I dont think a single option said you could do 2 masterpieces at once.
If it's not a performance then there's no limit on how many you can have going at once.
And like I said, blazing rondo isn't the problematic one if you can swift action launch at will.
**Looks at masterpieces list**
Nevermind swift action launch is ok.
All the good options are slower than 1 standard.
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Allowing Bards to 'nova' through all of their performance rounds tends to promote a '15 minute adventuring day'... which I'm against for numerous reasons.
It also runs in to potential problems with things like the Tuned Bowstring, Tea of Transference, or Exquisite Accompaniment that can give you additional (potentially infinite) rounds of performance.
The argument that 'only these specific performances/masterpieces are really powerful if we change how they work' also has a future proofing problem. It would essentially mean that all future masterpieces would need to be carefully hobbled to prevent them stacking up together into something unmanageable.
Rather than changing the fundamental nature of masterpieces I'd like to see new options introduced to deal with the, "Inspire Courage is so good that nothing else makes sense most of the time" 'problem'. Have a singing sword that performs battle song of the people's revolt... or a bardic instrument (with the Shadowbard spell as a pre-req) that allows a second active performance... or any one masterpiece per day... or a list of masterpieces up to a certain number of charges... or more things like swapping versatile performance for masterpieces (e.g. can swap out some performances for masterpieces)... et cetera.
There are plenty of ways to expand the usefulness of masterpieces w/o rewriting how they work.
...or we could just do Option 3 because folks have *spent* already to get a Masterpiece...?
Cost to maintain: three bardic performance rounds per actual round, which, assuming cha 22, would mean 10 rounds per day.
10 rounds per day is nothing...
Um... No? Bards get 2 additional rounds of performance every level after level 1. A 13th level bard with 22 CHA would have 34 rounds of performance a day. Skalds get the same.
Um... No? Bards get 2 additional rounds of performance every level after level 1. A 13th level bard with 22 CHA would have 34 rounds of performance a day. Skalds get the same.Cost to maintain: three bardic performance rounds per actual round, which, assuming cha 22, would mean 10 rounds per day.
10 rounds per day is nothing...
Skalds do actually get less than bards since they start with 3+cha instead of 4+cha.
But their point was doing the combo to burn 3 rounds at a time. And as you just showed them having 34 rounds at that level and using 3 per round is 11, which is basically 10 and excusable as rounding or just missing little. Like their point is still solid and the same if the number is really 10 or 11.
Skalds do actually get less than bards since they start with 3+cha instead of 4+cha.
But their point was doing the combo to burn 3 rounds at a time. And as you just showed them having 34 rounds at that level and using 3 per round is 11, which is basically 10 and excusable as rounding or just missing little. Like their point is still solid and the same if the number is really 10 or 11.
Ah, I must have misread his post then. My mistake.
I wonder what the best feat would be for a bard with battle song of the people? Outflank? Precise strike?
I wonder what the best feat would be for a bard with battle song of the people? Outflank? Precise strike?
Outflank for to-hit bonuses and crit-fishing characters.
Precise Strike for a more raw damage boost.
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So, as it is... There aren't many people who find it overpowered if masterpieces do not count as bardic performance / raging song, but instead count as seperate powers using the same system.
Game balance: The price for the powers is paid:
- through sacrifice of spell or feat
- in performance rounds (additional with other masterpieces and with bardic performance / raging song).
Game balance lies in that a bard/skald who focuses on any combo would quickly run through their daily rounds.
Game logic: Skilled performers can combine performances, both of the same type (different versions of songs or dances, with different emotional charge), and of different types (combining instruments and dance).
Metagame comparison: most masterpieces produce effects that compare to spells, and others compare to powers that other classes have. So bards/skalds who multiclass or who choose their spells well, would be able to do this anyway, but with less flair.
Metagame reasoning: The masterpieces are a really cool concept that sees little gameplay, because the basic performances of the bards and skalds are almost always the better choice. Making this decision would make the masterpieces a lot more popular.
