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Which AP (besides RotRL) has the most cohesive story from module to module (or the most potential for it)?
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Curse of the Crimson Throne, Jade Regent, and Reign of Winter all have pretty cohesive stories that drive the campaign.
Curse of the Crimson Throne or Iron Gods, for me. And from what I've seen so far, Hell's Rebels should be very well plotted out too.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne has long been lauded as the most strong narrative (and gameplay), with a memorable villain and a focused story that by the end lets the players know everything important in the campaign.
I think Mummy's Mask has a very strong story, and really puts the PCs at the center of uncovering it. If you're into letting your players come to conclusions rather than having NPCs tell the players what's what.
Iron Gods also has an interesting story, which you can think of in terms of a trilogy with Book 1 & 2 forming Volume 1, Book 3 & 4 forming Volume 2, and Book 5 & 6 forming Volume 3, with the overarching menace becoming more clear over the course of the campaign.
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In no particular order:
1) RotRL (which you mentioned)
2) Jade Regent
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne
4) Iron Gods
Curse of the Crimson Throne, Jade Regent, and Reign of Winter all have pretty cohesive stories that drive the campaign.
Can someone shed some light on the bolded AP? I have heard very mixed things about the cohesiveness of Reign of Winter; some people say that it has a cohesive story while some others say that it's mostly disjointed adventures.
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Thanks, everyone. I guess I am irrationally hoping they create a special edition of Curse eventually, as they did with RotRL, so I'll take as look at the others mentioned more closely. I actually have questions about Reign of Winter as well, so anyone who wants to provide more details on the topic would be welcome.
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I'm near the end of the Shackled Hut (Reign of Winter #2), but I'll fill in what I can for RoW.
The first two adventures are strongly linked, as are the last two. There's also some good callbacks from the final adventure to the issues that brought everyone into the AP in the first place.
The middle two adventures don't interrupt the plot at all, but aren't really vital. Story-wise, skipping 3 and 4 entirely would be fine. But 3 pulls in a lot of Baba Yaga mythos and 4 is a neat adventure. I'd probably amp up Baba Yaga's involvement in those two issues to tie things together better.
Cheers!
Landon
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Curse of the Crimson Throne takes first place. It has a fantastic overall story, great NPCs, and strong cohesion. It's also the best AP overall in my opinion.
Iron Gods is also a very strong contender. Each of its parts is strongly written. The biggest issue with it cohesion-wise is that some player groups may follow clues from Part 2 and want to go directly to Part 5 (with Parts 3 and 4 being strong adventures and plot-relevant, but not necessarily the most obvious place to go after Part 2). I'd put it in close second for best AP overall.
I'm also a fan of Reign of Winter. Parts 3 and 4 aren't really integral to the plot, but they (particularly Part 4) are still good adventures and don't detract from it and fit its overall themes. Part 5 is fantastic. In my top 4 APs (with Kingmaker taking slot 3, but not really being 'cohesive' in the way I think you'd want here).
I'll also add mention of Mummy's Mask. It requires the party to be more self-motivated than the others on the list here and has some more oldschool elements than the other paths listed, but the parts all fit strongly together despite that.
After that, probably Jade Regent. It has some issues with subsystems, a poorly-placed large dungeon, and side-track plots (Part 3 is mostly unrelated to the main path, though I think it has a strong story of its own and is actually one of the more-fun parts in some ways, excluding the Caravan System bits). Having said that, it has a strongly-tied-together core plot with NPCs introduced in the beginning who stick with the party for the whole AP.
I'd say King Maker has the most cohesive story as the story is building your kingdom. The story line follows through all the books though the players don't realize it till closer to the end of the AP.
Wrath of the Righteous is very cohesive too. I'd run the game with no mythic or limit mythic to tier 3. The game is designed to be run with out mythic powers. Otherwise the CRs are out to lunch.
One that can be cohesive is Council of Thieves if you put the work into it. As is the AP is missing connective parts that pull all the parts together.
