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Honestly, I think an interesting way to distinguish Lovecraftian Elder Gods in Pathfinder would be to say that they have no alignment. They're not Good, not Evil, not Lawful, not Chaotic, not even Neutral. The laws of the planes don't apply to them, and attempting to divine their alignment simply drives the person who does so irrevocably mad.
I endorse this wholeheartedly. That's pretty much how I play it when I introduce such things into my campaigns.
Its interesting because other RPG systems have incorporated "Good" daemons... and by daemon I dont mean angel.... I mean they were Good aligned daemons.
The general theory being that the universe has to exist in balance and so for every action there has to be an opposite.
Back in the old Warhammer days, there was also a brilliant Chaos god called Malal whose express purpose was to destroy the other Chaos gods... again this was seen as part of the inherent balancing tendency of the universe.
I think Chaotic Good and Lawful Neutral would definitely be viable.... in fact true Chaotic behaviour will always tend to average out somewhere in the middle..... and in fact chaos does follow laws..... the law of consistent randomness!
What would be good would be rules for Exalted/Evangelist/Sentinel followers of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods....
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What would be good would be rules for Exalted/Evangelist/Sentinel followers of the Great Old Ones/Outer Gods....
Based on how they're doing deity articles as of Iron Gods and later, it's quite possible we'll be seeing those rules for at least two such entities - Xhamen-Dor and Hastur - in Strange Aeons.
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Even if that's the case, the entire core conceit of the Outer Gods is that they /aren't/ of the universe so its rules do not apply to them.
The general theory being that the universe has to exist in balance and so for every action there has to be an opposite.
I prefer the theory that the univers is NOT in balance, frankly. It's more interesting if one side has a clear advantage, since that creates conflict. If everything were balanced... eew. Boring! :-P
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I prefer the theory that the univers is NOT in balance, frankly. It's more interesting if one side has a clear advantage, since that creates conflict. If everything were balanced... eew. Boring! :-P
Now, now Mr Jacobs.... there's no need to start another caster vs martial debate is there? ;))
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This discussion made me think of this quote:
"Evil? Your evil is my good. I am Sutekh the Destroyer. Where I tread I leave nothing but dust and darkness, I find that good."
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Now, now Mr Jacobs.... there's no need to start another caster vs martial debate is there? ;))
I prefer the theory that the univers is NOT in balance, frankly. It's more interesting if one side has a clear advantage, since that creates conflict. If everything were balanced... eew. Boring! :-P
Not my intent.
That said... the fact that it's such a hotly discussed topic is strong support of my claim.
Not my intent.
That said... the fact that it's such a hotly discussed topic is strong support of my claim.
I was only messing! :)
The only way I could see a LG Elder would be one so fanatical as to be nigh LE. The essence of the Elders is their very antithesis to our existence.
A very deranged friend of mine had a 3.0 divine... er, patron that was so lawful that NO transgressions were allowed and so 'good' that everyone had to slave away towards the 'common good'. Lawful Good Jackarse was our term. Unfortunately, I was not able to make many of the games, losing out on the whole 'anyone can go too far' theme. In the end, he judged all to fail in their devotion and 'left' the world behind.
Now, now Mr Jacobs.... there's no need to start another caster vs martial debate is there? ;))
I prefer the theory that the univers is NOT in balance, frankly. It's more interesting if one side has a clear advantage, since that creates conflict. If everything were balanced... eew. Boring! :-P
. . . Which brings up the point that being in balance and/or boring depends very much upon WHOSE balance you are talking about . . . .
Maybe instead of Lawful or Good Outer Gods, a better way to go would be to develop the Axiomites a bit further (and their Inevitable servants). Ideologically, they seem to be a good fit for what it seems to me that the OP might be looking for.
I could see the ol' Render of Veils having LN as its alignment. N would make the most sense (and be the safest choice). CN, though, would be a nice dash of paradoxical Lovecraftian flavor: you've got what is basically the manifestation of absolute, horrifying order (probably has a suite of Law-domain spells and abilities at its disposal), but its mere presence throws its surroundings into reality-shattering chaos. Maybe absolute law in the Dark Tapestry IS chaos.
Regardless of its own alignment, Daoloth's "lawful" nature could make for some fun, shake-em-up situations involving lawful outsiders.
I could see plane-hopping adventurers stumble across some corner of Hell or Nirvana or Heaven where, curiously, the imposition of law is lax or altogether absent. Brooding, Dunwichian locals of the surrounding region whisper that it was once a site of especially extreme law--law so strong (some blasphemers might whisper "too" strong) that the metaphysical configuration of the localized reality attracted--or possibly crystallized as--Daoloth itself. Increasingly rigid plans and stratagems to expel the GOO failed. So now it is a shunned place. Its borders are neither quarantined nor guarded--for the more the plane's rulers try to reassert their laws upon the site, the stronger Daoloth's presence becomes.
Besides, Pathfinder DOES generally look for some sort of balance...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Ignoring discussion about game design, and sticking to 'balance of alignments in creature design'...yeah, still no.
Just a quick search of the gods and demigods should tell you- there are about 90 gods with the good domain, and 200 with the evil domain.
It is just the nature of a combat oriented game system- creatures that are easy to make into your enemies are just more useful for the game in general. That is why there are like...4-5 vague good aligned outsider types, and yet there are about 4-5 evil outsider types...per alignment on the evil spectrum.