So, we're all for masterpieces as separate powers (position #3)? Cuz then we can close this lengthy meeting, and have the Paizo team effectuate our consensus. If not, maybe we can put it to a vote...?
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That's not very constructive.
I'm stating that not many people are against, and that, if a decision must be made (and it's about time that a decision be made), #3 would probably be the consensus.
I also state that if we don't believe this to be true, we could perhaps vote on it. We don't have to, though, since Pathfinder isn't really based on democracy. We all look to our glorious leaders at Paizo to resolve this. But they bounce the question back to us. Even though achieving consensus on the internet is utopic, we've gotten very far. Most people who post here have no problems with option #3.
Please, Paizo, acknowledge and effectuate.
We're still "merely" at 433 FAQ requests. So I'd like to bring this topic back to the forefront of the forum, by means of this bump.
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And as of the printing of PC: Disciple's Doctrine, we have two new Masterpieces.
One is really cool but suffers from the same issue as Vindictive Soliloquy--a performance time of 5 rounds. This might be acceptable IF Inspire Courage could be maintained simultaneously. The name of it is Kaminari Drums and it casts a Flamestrike that is half electricity and half completely untyped and cannot be resisted.
The other one is even better (in part due to a 1 round performance time): Spirit of the Horse casts Greater Magic Fang on animal companions and mounts!
Two and a half years and still it appears no closer to a resolution.
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That's pretty much what I said.They think they know how they should work, same as the rest of us.All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.
So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.
The task of putting a list together and clarifying the actual rule is not being helped by printing more content based on a flawed foundation.
I'm fine with them continuing to put out Masterpieces and letting GMs adjudicate as needed, rather than stop them altogether until they eventually, hopefully, put out a statement.
Edit: the fact that they continue to put them out is a point in favor towards that eventual solution, as it shows they are still very interested in Masterpieces.
All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.
So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.
At some point, I would imagine that ONE person came up with the idea of Masterpieces as a game mechanic. That ONE person knows exactly how masterpieces are supposed to work. The problem, apparently is that ONE person did a poor job explaining to all the authors that wrote the subsequent masterpieces as to how they worked.
As soon as the first author turnover for a new masterpiece came in which did not follow the original way Masterpieces were supposed to work, the problem should have been addressed right then and there. It wasn't and here we are.|
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All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.
So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.
At some point, I would imagine that ONE person came up with the idea of Masterpieces as a game mechanic. That ONE person knows exactly how masterpieces are supposed to work. The problem, apparently is that ONE person did a poor job explaining to all the authors that wrote the subsequent masterpieces as to how they worked.
As soon as the first author turnover for a new masterpiece came in which did not follow the original way Masterpieces were supposed to work, the problem should have been addressed right then and there. It wasn't and here we are.
Well that's the thing, they work just fine, how they work isn't even the point of this thread. It's if they can be up and running alongside other types of Bardic Performances.
And absolutely none of the Masteprieces have texts within them stating yes/no they can run alongside other Performances. So we've never had a case of an author "not following how Masterpieces work" because they do work, and no author to my knowledge has attempted to state in a product how they interact with other Bardic Performances.
Is this basically Pathfinder 2.0? Because that's what it looks like.
Yep that seems to be the end game.
Well, @!$*. Good luck finding a group to play all the awesome APs that came out in the past few years.
Drat. I did not want a 2nd edition.
So, as it is... There aren't many people who find it overpowered if masterpieces do not count as bardic performance / raging song, but instead count as seperate powers using the same system.
Game balance: The price for the powers is paid:
- through sacrifice of spell or feat
- in performance rounds (additional with other masterpieces and with bardic performance / raging song).
Game balance lies in that a bard/skald who focuses on any combo would quickly run through their daily rounds.Game logic: Skilled performers can combine performances, both of the same type (different versions of songs or dances, with different emotional charge), and of different types (combining instruments and dance).
