Bard Masterpieces and Bardic Performance


Rules Questions

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Silver Crusade

*nods*

How many Masterpieces are there now?


The simple and fast answer is no. There's no way an off the cuff answer can say yes. So the delay can only mean 1 of 2 things I think.
1) they want to have and answer of, "kinda of" where it's not a full no.
2) they are delaying this so that games that do allow it can without it "breaking the rules"/ being a houserule.


Rysky wrote:

*nods*

How many Masterpieces are there now?

Gosh gotta be 40 by now I'd imagine.

Sovereign Court

Looking at Paths of the Righteous, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the 'pay in advance with lots of bardic rounds' ones are meant to be fired like a spell, and you then benefit from the masterpiece for the listed duration with no strings attached. The performance occurs before the effect is fired off, then you benefit from it afterwards (i.e. like the butterfly wings effect of the starsinger).

Where it is a bit muddled is when I look at the old, original masterpieces, some of which have a short duration and/or round-by-round maintenance costs... those are probably treated like regular bardic performances and can't be stacked.

Scarab Sages

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Wow, they really take forever to answer anything lols.

Well, this is kinda a joke or just novel thread at this stage. It's pretty clear they don't intend to answer, and it's amazing how many people have opted to FAQ this one. Probably one of the more popular threads in that respect. Would be kinda sad if it got answered...


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Pathfinder Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Yow! I would've never guessed that bardic masterpieces could be so controversial.

This said, absent a FAQ ruling from on high, I think Purple Dragon Knight has the right of things:

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Looking at Paths of the Righteous, it is becoming increasingly clear to me that the 'pay in advance with lots of bardic rounds' ones are meant to be fired like a spell, and you then benefit from the masterpiece for the listed duration with no strings attached. The performance occurs before the effect is fired off, then you benefit from it afterwards (i.e. like the butterfly wings effect of the starsinger).

Where it is a bit muddled is when I look at the old, original masterpieces, some of which have a short duration and/or round-by-round maintenance costs... those are probably treated like regular bardic performances and can't be stacked.

So really the most likely answer is that not all bardic masterpieces work the same way. Some are fire and forget, others are a long-term grind, like concentrating on a spell.

Sovereign Court

The line that says...

"If it only requires a standard action to activate, being able to activate a bardic performance more quickly (at 7th level, activation is a move action, and at 13th, it becomes a swift action) applies to the masterpiece as well."

...makes me want to treat all standard action masterpieces like a regular bardic performance, and the other ones as quickened, swift or ongoing spells that basically let you keep using your bardic performance.


Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:

*nods*

How many Masterpieces are there now?

Gosh gotta be 40 by now I'd imagine.

Correction, including this new book and the ones skalds can do just about 50.

50 options that need an FAQ.


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Cavall wrote:
Cavall wrote:
Rysky wrote:

*nods*

How many Masterpieces are there now?

Gosh gotta be 40 by now I'd imagine.

Correction, including this new book and the ones skalds can do just about 50.

50 options that need an FAQ.

AH AH AH AH AH!


Talonhawke wrote:
Nox Aeterna wrote:
Wow, they really take forever to answer anything lols.
Keep in mind that there isn't a dedicated team of FAQ writers. It's the same guys working on the books. So they have to do these when time allows them to not be doing things like working on new books or being at conventions. Once they have that time then they look at what has a high number of request and probably also complexity of the issue, before sitting down and dicussing the particular issue and addressing it. Which is why we don't see that many released, couple that with the constant increase in books and thus unforseen rules interactions, and well you can see why it always seem like they are behind.

While i understand that, we are talking about over an year for an answer, so yeah, i still think they are really, really slow to answer to problems in the product they actually sell to people.

On the bright side GMs can indeed fix what the devs are clearly slacking off on doing.

Silver Crusade

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Orrrrrr as had been suggested previously it might be that it's not a clear cut yes/no answer, and they have to look over all the possible consequences.

Mark Seifter just made this post in the thread asking about FAQ times.

Mark Seifter wrote:
Chances are if a FAQ is high profile, highly asked, unanswered, and seems straightforward, there's a cascade of consequences involved or some other massive complication or a yes or no question has a tentative proto-answer among ourselves that looks something like "Clearly in X case it should be yes and in Y case it should be no, so it can't just be a flat yes or no.

Which leads me to believe that the Masterpiece situation probably falls under "needs a whole blog".


Yeah, I can't fault them for wanting to avoid another rules SNAFU along the lines of "Metaphorical Hands of Effort" or the free action limit FAQ. It would be frustrating to finally provide an answer for this issue, only to be told that it breaks several core mechanics and leads to a dozen new questions because nobody understands what the answer means.

Silver Crusade

*nods*


It would really help to hear someone say "Hey, we're working on it."

Edit: Or even better, "Here's the problem we're having, ..."


miscdebris wrote:

It would really help to hear someone say "Hey, we're working on it."

Edit: Or even better, "Here's the problem we're having, ..."