Our group's experience with Iron Gods is that after beating H*, there's basically no reason to continue the AP as written. We generally ride the plot train without too much complaint, but with nothing more than a vague suggestion that there's something we should be looking for (and no real reason to actually be doing so), I have no real motivation to continue.
Maybe that's different for other groups. I certainly hope so.
Our group's experience with Iron Gods is that after beating H*, there's basically no reason to continue the AP as written. We generally ride the plot train without too much complaint, but with nothing more than a vague suggestion that there's something we should be looking for (and no real reason to actually be doing so), I have no real motivation to continue.
Maybe that's different for other groups. I certainly hope so.
Are you playing or DMing Iron Gods? I am DMing iron gods (ended book 4) and my PCs had no such issue (well apart from a player wanting to change a character after book 2, he wanted to try the slayer class).
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No AP is particularly cohesive as written. CotCT, already mentioned here, is one of the best, because at least it presents the BBEG and has her actions directly and visibly influence the story in the first module, instead of by the end of fourth or something. It still features a two-adventure long "You thought it was a city adventure and it's the time to organize a revolution? Too bad, time to go dungeoncrawling!" derail.
I'd name Wrath of the Righteous perhaps as the most cohesive, as long as players start aware of the fact that they WILL be forced to deal and bargain with forces of evil at some point, because that's just how Paizo rolls.
I'd name Wrath of the Righteous perhaps as the most cohesive, as long as players start aware of the fact that they WILL be forced to deal and bargain with forces of evil at some point, because that's just how Paizo rolls.
Aggg, don't remind me that.
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Our group's experience with Iron Gods is that after beating H*, there's basically no reason to continue the AP as written. We generally ride the plot train without too much complaint, but with nothing more than a vague suggestion that there's something we should be looking for (and no real reason to actually be doing so), I have no real motivation to continue.
Maybe that's different for other groups. I certainly hope so.
I wouldn't say no reason. C* has seen the inside of the Silver Mount, and knows a lot more about the threat that's growing inside there. H* considered her a sibling, and at least one NPC in the second book suggested finding her before H* makes his assault on the Mount. Since the PCs are eventually planning on doing the same, it makes sense for them to try to track down this lead before heading into the dragon's maw.
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Curse of the Crimson Throne gets my nod for first on the story front, while not perfect (go chase macguffin chains in the desert!!!). Then Jade Regent. I haven't run or played Iron Gods or Reign of Winter so can't speak to those.
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In no particular order:
1) RotRL (which you mentioned)
2) Jade Regent
3) Curse of the Crimson Throne
4) Iron Gods
Haven't played Iron Gods, but from reading it, it's enormously disjointed. It's almost three separate adventures - maybe as many as four or five - rather than a single path.
Not to say it's not good in pieces, but it's all over the place in terms of plot. Really, only 1-2 and 5-6 are connected.
Hell's Rebels is the best connected of the four APs that I've read.
Shattered Star is decently cohesive, given the "reunite all the pieces" plot. I'd say WotR is quite cohesive, as is the RotR hardcover (the original adventures are fairly cohesive, but the rewrite really helped). CotCT is among the more cohesive. The departure from Korvosa is a hiccup, but the bit with Thousand Eyes goes a long way towards setting up the Shoanti. If Scarwall had been set up early on as well, it would be among the most cohesive. S&S can be cohesive, as long as the players are on board with being pirates. Serpent's Skull and Jade Regent are cohesive too.
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In a very particular order...
1) Hell's Rebels
2) Curse of the Crimson Throne (has the field trip hiccup, but even that is, at least, motivated by the Big Bad putting the pressure on-I've never felt that it made no sense, it's more of a tonal thing)
3) Runelords Revised
4) Iron Gods.
It's worth mentioning that if you have access to the GM's side of things, all APs make a certain narrative sense- that is, after all, how the fine folks at Paizo plot out what's going to happen- but tone and what the actual characters experience can be a whole different story.
