'Low' Int and Metamagic


Rules Questions


21 people marked this as FAQ candidate. Answered in the FAQ. 2 people marked this as a favorite.
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So I am daring to play a wizard with Int 12 with no plans to increase it. My plan was to take Metamagic Feats to alter lvl 0, 1, 2 spells into the higher slots. From my understanding of the rules this seem pretty legit but when talking about this in other places there seems to be a split about it. If this was a home game and the GM cool with my plans I wouldn't bring this up but this is a Society Character who is only lvl 2 at the moment and does not have metamagic feats yet but I plan to take them.

Though it seems the reason for the split has to do with the ruling in the FAQ for the Core Book: http://paizo.com/products/btpy88yj/faq?Pathfinder-Roleplaying-Game-Core-Rul ebook#v5748eaic9r9w

So, in short can my Int 12 Wiz, when high enough level, use a metamagic feat to make a metamagic spell that requires a level 3 slot or greater?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

Based on that FAQ, I'd say you're out of luck.

I'd probably allow it in a home game, but I really don't think you'd get away with it in Society play.


Casting a spell slot is where the int requirement comes from.


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Chess Pwn wrote:
Casting a spell slot is where the int requirement comes from.

I am not getting your wording?


John Templeton wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Casting a spell slot is where the int requirement comes from.
I am not getting your wording?

Trying to cast a spell with a 3rd level spell slot is what has the int requirement of 13. So, no, you can't do this.


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Milo v3 wrote:
John Templeton wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
Casting a spell slot is where the int requirement comes from.
I am not getting your wording?
Trying to cast a spell with a 3rd level spell slot is what has the int requirement of 13. So, no, you can't do this.

Casting a 3rd level spell, yes. Not using a 3rd level slot.

Quote:
Effects of Metamagic Feats on a Spell: In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. Saving throw modifications are not changed unless stated otherwise in the feat description.
Quote:
To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.

Spell level, not spell slot.

From the Magic chapter of the core rulebook. Specifically about divine spells:

Quote:
Spell Slots: The character class tables show how many spells of each level each can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be her due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

That and the wording of everything else says the minimum stat needed is based on the spells level, not the slot it uses.

That section seems to have been removed from the arcane magic section in the crossover from 3.5 to Pathfinder, however.


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Agree with (most) other posters. You cannot cast spells of 3rd level without 13+. A spell "operating at" a level is not the same as the spell *being* that level.

Here's the short answer for you though, for the future: Don't make PFS characters that rely on GM interpretation. Ever. This is a recipe for disappointment and disaster.


Was 12 your highest stat?
What exactly is your end game?
Also, you didn't start with any metamagic when this is your plan? Seriously?
How drunk were you when you accepted this challenge and promptly created your character?


you can prep a normal lv1 spell as a lv1 spell in a 9th level slot if you wanted. But preparing a lv1 with a metamagic makes it a lv2 or higher and thus you need to be able to cast the appropriate spell level to cast it


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I have thought about this character for awhile and from my reading of the rules think it legit and rather 'black and white' until this FAQ was pointed out.

Below States I can put my lower spells in higher slots despite my Int (or whatever your spell stat is). Great!

Spell Slots:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

Below states that 1) The Metamagic Spell will take a higher slot 2) but the spell is still the same level.

Metamagic Feats:
Metamagic Feats:
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up. Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities.

So this seems pretty black and white to me; ie a level 1 spell using a Metamagic Feat (That isn't Heighten) no matter the slot+ is still a level 1 spell so doesn't care about my char's Int 12.

It's this FAQ that I wasn't even aware of at the time of making the character that possibly throws it out of wack but I don't think the ruling has the intent to screw low caster stat characters out of metamagic feats essentially.

If it is the case though, I will adjust my plans to make a low casting stat wizard work.


yes, you need the int to cast the minimum slot that the spell could be in. if the metamagic makes it a 3rd level spell then it needs 13 int.


I can't see how having 12 INT score would forbid you of using higher level slots. And it is really clear that the spell level is unchanged when you apply metamagics to it. It is also awesomely clear that what you need to cast, learn and prepare the spell is an INT score of, at least, the spell level. Also I can't see how this FAQ you mentioned would affect to your question, as it is a different thing.

I beleive that, RAW, you can do as you intend


Hello John,

I can understand the confusion, however I would argue that most players intuition would be that the intent of it was not to function as you thought it did.

I would argue the wording, while sloppy, was intended to try to cut off every avenue of attack for players trying to gain unforeseen advantages from Metamagic, and to be "comprehensive" in the case of future publications. It seems this created an "interpretation loophole".

I believe the RAI, and the RAW (presuming D20PFSRD was not updated to be more "errata-friendly" in its wording), supports the entry in the FAQ... but as opposed to most questions on this board, I do actually believe in this case the FAQ was warranted.