Truth. We know they're at least somewhat aware of the issue given that Mark's posted in the thread, but the occasional "We haven't forgotten" statement would go a long way.

Designer

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We haven't forgotten.

In fact, the way some of the FAQ alert mechanisms work, it's really impossible for us to forget, so this comment applies to any time in the future as well. Please link to it next time someone in this thread asks if we have forgotten.


I assure you, built in mechanisms or not, I would have made this impossible to forget anyways.


Well, forgotten no. But you guys need to work on the backlog more. Yes, new releases are exciting and all, but you cant forget those who have already paid out hard cash for older products.


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Mark Seifter wrote:

We haven't forgotten.

In fact, the way some of the FAQ alert mechanisms work, it's really impossible for us to forget, so this comment applies to any time in the future as well. Please link to it next time someone in this thread asks if we have forgotten.

Right, my mom never forgot about my constant request for affection and love, but that doesn't mean she ever responded, either.


If I understand the workflow right the hard part about FAQs is you need all the PDT to sit in the same room at the same time. Between them being guests at cons, sick, personal time, and working on their new stuff, it's apparently pretty hard to do.
Then they need to unanimously agree on the answer.

I believe I heard that it was about 1 hour a week to do FAQs, so to get a FAQ out every friday they needed to start on a simple question to get a FAQ out. Then spend remaining time on a bigger issue, like this one.

So while I share the sentiment that I'd love more FAQs out, especially on stuff that makes or breaks a character, like the price of mithral barding, this FAQ, etc. it's not their priority.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Mark Seifter wrote:

We haven't forgotten.

In fact, the way some of the FAQ alert mechanisms work, it's really impossible for us to forget, so this comment applies to any time in the future as well. Please link to it next time someone in this thread asks if we have forgotten.

It's nice to know we haven't been forgotten, Mark!

Hmm


Hmm wrote:
Mark Seifter wrote:

We haven't forgotten.

In fact, the way some of the FAQ alert mechanisms work, it's really impossible for us to forget, so this comment applies to any time in the future as well. Please link to it next time someone in this thread asks if we have forgotten.

It's nice to know we haven't been forgotten, Mark!

Hmm

Not necessarily. Being forgotten would have meant that a reminder could have resulted in an answer fairly soon. The fact that it hasn't been forgotten over this period of time suggests that no answer will be forthcoming for other reasons.


How can I help. Seriously.

Sczarni

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

From my view and a game balance stance, masterpieces should be viewed as the same performance, but over the top.

For example. There's a significant difference between a random garage band and led zeppelin. There is also a significant difference between the effort led put into his performances on stage and the garage band as well. The masterpieces seem to me to be putting on a song that's the same genre, but more effort into the performance to make it bigger and more grandiose than a traditional performance. The extra rounds needed for such a performance are the cost of the effort you're putting in for such a show.

So I don't view masterpieces as a difference performance. I think of masterpieces as an "add-on" that improves a performance in unique ways.


Verzen wrote:
I think of masterpieces as an "add-on" that improves a performance in unique ways.

It's a valid assuption. But that's really the problem here: all our various options make sense and are workable. Though they all have serious drawbacks too.


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The Masterpieces keep coming...but we're still waiting on a ruling.
As long as they are creative and fun, keep them coming!

Dark Archive

How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.


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Davor Firetusk wrote:
How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.

No no no, please not. Bards Unchained would be only optional rules (that all get disallowed in PFS anyway). Now, Ultimate Bard or Advanced Bard Guide on the other hand...


Unfortunately, I doubt they will create books with such a narrow focus as that. The previous editions pre-Pathfinder tried that. I don't think those books sold so well...

I see Masterpieces as being a vehicle to create a character somewhat like Prince Arithon of the Wars of Light and Shadow (by Janny Wurts) He is quite literally my favorite character of fantasy literature. He starts out as the Prince of Shadows and becomes a Master Bard. His masterpieces have astounding results in the stories and Bardic Masterpieces are the closest Pathfinder has come to portraying such a mechanic in game.

If you have never read this Epic Fantasy, you are missing out on a very tragic, vibrant, compassionate character who can really kick butt with music as well as magic and sword.


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Davor Firetusk wrote:
How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.

Wouldn't that be a Bardcover?

Silver Crusade

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Gisher wrote:
Davor Firetusk wrote:
How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.
Wouldn't that be a Bardcover?

G@~*+&nit Gisher

Dark Archive

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Derklord wrote:
Davor Firetusk wrote:
How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.
No no no, please not. Bards Unchained would be only optional rules (that all get disallowed in PFS anyway). Now, Ultimate Bard or Advanced Bard Guide on the other hand...

Ultimate Face should be the title. And the book should have lots of music instrument magic items (including some that let you do damage at a distance based on the epicness of your Perform checks... damage equal to perform check would be rad).