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Because I am a one-woman Hell's Rebels ad, I am motivated to point out that Rebels actually outlines what they need to do over the course of the AP pretty early in book 1. One of the allies outlines 5 steps to rebellion, and each step takes up a book (with the last being two books). This ends up making for a very cohesive AP.
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In fact, as I cover in one of the forewords, Iron Gods IS sort of set up as a trilogy... so that's kind of working as intended.
kind of.
it's still something of a leap to get from 2 to 3.
1-2 makes sense - we are defending Torch and going after the mad machines who tried to destroy it.
2-3? eh? find something that was hinted at?
3-4 kind of makes sense? find a computer thing because of reasons?
4-5? go where the machine tells us to go?
5-6 makes sense - we are going after the evil technic league and the monster divinity under the mountain before it gets us.
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How do you define "cohesive"?
Because your mileage may vary. Jade Regent is a fairly... linear story in that the adventurers go off on an adventure and partway into Book 1 learn about the hook that draws you into the main adventure itself. That said, some people don't like some of the later books.
Likewise, RotR is a very fun and enjoyable adventure... but the links between Books 1, 2, and 3 are background and really, it's three separate adventures that will then lead to Xin-Shalast.
Even WotR suffers from hiccups in that the adventurers start out surviving an invasion, then become Mythic, do the invading themselves, and then start spinning their wheels until the final plot is revealed. While "defeating the Worldwound" could be said to be the ultimate bit to the adventure, you have no idea how and for a bit your group is left to its own devices.
The one AP I've seen recently that has a coherent adventure in that the adventurers know what they want and move toward that goal would be Hell's Rebels. Early on your group realizes they need to become The Resistance, and a little after that your group learns what steps need to be taken to succeed in taking back Kintargo (building up support, finding allies, and so forth).
You might consider Reign of Winter to be cohesive in this way as well - halfway through the first book you learn about Baba Yaga's capture and the fact you need to get to her Dancing Hut and free the old witch. Then it's Find The Plot Coupon for the next three books (and for that matter much of Book 6).
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I'm wondering if a CotCT anniversary edition is Mr. Jacobs' secret project - he's working on something big enough that he was pulled away from both Strange Aeons and Horror Adventures.
Though the RotRL AE didn't pull him off of Shattered Star.
Now I'm really wondering what the heck he's working on.
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I'm wondering if a CotCT anniversary edition is Mr. Jacobs' secret project - he's working on something big enough that he was pulled away from both Strange Aeons and Horror Adventures.
Though the RotRL AE didn't pull him off of Shattered Star.
Now I'm really wondering what the heck he's working on.
(Working from memory here, so take with a grain of salt.)
At the time of RotRL, Paizo had less employees than they do now; he simply didn't have anyone to pass off work to, and it ran him ragged. I believe he, or someone else, mentioned that hiring people has changed that part of the situation.
That said, I believe we are a hardcover announcement short...
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Depends on how well the ROTRL Hardcover sold, I should think.Curse of the Crimson Throne is still 3.5 right? So you'd need to convert?
Do you think Paizo will ever do an Anniversary edition like ROTRL?
It also may depend on how much of the original product they still have. This is arguably the biggest obstacle to my hopes for a Second Darkness update.
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*Takes a drink*
It's from the Pathfinder Drinking Game.
Every time someone on the forums asks in a new thread "when are we getting another hardbound compilation AP" you take a drink.
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*Takes a drink*
It's from the Pathfinder Drinking Game.
Every time someone on the forums asks in a new thread "when are we getting another hardbound compilation AP" you take a drink.
What do you do, drinking-game-wise, when you feel compelled to answer the question in detail every time someone asks it?
Asking for a friend...
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Huzzah! Before noon even!
Gonna be a long day. :-)
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Take an extra drink.
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Tangent, you fool! This is madness! You've just killed many by unleashing your "game": the livers of humankind cannot withstand such punishment!