Chess Pwn wrote:
yes, you need the int to cast the minimum slot that the spell could be in. if the metamagic makes it a 3rd level spell then it needs 13 int.

Luckily the only meta magic that changes the spell's level to match the spell slot its in is Heighten Spell. All other spell's are fair game. Empowered Shocking Grasp? 1st level spell in a 3rd level spell slot, still only need 11 Intelligence.


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Drimoran wrote:

I can't see how having 12 INT score would forbid you of using higher level slots. And it is really clear that the spell level is unchanged when you apply metamagics to it. It is also awesomely clear that what you need to cast, learn and prepare the spell is an INT score of, at least, the spell level. Also I can't see how this FAQ you mentioned would affect to your question, as it is a different thing.

I beleive that, RAW, you can do as you intend

It is this section here: In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster.

That puts it in question.


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In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Since you have only have a 12 INT counting the spell as a 3rd level spell would be more of a disadvantage. Since you can’t cast 3rd level spells not being able to cast the spell is more of a disadvantage then being able to cast the spell.

Sorry but the FAQ clearly stats you use the more disadvantageous level.


and needing the int to cast is is disadvantageous for the caster. thus it counts as the higher level spell needing the higher int.


He understands it's stupid and I admit to feeling bad for the party he drags down, he's not asking viability (for which there is 0) he's asking for legality. Keep this in mind when posting on the thread. As for legality, by RAW as I understand it, it's legal. Spells and Spell Slots are seperate entities so they are not to be confused as such


Azten wrote:
Chess Pwn wrote:
yes, you need the int to cast the minimum slot that the spell could be in. if the metamagic makes it a 3rd level spell then it needs 13 int.
Luckily the only meta magic that changes the spell's level to match the spell slot its in is Heighten Spell. All other spell's are fair game. Empowered Shocking Grasp? 1st level spell in a 3rd level spell slot, still only need 11 Intelligence.

The Metamagic FAQ would tend to disagree with you. In particular:

Quote:
In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage


Take an empowered (+2) 1st level spell:
a) it uses a 3rd level spell slot
b) it otherwise functions as a 1st level spell

metamagic wrote:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell
c)FAQ's only answer the specific question asked.
FAQ wrote:
Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

d) b) and c) are not mutually exclusive.

e) it is treated as a 3rd level spell for concentration checks, spell recall and pearl of power.
f) in all other respects it is a 1st level spell, so requires only 11 intelligence to cast.

Sovereign Court

In the CRB, the rule is that metamagic cares about spell slots, and ability scores care about spell levels. So there it's quite legal.

The FAQ changes the rule, it's in the PFS FAQ, not the CRB FAQ.

Keep in mind that PFS FAQs are not written by the PDT but by the campaign team. Their scope is only PFS.


Pretty sure it is actually in the CRB FAQ.


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Yes, it is. The link and hot link take you to the CRB FAQ page. What PFS FAQ?


Well, it would be quite weird to say 'He is barely capable of casting a very basic spell, but this doesn't stop him from modifying it in three different ways at once'.

However, given that there are items like Headband of vast intelligence +X and Tome of clear thought +X, starting with Int 12 doesn't stop you from casting highest-level spells.


Some posters here appear to be conflating two things.

1) a 5th level wizard with a 12 Int can prepare 1st or 2nd level spells in his 3rd level slots. That is clear.

2) the same wizard cannot prepare lower level spells in those 3rd level slots using metamagic which increases the slot level to 3rd. Why not? Because the feat descriptions and FAQ state it counts as the most disadvantageous level for the caster.

In a home game, it's unlikely that a GM wouldn't allow it anyway, but not in PFS.


Metamagic wrote:

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

No, you cannot do this. A INT score of 12 represents somebody who just isn't smart enough to cast more than the most basic spells.


Gilarius wrote:
the feat descriptions and FAQ state it counts as the most disadvantageous level for the caster.

Incorrect. It is only the FAQ that states that.

The actual metamagic feat description, and the actual feats themselves are very clear.

Quote:
Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

For the ability to prepare a spell, you look at Magic and see:

Preparing Wizard spells wrote:
To prepare a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score of at least 10 + the spell's level.

As pointed out, spell slots and spell levels are two distinct and different things. Preparing a 1st-level spell in a 3rd-level slot does not make the the spell a 3rd-level spell. Preparing a 1st-level spell in a 3rd-level slot because it has a metamagic modifier of +2 still doesn't make it a 3rd-level spell.

So the Feats and the Rules themselves do not support the FAQ. It's still a FAQ, of course. Just from what I can tell it clearly isn't a 'rules-clarification' as an 'This-isn't-what-the-rules-say- but-try-it-this-way' FAQ.

Also, remember a FAQ only applies to what the FAQ specifically applies to.

Mark Seifter wrote:
A FAQ has the scope that the FAQ says it has. ... no more, but also no less.

