In a new campaign I'm gonna be a part of I'm going to try for a Paladin/Dragon Deciple.
Need some advice as to how to best build this.
We start at level 3 with max health but after that we roll for health.
Stats are fixed so we all get a 17, 16, 14, 13, 12, and 10 to place however we want.
Is this a gestalt game or a standard game?
Are you set on paladin/DD or up for other suggestions?
Do you want to use natural attacks or 2h fighting?
Is your goal to be a caster who uses melee combat or a melee combatant that can sometimes cast spells? What is your end goal?
Edit: oh have you chosen a race yet?
Its a standard game. The DM has never DMed before but one of the other players is gonna help out.
I'm open to other suggestions but I kinda wanted to try the Paladin/DD setup since my Sorcerer/DD in my last campaign was so fun to play.
I want to be a beefy as possible while sometimes being able to cast stuff, although I'd rather not cast anything that will blow up in my face since I'll have a spell failure chance. And the DM said he was gonna have fun with that...
And I'm planning on having a shield so probably 2h fighting isn't an option.
As for the race we're all being some kind of animal race just for fun. There's already a Kitsune so I thought about being a Catfolk. I don't really care about the race bonuses so don't factor those into anything.
I'm trying to get this to be a fun campaign rather than a strict and serious campaign.
If you're going Catfolk, a build based on Claws is totally feasible
I'd Say Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 3 / DD X
DD X?
And why levels in sorcerer?
What books do you have available to you just core?
Just core books are allowed.
And the instant casting thing didn't even occur to me. I guess I would need at least 1 spellcaster level.
Yeah you'll have to go at least one lvl into sorcerer(or Bard though to get the most out of this you'll probably want Sorcerer) and you won't really have to worry about spell failure since you'll only have access to first level spells which probably won't be that useful when you go into DD anyways.
Also if you haven't decided on a type of dragon yet you could pick Silver to reflect more with Paladin.
I was gonna go with gold actually. Can't go wrong with fire.
If you're going Catfolk, a build based on Claws is totally feasible
I'd Say Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 3 / DD X
or the op could go Paladin 9, Bard 1, DD 10
A while ago when I was discussing my Socerer/DD character someone mentioned how DD is best with Paladin. That's what I'm trying to go for.
DD has better HP dice and the occasional stat boost. Plus I can breath fire...eventually...
If there's a way I can use my claws as my main weapon that would be great. Ditch the sheild and just go balls deep into the enemy with heavy armor.
or the op could go Paladin 9, Bard 1, DD 10If you're going Catfolk, a build based on Claws is totally feasible
I'd Say Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 3 / DD X
So I guess I would start with Paladin 2, Bard 1? Then keep going Paladin till I'm able to do DD, max out DD from there, then continue with Paladin?
So I guess I would start with Paladin 2, Bard 1? Then keep going Paladin till I'm able to do DD, max out DD from there, then continue with Paladin?or the op could go Paladin 9, Bard 1, DD 10If you're going Catfolk, a build based on Claws is totally feasible
I'd Say Paladin 2 / Sorcerer 3 / DD X
you only need one level in bard to get the dragon disciple prc, so you could start Bard 1 Paladin 2 and then keep on leveling up paladin until you are 10th level and then start down the prc
edit: for 2 feats you will want the arcane armor training and mastery feats so you can cast your bard spells in the heavier armor
What's prc?
And so you're saying I shouldn't take any DD until level 11?
An I also can't take arcane armor training or mastery unless I'm a 3rd and 7th level caster respectively.
What's prc?
And so you're saying I shouldn't take any DD until level 11?
prc is short hand for prestige class and yes i think you should hold off on taking it until 11th level so you can get quite a bit of the really nice paladin class feats early that will help you as you walk down the path of the dragon
prc is short hand for prestige class and yes i think you should hold off on taking it until 11th level so you can get quite a bit of the really nice paladin class feats early that will help you as you walk down the path of the dragonWhat's prc?
And so you're saying I shouldn't take any DD until level 11?
In that case why don't I start off with 3 lvls in Paladin, go until i get 9 levels, make the 10th level a bard, then go straight DD from there?
I would do
2lvl paladin for divine grace and Proficiencys)
xlvl bard
xlvl dd
rest bardThere is a feat or trait that lets the first 2 paladin lvl count as bard lvl for casting i believe. Use it, "dead" caster lvl are never a good idea and you already have 1-3 "dead" caster lvl depending on your dragon disciple lvls.
And bard just because you dont want to play a sorc/dd again and more of a "fighter". But still, its a worse choice.
In my humble opinion. Just core is very limiting...
What about 9 levels in paladin, 10th level take bard, then 11+ do DD?
And what feat would that be?
And say I wanted to fight with either two weapons or just my claws, what's the best way to do this?
2-4 Levels of Paladin. 2 for divine grace or 4 if you wanna smite more than twice a day go for 4 levels and oath of vengeance.