Metagame comparison: most masterpieces produce effects that compare to spells, and others compare to powers that other classes have. So bards/skalds who multiclass or who choose their spells well, would be able to do this anyway, but with less flair.
Metagame reasoning: The masterpieces are a really cool concept that sees little gameplay, because the basic performances of the bards and skalds are almost always the better choice. Making this decision would make the masterpieces a lot more popular.
So, we're all for masterpieces as separate powers (position #3)? Cuz then we can close this lengthy meeting, and have the Paizo team effectuate our consensus. If not, maybe we can put it to a vote...?
This is also my understanding and logic on masterpieces.
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Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.
If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)
Well wemightwill not get an answer now
Fixed that for you. :)
They completely abandoned performance combat, I hope they don't just sweep masterpieces under the rug and think we forget about them...
Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.
If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)
This doesn't work due to the oft overlooked rule of lingering performance.
"If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease."
So if a Masterpiece counts as a new performance then when you start it whatever was lingering ends.
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Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.
If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)This doesn't work due to the oft overlooked rule of lingering performance.
"If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease."
So if a Masterpiece counts as a new performance then when you start it whatever was lingering ends.
Hmm only community minded skald then...
So, what do we think we'll get first - a FAQ or Pathfinder Ⅱ?
Pathfinder 2.0 I honestly don't expect to see much time devoted to FAQs until then considering how sporadic they already were.
we did end up nerfing pageant of the peacock
It certainly reads as stupidly powerful. How'd you rate the Battle Song of the People's Revolt? It's often mentioned, but really I can't see what the big deal is.
Although if you're busy picking up Masterpieces, you probably don't have many Teamwork feats to share...
It's too bad we'll never get an official answer to this, but what Ravskinn describes sounds reasonable to me.
Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.
Maybe the PF2 Playtest will provide something we can backfit into PF1?
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Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.
Its at 400++ FAQ requests and NO REPLY? *Shock
I know Paizo staff can be very busy, but this does warrant a look at by the Paizo design team.
At the very least, it should be clear that there is a significant number of people that feel strongly enough about this for it to be addressed as a FAQ candidate.
Its a disservice to customers to ignore a topic with such a high number of FAQ request.
Maybe the PF2 Playtest will provide something we can backfit into PF1?
I am hoping for the same and eagerly looking forward to the bard class preview.
Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.Its at 400++ FAQ requests and NO REPLY? *Shock
I know Paizo staff can be very busy, but this does warrant a look at by the Paizo design team.
At the very least, it should be clear that there is a significant number of people that feel strongly enough about this for it to be addressed as a FAQ candidate.
Its a disservice to customers to ignore a topic with such a high number of FAQ request.
No need for them to anymore going forward, I doubt we see many if any FAQs answered over the summer and most of the ones we get if not all will be aimed at the Planar Handbook I'm sure.
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Exactly. Time spent on Pathfinder FAQs is time sunk, from Paizo's current perspective.
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Regardless of what happens with PF2, many will continue to play PF as it exists now and those people deserve answers to questions raised long ago like this issue with Masterpieces.
That there is ambiguity on Masterpieces with RAW is clear. We all know GM's who hate on certain classes or features, whether they call it a power issue or not, and Bard-hate has been a thing for years due to dislike of certain tropes or just ignorance of what they're good for. GM's can certainly run a game how they wish, but many may look to forums like this for interpretation of ambiguous things in an attempt to hold to accepted rules.
To the haters who believe that Masterpieces should be treated completely as a type of Bardic Performance, I give you this dilemma to think on:
A bard takes the Triple Time masterpiece and eventually also takes the Discordant Voice feat. If they spend 1 BP to increase land movement for their entire party are you going to accept that everyone in the party within 30 ft of the bard gets +d6 sonic damage for every attack in the next hour without a single additional round of BP spent?
A long-running masterpiece counting as bardic performance would allow that, since masterpieces generally are Supernatural effects. I think many would agree that this isn't something that we'd normally allow, and is far more impacting than letting a low level bard have a masterpiece and a bardic performance be up at the same time.