Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I dont think a single option said you could do 2 masterpieces at once.


Cavall wrote:
I dont think a single option said you could do 2 masterpieces at once.

If it's not a performance then there's no limit on how many you can have going at once.

And like I said, blazing rondo isn't the problematic one if you can swift action launch at will.

**Looks at masterpieces list**

Nevermind swift action launch is ok.

All the good options are slower than 1 standard.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Allowing Bards to 'nova' through all of their performance rounds tends to promote a '15 minute adventuring day'... which I'm against for numerous reasons.

It also runs in to potential problems with things like the Tuned Bowstring, Tea of Transference, or Exquisite Accompaniment that can give you additional (potentially infinite) rounds of performance.

The argument that 'only these specific performances/masterpieces are really powerful if we change how they work' also has a future proofing problem. It would essentially mean that all future masterpieces would need to be carefully hobbled to prevent them stacking up together into something unmanageable.

Rather than changing the fundamental nature of masterpieces I'd like to see new options introduced to deal with the, "Inspire Courage is so good that nothing else makes sense most of the time" 'problem'. Have a singing sword that performs battle song of the people's revolt... or a bardic instrument (with the Shadowbard spell as a pre-req) that allows a second active performance... or any one masterpiece per day... or a list of masterpieces up to a certain number of charges... or more things like swapping versatile performance for masterpieces (e.g. can swap out some performances for masterpieces)... et cetera.

There are plenty of ways to expand the usefulness of masterpieces w/o rewriting how they work.

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

...or we could just do Option 3 because folks have *spent* already to get a Masterpiece...?


Viondar wrote:

Cost to maintain: three bardic performance rounds per actual round, which, assuming cha 22, would mean 10 rounds per day.

10 rounds per day is nothing...

Um... No? Bards get 2 additional rounds of performance every level after level 1. A 13th level bard with 22 CHA would have 34 rounds of performance a day. Skalds get the same.


DeathlessOne wrote:
Viondar wrote:

Cost to maintain: three bardic performance rounds per actual round, which, assuming cha 22, would mean 10 rounds per day.

10 rounds per day is nothing...

Um... No? Bards get 2 additional rounds of performance every level after level 1. A 13th level bard with 22 CHA would have 34 rounds of performance a day. Skalds get the same.

Skalds do actually get less than bards since they start with 3+cha instead of 4+cha.

But their point was doing the combo to burn 3 rounds at a time. And as you just showed them having 34 rounds at that level and using 3 per round is 11, which is basically 10 and excusable as rounding or just missing little. Like their point is still solid and the same if the number is really 10 or 11.


Chess Pwn wrote:

Skalds do actually get less than bards since they start with 3+cha instead of 4+cha.

But their point was doing the combo to burn 3 rounds at a time. And as you just showed them having 34 rounds at that level and using 3 per round is 11, which is basically 10 and excusable as rounding or just missing little. Like their point is still solid and the same if the number is really 10 or 11.

Ah, I must have misread his post then. My mistake.


2 people marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Latest Summary Post:

- Added Position #4 (this is changing the rules for masterpieces to not be affected by a bard's scaling action economy, so is probably out of scope of this FAQ, but it is included for completeness)

- Started a masterpiece list that the FAQ committee should definitely include in their analysis.

I think we are still looking for strong masterpieces. We need to include other interactions (items, feats, other abilities) as well.

**********************************************

Position #1 - Masterpieces are Bardic Performance are Masterpieces

Position #1 FAQ:

Masterpieces are bardic performances and follow bardic performance rules. If a bard starts a new masterpiece or other bardic performance, any existing masterpiece effect immediately ends. A bard does not need to spend a free action to maintain masterpieces, nor does a masterpiece effect immediately end if the bard falls unconscious, etc. The masterpiece effects linger until their duration expires, or until a new masterpiece or other bardic performance is started.

Example: If a bard has activated Triple Time on an ally, whenever they start to activate another bardic performance (or masterpiece), Triple Time wears off immediately, no matter where the ally is.

Position #2 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. Any masterpiece that is completed and has a duration independent of the bard no longer counts against the maintained performance limit.

Position #2 FAQ:

Masterpieces can be separated into two categories: maintained and independent. A masterpiece is maintained if it requires the bard to spend actions in subsequent rounds or else the masterpiece will end. A masterpiece is independent of the bard if no action must be taken after the masterpiece is activated for the effect to continue for its entire duration.

A maintained masterpiece immediately ends if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. An independent masterpiece does not end if a bard starts a new masterpiece or bardic performance. It lasts until its duration expires.