Then definitly take a weapon. A lot of people suggest going for natural weapons, but actually THF has the better DPR most of the time. Natural weapons shine when facing "lower" AC enemies - and those usually are no much of a problem anyway.
Also you have to deal with the "armor question". ASF can hurt badly, but spending a feat and some money to neutralize the ASF of an Armor is no bad idea.
Also you could be cheesy and take the "EH (orc), Quicken SLA, Optimistic Gambler"-combination to put your damage over the roof.
For spells, focus on defensive ones - your offense wont be all that great.
Also decide weather to take 4, 8 or 10 levels in Dragon Disciple. Usually 4 or 8 is the way to go - the latter mostly adds some utility stuff. DD10 gets you blindsight, wich can be quiet important but usually isnt worth losing another caster level.
then get smite bracers, a robe of arcane heritage and some nice weapon and you should do fine. Make sure, how your DM deals with the DD-Bite-Attack as its said to always be primary. The bad wording kinda implies you always use it as primary attack while I think that paragraph only refers to when you have more than one natural weapon but not wielding manufactured one.
Ok can we do away with all the abreviations? I only understood half of that.
But don't all the spells have a failure chance due to armor?
I think the only reason I want DD is for the form of dragon and firebreathing abilities
Then forget about everything I said. And masbe about the paladin as well. You might enjoy a sorcerer/DD more than amything else!
You could also instead of all of that nonsense either
a. be a kobold
b. be a human with the racial heritage: kobold feat, or
c. be an aasimar with the same
and then use the Scaled Disciple feat to use a divine spontaneous spellcasting class to qualify for Dragon Disciple!
So you can be a Paladin 4/Oracle 1/DD X or a Paladin 2/Oracle 3/DD X and run around casting divine spells in armor with no worries. Also, if you take the Lore or Nature mysteries you can use your Charisma instead of your Dex for AC. Also, you Oracle's Curse will scale at half rate even when you aren't leveling up as an oracle. You can also still take Eldritch Heritage and a Robe of Arcane Heritage to get some sorcerer bloodline powers or better progression in the Dragon Disciple's bloodline.
PS: you can also qualify as an inquisitor, but they are much more dependent on Wisdom.
And you dident read the part about only using the core books.You could also instead of all of that nonsense either
a. be a kobold
b. be a human with the racial heritage: kobold feat, or
c. be an aasimar with the sameand then use the Scaled Disciple feat to use a divine spontaneous spellcasting class to qualify for Dragon Disciple!
So you can be a Paladin 4/Oracle 1/DD X or a Paladin 2/Oracle 3/DD X and run around casting divine spells in armor with no worries. Also, if you take the Lore or Nature mysteries you can use your Charisma instead of your Dex for AC. Also, you Oracle's Curse will scale at half rate even when you aren't leveling up as an oracle.
PS: you can also qualify as an inquisitor, but they are much more dependent on Wisdom.
You are correct. I shall leave in shame.
Anyways using core there are the following caster options that work:
Sorcerer
Bard
Summoner
Bloodrager
Eldritch Scion Magus
Ley Line Guardian Witch
Among those I'd exclude the Summoner from the beginning as it's extremely dependant on class levels for his eidolon (although synthesist can be used for some easy physical buffs even with a couple of levels).
Ley Line Guardian Witch is notable for the Int sinergy as Dragon Disciple itself increases Int, but as the OP wants to multiclass paladin too we're going to use Charisma instead.
So we have Sorcerer, that can stack its levels for the bloodline abilities and can crossblood in order to grab other stuff that can be increased by the DD.
On the other hand the bard is a less powerful caster but has better BAB and can cast in Light Armor without Spell Failure (Medium Mithral armors also count) and also Shields can be used. Also it has more skills.
Bloodrager with dragon bloodline is better at physical combat prowess, and its bloodline powers are increased like the sorcerer, but is dependant on rounds of Rage that DD don't increase. Can use spells in light and heavy armor (Heavy Mithral also works), while Steelblood archetype can be used with Heavy armors too.
Eldrithch Scion Magus is a subpar magus and you might miss out in spell combat.
I might have to do some research on this Bloodrager. Is it an archtype?
Not sure what core books means or if it's a solid restriction.
If they are all being an "animal race" then they are already using advanced race guide. Kobolds of Golarion shouldn't be that far off. Just get the DM's approval. It's really not a power thing and will give you something different than your sorcerer/DD.
A while ago when I was discussing my Socerer/DD character someone mentioned how DD is best with Paladin. That's what I'm trying to go for.
Yeah, for some reason people think that to play in melee at all you have played a full base attack class at some point. The best option for that is 2 levels of paladin so you get the bonus to your saves from high charisma.
As you know if you have a sorcerer/DD already this isn't true, at all.
The problem I see is that Smite Evil, Lay on Hands, and Divine Grace are the 3 best features of being a paladin.
If you only have 2 levels of paladin then smite only adds 2 damage per hit (4 vs evil dragons/ousiders) which is a huge hit to it. Also only usable once per day. Feats can get around the limited usage, but not the low bonus damage.