... but at least you didn't mention the drinking game for paladi-
*finishes stuffing a Aeros-shaped thing in a sack*
Drink water. It'll make you pee, but you'll be healthy.
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I'm wondering if a CotCT anniversary edition is Mr. Jacobs' secret project - he's working on something big enough that he was pulled away from both Strange Aeons and Horror Adventures.
Though the RotRL AE didn't pull him off of Shattered Star.
Now I'm really wondering what the heck he's working on.
(Working from memory here, so take with a grain of salt.)
At the time of RotRL, Paizo had less employees than they do now; he simply didn't have anyone to pass off work to, and it ran him ragged. I believe he, or someone else, mentioned that hiring people has changed that part of the situation.
That said, I believe we are a hardcover announcement short...
Yeah, that sounds right with what I remember.
Well, our hardbacks should be something like Ultimate Intrigue, [Setting/misc book], Horror Adventures, [Bestiary 6 or _____ Codex], I think?
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Tangent, you fool! This is madness! You've just killed many by unleashing your "game": the livers of humankind cannot withstand such punishment!
... but at least you didn't mention the drinking game for paladi-
Light weight.
I'll take his.
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Tangent, you fool! This is madness! You've just killed many by unleashing your "game": the livers of humankind cannot withstand such punishment!
... but at least you didn't mention the drinking game for paladi-
I own stocks in several major liquor companies. I'll make a killing with this killing. =^-^=
(I am evil, after all! ^^)
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I'm wondering if a CotCT anniversary edition is Mr. Jacobs' secret project - he's working on something big enough that he was pulled away from both Strange Aeons and Horror Adventures.
Though the RotRL AE didn't pull him off of Shattered Star.
Now I'm really wondering what the heck he's working on.
I suspect he's probably just busy. Paizo puts out a lot of product these days.
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If the Secret Project is the CotCT Hardcover, they'll probably announce it at PaizoCon.
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Zeitgeist adventure path is super-duper cohesive and tells a very tight narrative, complete with recurring NPCs, and plot threads that mature over multiple adventures. If you get the whole thing, goes all the way up to level 20.
It's 3PP, but Paizo peeps have contributed to different parts of it (e.g. Liz Courts did adv #11).
I'm running it now for my home group, and I strongly recommend it.
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0One Games's "Road to Revolution" is an all-city Adventure Path with the task to discover a conspiracy (i.e. prevent a coup). It features adventures by Tim Hitchcock, Adam Daigle, Liz Courts, John Ling and more Werecabbages. The adventures were written in 3.5 but have been converted to Pathfinder and are available in a collected edition. In conjunction with "The Great City" as a city campaign setting book it is one neat package.
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Which AP (besides RotRL) has the most cohesive story from module to module (or the most potential for it)?
I will list my top five for most cohesive story line and completeness as a path:
1. Reign of Winter. Great from start to finish and needs very little modification.2. Mummy's Mask - It is a fun sky romp with lost treasure, enemies a plenty and an epic ending.
3. Jade Regent - I am a sucker for foreign lands and exotic locals. You get to journey many places and it has an interesting boss to deal with at the end.
4. Carrion Crown - I love undead, gothic and travelling a country haunted by an undead legacy.
5. Serpents Skull - Sorry Varisia, though I love you and all of your many APs, I have to say a jungle theme, serpent cults and many groups all vying for control in Sargava and the Mwangi Expanse edges you out.
Honorable mention goes to Legacy of Fire. Even though I loved running Skulls and Shackles (Arrrhhhh and a calm seas for yah matey), I love Khatapesh and its markets, gnoll slavers, weird cults, and elemental focus.
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In fact, as I cover in one of the forewords, Iron Gods IS sort of set up as a trilogy... so that's kind of working as intended.
You know James, I have to say that I didn't know if I would like Iron Gods. But, after reading and collecting the path, I can't wait to run it one day for my players. Y'all did a great job on it. In fact, I would say 85% of the APs are well written, with some small typos and mistakes. But, overall, they are great to use, modify and run.