Example: If a bard has completed the activation of the Triple Time masterpiece on an ally, the ally retains the bonus even if the bard starts another Bardic Performance or Masterpiece.

Example: If a bard has the masterpiece The Depths of the Mountain activated, since it is a maintained Masterpiece, the bard must end that masterpiece if Inspire Courage is started.

Position #3 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #3 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.

Position #4 - Masterpieces are unusual applications of the bardic performance ability. They are not actual Bardic Performances.

Position #4 FAQ:

Masterpieces and Bardic Performances are independent of each other. They do not interact nor do they prevent or cancel each other. It is not possible for a bard of sufficient level to activate masterpieces faster if they have a base activation of 1 standard action. Both can be active at the same time, although they each require separate activation actions.

Example: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. The battle is almost finished, so the bard starts the masterpiece Triple Time while Inspire Courage is still up and running. Rounds of Bardic Performance are spent simultaneously on both abilities.

Example 2: A bard has Inspire Courage going in battle. He wants to start Blazing Rondo, he has to take a standard action, but otherwise both inspire courage and Blazing Rondo take effect simultaneously.

***********************************************

Strong Masterpieces that should be included in the FAQ committee analysis.

Blazing Rondo: Haste Masterpiece
- Requires Level 7
- Costs level 3 spell known (e.g. replaces Haste spell known)
- Inferior to Haste spell effects (shorter duration, chained to bard, negative effect potential) until level 9
- Considered a strong combat boost at early levels as a move/standard action, since Haste costs a VALUABLE spell slot
- Power fades some as more level 3+ spell slots come online
- Power increases at level 10 giving +1 to hit and reflex about Haste
- Greatly reduces any other usage of Bardic Performance except in combat
- Level 13 presents swift/move/standard action haste that costs a Vanilla Bard (or the party) ~50k to duplicate

Battle Song of the People: Gives a feat to the party
- Requires: level 4 required
- Requires: or or half-orc race
- Costs level 2 spell known (or feat)
- standard action (levels 4-6), move or standard (level 7-12), etc.
- Feat Choice: Amplify Rage
--> would stack GREAT for a Skalds Rage Song
--> +4 STR and CON if adjacent/flanking to/with another raging ally
--> would not typically as powerful as adding haste to the party

Dark Archive

A potential comment on Battle Song of the People would be that it seems objectively better then how Cavalier's hand out team work feats. You can do it for longer and neatly break it up into the length of time required. In many cases that might be less potent then inspire but teamwork feats can get very potent.


I wonder what the best feat would be for a bard with battle song of the people? Outflank? Precise strike?


FangDragon wrote:
I wonder what the best feat would be for a bard with battle song of the people? Outflank? Precise strike?

Outflank for to-hit bonuses and crit-fishing characters.

Precise Strike for a more raw damage boost.

Silver Crusade

So, as it is... There aren't many people who find it overpowered if masterpieces do not count as bardic performance / raging song, but instead count as seperate powers using the same system.

Game balance: The price for the powers is paid:
- through sacrifice of spell or feat
- in performance rounds (additional with other masterpieces and with bardic performance / raging song).
Game balance lies in that a bard/skald who focuses on any combo would quickly run through their daily rounds.

Game logic: Skilled performers can combine performances, both of the same type (different versions of songs or dances, with different emotional charge), and of different types (combining instruments and dance).

Metagame comparison: most masterpieces produce effects that compare to spells, and others compare to powers that other classes have. So bards/skalds who multiclass or who choose their spells well, would be able to do this anyway, but with less flair.

Metagame reasoning: The masterpieces are a really cool concept that sees little gameplay, because the basic performances of the bards and skalds are almost always the better choice. Making this decision would make the masterpieces a lot more popular.

So, we're all for masterpieces as separate powers (position #3)? Cuz then we can close this lengthy meeting, and have the Paizo team effectuate our consensus. If not, maybe we can put it to a vote...?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Maps, Modules, Pawns, Roleplaying Game, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Viondar wrote:
So, we're all for masterpieces as separate powers (position #3)?

Nope.

Silver Crusade

That's not very constructive.

I'm stating that not many people are against, and that, if a decision must be made (and it's about time that a decision be made), #3 would probably be the consensus.

I also state that if we don't believe this to be true, we could perhaps vote on it. We don't have to, though, since Pathfinder isn't really based on democracy. We all look to our glorious leaders at Paizo to resolve this. But they bounce the question back to us. Even though achieving consensus on the internet is utopic, we've gotten very far. Most people who post here have no problems with option #3.

