - I have a Bard and really want to know... If you can't have the effect of the Masterpiece and also sing, then I will probably only pick up the Freedom of Movement masterpiece and call it a day.
Otherwise, I would probably take some others.
Rules arguments aside, I would really prefer the ruling which was less draconian in nature. It's hard for me to believe that Triple Time is worth not singing...
I love Triple Time. However, with Jasmine, in this morass of rules uncertainty, I decided to invest in the Mass Feather Step spell, which I know can be done alongside a bardic performance rather than the bardic masterpiece Symphony of the Elysian Heart. If I'm going to have to expend a spell known for freedom of movement, I might as well do it with the spell and be able to inspire courage at the same time.
Hmm
I've said it numerous times, but my fave masterpiece is from Magic Marketplace: Vindictive Soliloquy--the Bard summons Thunder! However, it takes 5 rounds to kick in (which is why I think we need magic instruments with Masterpiece Storing akin to Spell Storing).
I love being able to do things other than just buff/debuff with Bardic Performance (which is why my fave archetype is Sound Striker).
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I love Triple Time. However, with Jasmine, in this morass of rules uncertainty, I decided to invest in the Mass Feather Step spell, which I know can be done alongside a bardic performance rather than the bardic masterpiece Symphony of the Elysian Heart. If I'm going to have to expend a spell known for freedom of movement, I might as well do it with the spell and be able to inspire courage at the same time.Hmm
As a practical matter I've never had a PFS GM disallow triple time in its "obvious" way (ie, works even after I start another performance). And pretty much all of my non core bards get it at some point.
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I was playing my Dirge Bard with both Inspire Courage and a Masterpiece this weekend at PaizoCon. While he's a designer, not a developer, John Compton - a man very aware of rules - came up to the table and informed us that they cannot stack.
This may be a sign of things to come, but until then, it was made clear in my mind - they cannot stack.
Hmm...interesting. John definitely has the inside track on upcoming FAQs. It could just be Johns interpretation of the rules (plenty of people agree with him) and the RAW is more supportive of that angle. However, it could be that Mark and the FAQ team have given him the heads up that an official FAQ is coming up.
Just out of curiosity what Masterpiece were you using?
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I was using Battle Song of the People's Revolt to supply a teamwork feat.
I know (and appreciate) John's presence and value his interpretation, so for now, until I hear otherwise via FAQ, this is how I'll run it, and expect players at my tables to abide by the rule.
I may not like it, but until the FAQ gets its needed enhancement, I don't see an option.
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The overweight female bard hasn't sung the last masterpiece yet, I'm not giving in.
Way to hold the line, Cavall! I'm not giving in either. If this isn't fixed, Masterpieces become next to useless. Such a pity to relegate a great game mechanic to the dung heap all because it is thought to be "too much" or OP to allow Masterpieces and Performance to be simultaneous. If the bard wants to burn right through his/her Performance rounds, why should the rules stop him?! It is indeed a finite resource and should therefore be allowed, IMO (for the umpteen millionth time, right? :) ).
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This will actually have relatively little impact on me. I think that there are only 2 Masterpieces that I've actually bought on my characters (most are still utter crap even with the lenient ruling)
Triple time - Clearly they just retrain this for an additional spell. Pity but I can live with it
Symphony of the Elysian Heart - Even with the lenient ruling using this shut down bardic performances so the ruling doesn't change things. And it is still worth a spell slot for the incredible power of this Masterpiece under the right circumstances