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Wrath of the Righteous is pretty laser focused, each book flows pretty well from one to the next.
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Which AP (besides RotRL) has the most cohesive story from module to module (or the most potential for it)?
I will list my top five for most cohesive story line and completeness as a path:
1. Reign of Winter. Great from start to finish and needs very little modification.
2. Mummy's Mask - It is a fun sky romp with lost treasure, enemies a plenty and an epic ending.
3. Jade Regent - I am a sucker for foreign lands and exotic locals. You get to journey many places and it has an interesting boss to deal with at the end.
4. Carrion Crown - I love undead, gothic and travelling a country haunted by an undead legacy.
5. Serpents Skull - Sorry Varisia, though I love you and all of your many APs, I have to say a jungle theme, serpent cults and many groups all vying for control in Sargava and the Mwangi Expanse edges you out.Honorable mention goes to Legacy of Fire. Even though I loved running Skulls and Shackles (Arrrhhhh and a calm seas for yah matey), I love Khatapesh and its markets, gnoll slavers, weird cults, and elemental focus.
I don't know all of the Aps in your list but carrion crown is the antithesis of a cohesive story line.
Which AP (besides RotRL) has the most cohesive story from module to module (or the most potential for it)?
I will list my top five for most cohesive story line and completeness as a path:
1. Reign of Winter. Great from start to finish and needs very little modification.
2. Mummy's Mask - It is a fun sky romp with lost treasure, enemies a plenty and an epic ending.
3. Jade Regent - I am a sucker for foreign lands and exotic locals. You get to journey many places and it has an interesting boss to deal with at the end.
4. Carrion Crown - I love undead, gothic and travelling a country haunted by an undead legacy.
5. Serpents Skull - Sorry Varisia, though I love you and all of your many APs, I have to say a jungle theme, serpent cults and many groups all vying for control in Sargava and the Mwangi Expanse edges you out.Honorable mention goes to Legacy of Fire. Even though I loved running Skulls and Shackles (Arrrhhhh and a calm seas for yah matey), I love Khatapesh and its markets, gnoll slavers, weird cults, and elemental focus.
I don't know all of the Aps in your list but carrion crown is the antithesis of a cohesive story line.
So you'd call his list... just a guess~!?
(•_•) / ( •_•)>⌐■-■ / (⌐■_■),
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Which AP (besides RotRL) has the most cohesive story from module to module (or the most potential for it)?
I will list my top five for most cohesive story line and completeness as a path:
1. Reign of Winter. Great from start to finish and needs very little modification.
2. Mummy's Mask - It is a fun sky romp with lost treasure, enemies a plenty and an epic ending.
3. Jade Regent - I am a sucker for foreign lands and exotic locals. You get to journey many places and it has an interesting boss to deal with at the end.
4. Carrion Crown - I love undead, gothic and travelling a country haunted by an undead legacy.
5. Serpents Skull - Sorry Varisia, though I love you and all of your many APs, I have to say a jungle theme, serpent cults and many groups all vying for control in Sargava and the Mwangi Expanse edges you out.Honorable mention goes to Legacy of Fire. Even though I loved running Skulls and Shackles (Arrrhhhh and a calm seas for yah matey), I love Khatapesh and its markets, gnoll slavers, weird cults, and elemental focus.
I don't know all of the Aps in your list but carrion crown is the antithesis of a cohesive story line.
More seriously, based off of a fellow moose's opinion, Carrion Crown has a pretty cohesive story - you're pretty much solidly introduced to the over-all goal (or a fair proximity of it) at the beginning and the causes are consistent throughout -, but doesn't necessarily have a cohesive plot.
Each individual AP has a "here's what we do now" and tone very different from the one before - that can be kind of jarring.
Weirdly, Serpents Skull is even less cohesive, despite being very cool. There are basically three tangentially related plots.
The rest I've not played through (yet), so I can't comment.