Please, Paizo, acknowledge and effectuate.


Quite honestly I think that Bardic Masterpieces should interact similar to Metamagic feats in how they operate. So effectively you can have one Bardic Masterpiece augment one Bardic Performance.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

I have 3 complications that I feel this FAQ should look at before making a decision.

1) Does a prestige class (for example Pathfinder Chronicler) that advances bardic performances also advance masterpieces? If masterpieces are not the same as bardic performances, then this is not necessarily the case.

2) Harmonic Spell: if masterpieces are bardic performances, then a bard with Harmonic Spell can get around the long activation time of many perfomances by casting a lvl 1 or higher spell. The feat would then allow you to switch to the performance as a swift action. I've highlighted this issue earlier in this thread, I believe.

For example, at lvl 11 a bard could Inspire Courage as a move action, cast Haste as a standard, then thanks to Harmonic Spell, as a swift action switch to Pallavi of Nirvana’s Blossoming. The issue with this is that many of the more powerful masterpieces are balanced by having a long activation time, this method bypasses this entirely. I believe this will only be an issue for Position 1.

3) Pathfinder Chronicler has the ability called Epic Tales. Can a Pathfinder Chronicler create an Epic Tale of masterpieces that she knows? This would be another way to bypass the long activation time of many masterpieces. Moreover, anyone literate can read out loud the Epic Tale to produce the effect; no UMD check is needed. Hence a familiar, or cohort, or literate NPC can use it, in addition to PCs. This could allow the stacking of many masterpieces simultaneously.

However, Pathfinder Chronicler is not considered a strong class by any means, so a boost in power many not be unwelcome. The Pathfinder would have to spend feats to get high level masterpieces, since she doesn't have spell advancement. Also, the Epic Tales ability is gained at character lvl 9, and only affects people other than the reader at lvl 13. This tactic would require devoting many levels to a suboptimal class before reaching the pay-off, when one would most likely be better off just advancing bard instead.

Some food for thought!


We're still "merely" at 433 FAQ requests. So I'd like to bring this topic back to the forefront of the forum, by means of this bump.


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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

And as of the printing of PC: Disciple's Doctrine, we have two new Masterpieces.
One is really cool but suffers from the same issue as Vindictive Soliloquy--a performance time of 5 rounds. This might be acceptable IF Inspire Courage could be maintained simultaneously. The name of it is Kaminari Drums and it casts a Flamestrike that is half electricity and half completely untyped and cannot be resisted.
The other one is even better (in part due to a 1 round performance time): Spirit of the Horse casts Greater Magic Fang on animal companions and mounts!


Two and a half years and still it appears no closer to a resolution.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Fourshadow wrote:

And as of the printing of PC: Disciple's Doctrine, we have two new Masterpieces.

One is really cool but suffers from the same issue as Vindictive Soliloquy--a performance time of 5 rounds. This might be acceptable IF Inspire Courage could be maintained simultaneously. The name of it is Kaminari Drums and it casts a Flamestrike that is half electricity and half completely untyped and cannot be resisted.
The other one is even better (in part due to a 1 round performance time): Spirit of the Horse casts Greater Magic Fang on animal companions and mounts!

What makes this frustrating to me is that, despite apparently not actually knowing for sure how Masterpieces work... they're still publishing new ones.

Come on, Paizo. Make the rules before you publish stuff that uses those rules.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.

So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.


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Rysky wrote:

All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.

So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.

Those authors don't know how masterpieces work. They think they know how they should work, same as the rest of us.

The task of putting a list together and clarifying the actual rule is not being helped by printing more content based on a flawed foundation.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
shaventalz wrote:
Rysky wrote:

All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.

So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.

They think they know how they should work, same as the rest of us.
That's pretty much what I said.
shaventalz wrote:
The task of putting a list together and clarifying the actual rule is not being helped by printing more content based on a flawed foundation.

I'm fine with them continuing to put out Masterpieces and letting GMs adjudicate as needed, rather than stop them altogether until they eventually, hopefully, put out a statement.

Edit: the fact that they continue to put them out is a point in favor towards that eventual solution, as it shows they are still very interested in Masterpieces.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 32

Rysky wrote:

All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.

So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.

At some point, I would imagine that ONE person came up with the idea of Masterpieces as a game mechanic. That ONE person knows exactly how masterpieces are supposed to work. The problem, apparently is that ONE person did a poor job explaining to all the authors that wrote the subsequent masterpieces as to how they worked.