Also, the idea that evil is multiplying and encroutching at a rate that those who are good cannot keep up and they are slowly being overrun... that is a HUGE theme for a lot of fantasy media. It is the main theme of the world wound, as well as Belkzen. The underdark doesn't see too many orphanages for the death/blind either.
By "some sort of balance", I mean "they don't totally ignore the good planes, or imply they're impotent". I agree that having new evil things is usually more helpful for game design, though, since that's most of what people encounter. XD
I thought I saw some product recently where the "older gods" were kindly but uncomprehending of humans...in other words, a CG Chthulhu.
I think it may have been a comic book but I'm unsure.
Anyone else see this product?
And, incidentally, the Maelstrom is the only infinite plane. XD There's a LOT more chaos than there is law (which must piss Asmodeus off something awful).
And, incidentally, the Maelstrom is the only infinite plane.
Is the Abyss no longer infinite in Pathfinder then?
Desna isn't an outer god despite her domains. Unlike a true outer god, you might be awed by her presence, but your head won't explode because your senses and mind simply can't accomodate her presence.Desna is the good goddess of space/the beyond.
Yes she is chaotic... but this is the vastness of space with swirling raw matter and energies and stuff, not much in the way of civilization. Obviously everything has rules, but in relative terms, it is not very lawful in nature (compare to rigid bureaucracy of Hell, etc.), so there probably shouldn't be a lawful god of it.
I was under the impression her whole "beautiful butterfly goddess" schtick was more the good old "a form you are comfortable with" scenario. Not too unlike Nyarlathotep's many humanoid guises, now that i think about it.
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Outer Gods are eldritch abominations of madness and entropy and are strictly related with Aberrations, so it's almost impossible there will be a Lawful one, but maybe a CG Outer God is feasible
Desna!
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Is the Abyss no longer infinite in Pathfinder then?
The Great Beyond explains that the Maelstrom is "perhaps the only plane that can be called infinite". Others might twist reality and distance so as to be unbounded yet within a set area, or be almost unimaginably huge, but the Maelstrom is large enough to contain, and I quote, "multiple infinite planes".
Basically, it's the largest area by volume. XD Unless that's been changed, anyway.
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I was under the impression her whole "beautiful butterfly goddess" schtick was more the good old "a form you are comfortable with" scenario. Not too unlike Nyarlathotep's many humanoid guises, now that i think about it.Desna isn't an outer god despite her domains. Unlike a true outer god, you might be awed by her presence, but your head won't explode because your senses and mind simply can't accomodate her presence.Desna is the good goddess of space/the beyond.
Yes she is chaotic... but this is the vastness of space with swirling raw matter and energies and stuff, not much in the way of civilization. Obviously everything has rules, but in relative terms, it is not very lawful in nature (compare to rigid bureaucracy of Hell, etc.), so there probably shouldn't be a lawful god of it.
Desna designed her current form with some help.
Based on other posts by Mr. Jacobs, I'd guess that Desna's true form would be some sort of Super Mothra.
A glowy moth the size of a planet (or bigger), perhaps.
Not actually sinister, but could certainly still be daunting. And so we have the pretty elf with butterfly wings as a more approachable avatar.
(Though I also like the idea that Desna may have started life as an intelligent nebula, and then adopted the moth shape because she found insects charming.
Alternatively, if she's old enough, then Desna doesn't look like a moth; moths look like Desna.)
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All planes are infinite. But not all infinites are equal in size. It's a subtle concept, but infinities can be larger or smaller than others. Also in the outer planes, distance is more a concept than something to be measured with a yardstick.And, incidentally, the Maelstrom is the only infinite plane.Is the Abyss no longer infinite in Pathfinder then?
Actually, all planes in Golarion ARE finite... but they're big enough that it's best to treat them as infinite.
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Is the Abyss no longer infinite in Pathfinder then?The Great Beyond explains that the Maelstrom is "perhaps the only plane that can be called infinite". Others might twist reality and distance so as to be unbounded yet within a set area, or be almost unimaginably huge, but the Maelstrom is large enough to contain, and I quote, "multiple infinite planes".
Basically, it's the largest area by volume. XD Unless that's been changed, anyway.
Yup; the Maelstrom IS the biggest, and the key there is the word "perhaps." In truth, it's the largest realm of a number of realms (planes) that are so unimaginably vast that our universe would be like the proverbial grain of sand on all the beaches in all the worlds that have beaches compared to, say, Axis or Hell. And that goes the same for the Malestrom, only substitue Axis or Hell in as that grain of sand.
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In the Warhammer Paradigm, Chaos is ultimately the single primal force with Law just actually only an aspect of Chaos. And ultimately everything that came from Chaos will return kicking and screaming back to it. Is that close to how the universe or multiverse that Golarion is contained in operates?
*POWERATTACKSMITECHAOS*
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In the Warhammer Paradigm, Chaos is ultimately the single primal force with Law just actually only an aspect of Chaos. And ultimately everything that came from Chaos will return kicking and screaming back to it. Is that close to how the universe or multiverse that Golarion is contained in operates?*POWERATTACKSMITECHAOS*
Now now, there's no need to throw a tantrum, young man.