Lay on hands at level 2 leaves you healing 1d6 damage per usage your charisma mod +1 times per day.
This leaves divine grace as the only benefit you gain from losing 2 levels of spellcasting and 2 levels of advancing your bloodline.
If I was going to make a DD I would go full class sorcerer into DD. If I wanted a more melee oriented dragon disciple I would run a bloodrager (never taking DD) and play it the same as I would a DD.
Another viable option is Sorcerer 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Disciple 10 and then use the last 5 levels for more Sorcerer if you want casting or more Fighter if you want more pummeling.
My first and currently highest level Pathfinder Society character is an 8th level Gold Dragon Sorcerer 4, Fighter 1, Dragon Disciple 3. Sure he's had some hard times (2 deaths so far) and isn't optimized (only gets 12 CON because of a belt), but he's finally coming in to his own. Magical Knack trait has kept his caster level up to speed, though his actual spell progression is 2 levels behind other Sorcerers. But his latest purchase, the Robe of Arcane Heritage has turned his Sorcerer bloodline (not Dragon Disciple class features) up to 11. This means higher resistance, higher natural armor, fully powered claws, and a breath weapon that does 11d6. With high DEX and a focus on Two-Weapon Fighting, his claws are now formidable weapons. He's all about being in your face.
Hm, I seem to have rambled a bit. I just love how Dragon Disciple helps bring Sorcerers closer to the frontlines. I'm sure the suggestions from other posters can help you with getting DD and Paladin to work if you're still reluctant to take up the mantle of Sorcerer Supreme.
I don't see Bloodrager in the core books. I don't even see the advanced class guide in my files.
I have everything on my laptop.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/bloodrager.ht ml
It's right after the Arcanist in the Advanced Class Guide. A Hybrid Class of Barbarian and Sorcerer. The bloodline abilities are only available during the bloodrage though.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/bloodrager.ht ml
It's right after the Arcanist in the Advanced Class Guide. A Hybrid Class of Barbarian and Sorcerer. The bloodline abilities are only available during the bloodrage though.
Advanced Class Guide is *not* Core.
It is 'Classic' Pathfinder with all the bells and whistles.
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/advancedClassGuide/classes/bloodrager.ht ml
It's right after the Arcanist in the Advanced Class Guide. A Hybrid Class of Barbarian and Sorcerer. The bloodline abilities are only available during the bloodrage though.
Advanced Class Guide is *not* Core.
It is 'Classic' Pathfinder with all the bells and whistles.
True, but he was asking where to find it.
Core is one book, core books is a phrase that makes no sense.
If core books means Paizo hardcover books, that's what I assumed he meant.
If core books means core/APG/UM/UC then how are they using "animal races"?
It seems "Core" means something different to different people.
as core books considering that he wants to play a catfolk (ARG) i thought he meant all the books from the RPG line, that is excluding the setting-specific
Take a look at Oterisk's guide to the Dragon Disciple. Think about the play style you'd like to use. Dragon Disciple really rewards a split caster/melee build, with Sorcerer as the spell caster half - since you get to level up both your arcane spell casting and your blood line abilities.
You can go with a natural weapon build, using just the DD claw & bite at medium to high levels. You'll get enough rounds per day given a high charisma modifier to not need to pick a race with natural weapons. At lower levels consider a long spear for reach: cast and move on your turn, then have both hands on the spear for AoEs.
Paladin 2/Sorcerer 4/DD 1 through 8 is a strong build. Paladin 4/Sorcerer 2/DD 1 through 8 gets you the chance to select Oath of Vengeance to convert lay on hands to smites on a 2-for-1 basis. But those extra two levels of Paladin don't increase your arcane casting, so at higher levels, you'll be throwing level 3 or 4 spells when straight casters will be using level 5 or 6 spells.
My preference is Sorcerer 6/DD 8/Sorcerer 6 - you lose 2 levels of spell casting, so you are equivalent to a 18th level caster at 20th level. You'll be 3 levels behind wizard with your spell casting, but much more effective in melee.
Dragon Disciple level 9 loses you a third level of spellcasting, which is a huge hit. At DD10 you get the Prestige Class capstone abilities. IMO, they aren't worth enough to justify giving up that spellcasting level.
Human and Half Elf are your preferred races. If your GM allows you to take Kobold, then ask for the Scaled Disciple feat. With that, a Paladin 6/DD 10/Paladin 4 build is very strong. This is the only way I know of to substitute divine spellcasting advancement for arcane spellcasting advancement for the Dragon Disciple.
Paladin is not an option for Scaled Disciple.
I'd recommend Sorcerer 1, Paladin 4 (or 5 for divine bond), then Dragon Disciple, if you wanted to focus on melee. Smite and Divine Bond give you some nice bonuses.
Rylar, you are right. I missed the Spontaneous portion of the Spontaneous Divine Casting for Scaled Disciple. So no way to get Paladin spell casting improved using DD. Oracle/DD is a possibility, but Oracle doesn't bring a strong melee component to the mix.