As soon as the first author turnover for a new masterpiece came in which did not follow the original way Masterpieces were supposed to work, the problem should have been addressed right then and there. It wasn't and here we are.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Campaign Setting, Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Roleplaying Guild, Tales Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Grumpus wrote:
Rysky wrote:

All the authors who write the masterpieces know how they work. Which is kinda the issue, there's a LOT of authors making a LOT of Masterpieces, and we don't know which ones believes which ones work which way.

So consolidating every single one for clarification is... a bit of a task.

At some point, I would imagine that ONE person came up with the idea of Masterpieces as a game mechanic. That ONE person knows exactly how masterpieces are supposed to work. The problem, apparently is that ONE person did a poor job explaining to all the authors that wrote the subsequent masterpieces as to how they worked.

As soon as the first author turnover for a new masterpiece came in which did not follow the original way Masterpieces were supposed to work, the problem should have been addressed right then and there. It wasn't and here we are.

Well that's the thing, they work just fine, how they work isn't even the point of this thread. It's if they can be up and running alongside other types of Bardic Performances.

And absolutely none of the Masteprieces have texts within them stating yes/no they can run alongside other Performances. So we've never had a case of an author "not following how Masterpieces work" because they do work, and no author to my knowledge has attempted to state in a product how they interact with other Bardic Performances.


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Really it's even simpler than that.

Do they work together?

They don't. They just do not. And we all know they don't.

But if Paizo says they don't then every masterpiece (barring maybe 3) becomes instantly turfed in favour of bardic performance.

Which they don't want to admit or have happen. Because it means it's all been filled for years.

This isn't about masterpiece performances working with them all the time or not. It's about how to rework it so they DO.

Don't confuse this as an FAQ. It's stopped being that about 18 months ago. Now? It's a system fix.

Let's not pretend they are ignorant of the system. They aren't. They are just continuing making masterpieces and waiting for someone higher up to find a way to shoehorn a system in to please the masses and not throw it all out.


I should add I want them to work together. But it's been pointed out that some don't play well with each other and some play a little too nicely.

But they have come in to say they are working on it. You don't "work on" a yes or no answer. You work on a rewrite.

I just think the claim that authors don't know what they are doing when it comes to making them, or that some mystical "ONE" person explained this one time and no one asked how they interact. Give them some credit.


Well we might not get an answer now


Is this basically Pathfinder 2.0? Because that's what it looks like.


Yep that seems to be the end game.


Well, @!$*. Good luck finding a group to play all the awesome APs that came out in the past few years.


Drat. I did not want a 2nd edition.


Viondar wrote:

So, as it is... There aren't many people who find it overpowered if masterpieces do not count as bardic performance / raging song, but instead count as seperate powers using the same system.

Game balance: The price for the powers is paid:
- through sacrifice of spell or feat
- in performance rounds (additional with other masterpieces and with bardic performance / raging song).
Game balance lies in that a bard/skald who focuses on any combo would quickly run through their daily rounds.

Game logic: Skilled performers can combine performances, both of the same type (different versions of songs or dances, with different emotional charge), and of different types (combining instruments and dance).

Metagame comparison: most masterpieces produce effects that compare to spells, and others compare to powers that other classes have. So bards/skalds who multiclass or who choose their spells well, would be able to do this anyway, but with less flair.

Metagame reasoning: The masterpieces are a really cool concept that sees little gameplay, because the basic performances of the bards and skalds are almost always the better choice. Making this decision would make the masterpieces a lot more popular.

So, we're all for masterpieces as separate powers (position #3)? Cuz then we can close this lengthy meeting, and have the Paizo team effectuate our consensus. If not, maybe we can put it to a vote...?

This is also my understanding and logic on masterpieces.

Grand Lodge

Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.
If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)


Talonhawke wrote:
Well we might will not get an answer now

Fixed that for you. :)


They completely abandoned performance combat, I hope they don't just sweep masterpieces under the rug and think we forget about them...


*Khan* wrote:

Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.

If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)

This doesn't work due to the oft overlooked rule of lingering performance.

"If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease."

So if a Masterpiece counts as a new performance then when you start it whatever was lingering ends.

Grand Lodge

Chess Pwn wrote:
*Khan* wrote:

Perhaps this already has been adressed earlier in this thread.

If you have lingering performance and harmonic spell, then you can have both your bardic or skald performance up and running together with a Master Piece. You only need to cast level 1+ spell and switch performance every 2-3 rounds.
And you only spent 1 round of performance per round (excluding the free rounds when you cast a spell.)

This doesn't work due to the oft overlooked rule of lingering performance.