Rysky wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Davor Firetusk wrote:
How about an entire Hardcover, Bards Unchained that collects the existing Masterpieces and tweaks wording as need for a nice way to handle the variety of difficulties in making the ruling.
Wouldn't that be a Bardcover?
G+*+*#nit Gisher

lol

Shadow Lodge

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Derklord wrote:
No no no, please not. Bards Unchained would be only optional rules (that all get disallowed in PFS anyway).

You mean like the Unchained Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue?


TOZ wrote:
Derklord wrote:
No no no, please not. Bards Unchained would be only optional rules (that all get disallowed in PFS anyway).
You mean like the Unchained Barbarian, Monk, and Rogue?

Yeah, because we are talking about the class itself and not about a subsystem, so of course the (allowed) unchained classes are a proper comparison and not the subsystems that are all disallowd.

Wait, no, we aren't.

­
Seriously, is it official troll week or something?

Shadow Lodge

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So like Skill Unlocks? I hear there are even some boons for the Stamina and VMC subsystems.

I'm sorry to hear that pointing out legal PFS options that counter your arguments is trolling.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Derklord wrote:
Seriously, is it official troll week or something?

For future reference, there are two possible ways to deal with a troll, imagined or real.

The first would be to politely explain why their response doesn't fit. In this case, you would say something like 'I think you misunderstood me, I was talking about the tendency I see for subsystems to not be included in the PFS Additional Resources, and the proposed collection of bardic masterpieces sounds like one of those subsystems'. This prevents the troll from latching on to your negative response and generating further harassment from it, making his work more difficult. Not impossible, of course, but substanceless s@+@posts are always easy to make.

The second is to just not respond, preventing the troll from having anything to respond to. The ensuing substanceless posts are that much more transparently trolling at that point.


I didn't actually think you were trolling because from your previous posts, I had thought you a nice and constructive poster who's not foreign to humor, either.

I apologize for getting you wrong.

Shadow Lodge

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Ah, I misread you too then. No worries.

I would also completely agree with your concern about a masterpiece subsystem not being approved for play. I certainly hope that doesn't turn out to be the case.


And the recent PC Heroes of the High Court has 3 more Masterpieces! A 3rd, 2nd and 5th level. One replicates commune, another creates illusory furniture/wardrobe and the other makes targets more susceptible to enchantments.
Masterpieces are definitely here to stay. I guess we will need to interpret them ourselves on an individual basis. Sigh.


Fourshadow wrote:
I guess we will need to interpret them ourselves on an individual basis.

We need to do that anyway, but it would be rather nice to have a default assumption.


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the biggest issue with rules stuff is PFS. Since that's the place that cares what the rule is. If you're wanting to use like 10 different masterpieces, but all your local GMs say that any effect they make stops if you start another performance then the character is wasted. With no rule on this, you either have a character that is wasted some of the time or you don't play a masterpiece character.
Thus people are wanting an official answer because of PFS

Community & Digital Content Director

Removed an unhelpful post.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Thus people are wanting an official answer because of PFS

I'm definitely one of that number. I hope they formulate the answer soon.


Against the recommendations of people on this thread, I HAVE begun holding my breath. I do not intend to exhale until we get an official answer from Paizo on the subject of Bards's Masterpie-----

Crap... apparently my sedentary life has made it so that I cannot hold my breath very long.

If its not too much trouble - an answer would still be nice. :)


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the issue it IS A LOT of trouble to get an answer that isn't no.

The answer it seems they are going for is yes sometimes but we're not sure exactly how to decide this without having to have a blog post listing yes or no for each masterpiece and then add it in all future masterpieces or update the blog.


Chess Pwn wrote:
The answer it seems they are going for is yes sometimes but we're not sure exactly how to decide this without having to have a blog post listing yes or no for each masterpiece and then add it in all future masterpieces or update the blog.

The longer they take to settle on an answer, the more masterpieces that will need to be added to that list. If they set the marker now on intent, then all future masterpieces should then fall in line with this intent.

What are the biggest offending masterpieces that are preventing a straight-up "yes" answer? How many are there?


Lab_Rat wrote:

Hey all! This FAQ is long overdue for those who like to play Bard. I think an FAQ request has been tried before but never mustered enough interest to get on the radar. Let's give this another shot and hopefully we can wrack up enough votes to get attention and fix this issue.

This FAQ request will hopefully get an answer to two questions: If your not sure of the historical / mechanical background for these questions check out the spoilered sections.

** spoiler omitted **...

1) Yes.

2) No.

No FAQ needed.


Rory wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
The answer it seems they are going for is yes sometimes but we're not sure exactly how to decide this without having to have a blog post listing yes or no for each masterpiece and then add it in all future masterpieces or update the blog.

The longer they take to settle on an answer, the more masterpieces that will need to be added to that list. If they set the marker now on intent, then all future masterpieces should then fall in line with this intent.

What are the biggest offending masterpieces that are preventing a straight-up "yes" answer? How many are there?

"yes sometimes but we're not sure exactly how to decide this"

means that there's not an easy way to determine intent of working or not.

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