"If you begin a new bardic performance during this time, the effects of the previous performance immediately cease."

So if a Masterpiece counts as a new performance then when you start it whatever was lingering ends.

Hmm only community minded skald then...


So, what do we think we'll get first - a FAQ or Pathfinder Ⅱ?


Pathfinder 2.0 I honestly don't expect to see much time devoted to FAQs until then considering how sporadic they already were.


I am currently playing a bard in a home campaign of Emerald Spire. I named him: Fabrizio Apiacere, the Master Maestro and Conductor of the Invisible Orchestra. I decided I was going to be the super bard, and put all of my skill points into perform skills (except for 1 each level into UMD so I could use a wand as a conductor's baton).

I've been trying to grab as many masterpieces as I can as I go. (We should be hitting 10 soon and I'm actually thinking about not even learning a lvl 4 spell and just getting 2 masterpieces instead, 10 is a rly good level for them).

My GM and I have basically be using this rule: You can only be playing one song at a time. If an effect is not reliant on the bard continuing to play the song, it does not go away if you start a new song, because they they are still emotionally moved by the original performance even if I'm not playing it anymore.

It's been a blast so far, although we did end up nerfing pageant of the peacock. We ended up ruling that pageant could only be used for 1 check instead of lasting for 10 minutes, and the act of performing it allowed you to make the check. So no free action using bluff to identify a monster, I have to spend the action to do the performance (stopping any performance I had been playing) and spending the BPR to use the effect.

Using those rules it hasn't seemed overpowered, but also doesn't feel like my masterpiece options are a waste.


Ravskinn wrote:
we did end up nerfing pageant of the peacock

It certainly reads as stupidly powerful. How'd you rate the Battle Song of the People's Revolt? It's often mentioned, but really I can't see what the big deal is.

Although if you're busy picking up Masterpieces, you probably don't have many Teamwork feats to share...


It's too bad we'll never get an official answer to this, but what Ravskinn describes sounds reasonable to me.


Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.


Pathfinder Companion, Modules, Roleplaying Game Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Maybe the PF2 Playtest will provide something we can backfit into PF1?

Lantern Lodge

VRMH wrote:
Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.

Its at 400++ FAQ requests and NO REPLY? *Shock

I know Paizo staff can be very busy, but this does warrant a look at by the Paizo design team.

At the very least, it should be clear that there is a significant number of people that feel strongly enough about this for it to be addressed as a FAQ candidate.
Its a disservice to customers to ignore a topic with such a high number of FAQ request.


David knott 242 wrote:

Maybe the PF2 Playtest will provide something we can backfit into PF1?

I am hoping for the same and eagerly looking forward to the bard class preview.


Secane wrote:
VRMH wrote:
Does anyone have any good remarks to bump this thread with? I'm running out of inane babblings.

Its at 400++ FAQ requests and NO REPLY? *Shock

I know Paizo staff can be very busy, but this does warrant a look at by the Paizo design team.

At the very least, it should be clear that there is a significant number of people that feel strongly enough about this for it to be addressed as a FAQ candidate.
Its a disservice to customers to ignore a topic with such a high number of FAQ request.

No need for them to anymore going forward, I doubt we see many if any FAQs answered over the summer and most of the ones we get if not all will be aimed at the Planar Handbook I'm sure.


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Exactly. Time spent on Pathfinder FAQs is time sunk, from Paizo's current perspective.


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Regardless of what happens with PF2, many will continue to play PF as it exists now and those people deserve answers to questions raised long ago like this issue with Masterpieces.

That there is ambiguity on Masterpieces with RAW is clear. We all know GM's who hate on certain classes or features, whether they call it a power issue or not, and Bard-hate has been a thing for years due to dislike of certain tropes or just ignorance of what they're good for. GM's can certainly run a game how they wish, but many may look to forums like this for interpretation of ambiguous things in an attempt to hold to accepted rules.

To the haters who believe that Masterpieces should be treated completely as a type of Bardic Performance, I give you this dilemma to think on:

A bard takes the Triple Time masterpiece and eventually also takes the Discordant Voice feat. If they spend 1 BP to increase land movement for their entire party are you going to accept that everyone in the party within 30 ft of the bard gets +d6 sonic damage for every attack in the next hour without a single additional round of BP spent?

A long-running masterpiece counting as bardic performance would allow that, since masterpieces generally are Supernatural effects. I think many would agree that this isn't something that we'd normally allow, and is far more impacting than letting a low level bard have a masterpiece and a bardic performance be up at the same time.

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