In this case, he was refering to a FAQ about monks' fists counting as magic for overcoming DR and also counting as magic against incorporeal creatures which their ability does not specifically allow as written. Restricting the FAQ, as he says, prevents people from claiming if a monk's fists count as Adamantine for overcoming DR, now they also bypass hardness, etc.

That means, if you use the FAQ, remember it was asking mainly about the level for using recall devices like pearls of power and such. In those instances, obviously you are recalling a spell you had in a certain slot. You can try and expand and extrapolate that focused answer to apply to every instance, but you would be using the FAQ wrong. If you instead realize that the FAQ applies to getting back a spell expended from an already existing slot that it was placed in, then it works perfectly fine.

Using the associated spell level does seem to apply when using magic items, such as reading a scroll of extended sleep or something, but those are magic item rules, similar to the pearl of power answer in the FAQ. The FAQ also refers to Magus recall ability, but since that is functionally identical to the magic item ability (and that's basically what they're all based on) it's easy to see why that answer applies.

The real problem is that the FAQ answers a question that also includes Concentration checks. So if you're going to use the FAQ, then you must assume that it's more difficult to concentrate on such a spell. That's just the way it is if you believe the FAQ. That doesn't mean it applies to other areas that are already spelled out, like placing a 1st-level spell in a 3rd-level slot making it a higher level spell.

Despite the FAQ's use of the words 'in general', treating a metamagic spell 'in general' as always being treated in the worse way to the caster leads to stupid situations. For instance, imagine a wizard activating a wand blindly. He casts an empowered fireball. Everyone else can make a Spellcraft check to identify that it's a fireball using the spell level for fireball (not the spell slot it would have, unless it was heightened). The caster can't figure it out with the same check. "I don't know....maybe if it was burning hands..."

Also, imagine if a wizard wanted to fill all his slots with metamagic spells, using silent magic missile for an example. First off... he gets nothing in his 1st-level slots, since magic missile is 1st-level and Silent Spell increases the slot by +1. So he fills his 6 2nd-level slots with silent magic missile then he fills his 4 3rd-level slots with silent magic missiles, then he fills his 2 4th-level slots with silent magic missiles. Somehow, we're supposed to believe that it makes any sense that those spells work or function in any way different from each other even though everything else says that they aren't in any way different from a normal 1st-level magic missile spell (other than the benefits from Silent Spell).

So, I can see that there's room for debate in general Core Rules. I would allow it but it sounds like Pathfinder Society is usually more strict, so you're probably out of luck there, like most people say.


OK, lets go against what I've always been told about FAQs and say that this one applies outside of the stated question.

FAQ indicates "in general". It should only be applied where there is some grey area as to whether the spell level or spell slot should be used. It can hardly be called a grey area when the rules on meta magic clearly state with zero ambiguity that a spell modified by metamagic does not change the level of the spell. It might use a 3rd level spell slot but it is still a first level spell.

wizard wrote:
To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level.

This only cares about the spell level.

Of course if this FAQ actually applies outside of the stated question, and I am wrong about the above, then we have another candidate for stealth errata. Because that would be a significant change to the actual rules.


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Those that agree with me, it probably help if we mark the original post for FAQ.


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It seems that people are thinking about this a little too rigidly. A metamagic'ed spell uses a spell slot higher because of two reasons:

1: Game balance; the spell would be too powerful if left in its original spell slot modified thusly, so it is increased to a higher spell slot.

2: Because the modified spell requires the mental ability, magical aptitude, and raw arcane (or divine) power of a character who can use those slots.

Being able to cast Magic Missile and being able to cast an Empowered, Maximized Magic Missile are two completely separate undertakings. A metamagic enhanced spell is just too complex to be performed by a character without the ability score. In essence, an Empowered Magic Missile is just as complex and just as strenuous on the mind as a Fireball or Lightning Bolt. You can't cast those, you can't cast Empowered Magic Missile.


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From the Wizard: "To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. "

Metamagic feats are noted as: "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level, even though it is prepared and cast using a higher-level spell slot. "

So I concur that there's a lot of overthinking going on. The 12 INT wizard can learn, prepare or cast a spell of up to L2. A Metamagic'd L2 spell is still a second level spell.

As to why the player wants to play such a character, there are still some players who want to play a character for reasons other than maximizing the power of the character. It seems like a low INT wizard would create a different dynamic, and could be a fun character to play. Metamagic providing a use for those higher level slots seems like it will add to that character's viability.


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If you want to talk about themetacs, why can't he just 'get' how to alter the spells he can do? What if he is a prodigy at altering magic?


Kyaadaa wrote:
Being able to cast Magic Missile and being able to cast an Empowered, Maximized Magic Missile are two completely separate undertakings. A metamagic enhanced spell is just too complex to be performed by a character without the ability score. In essence, an Empowered Magic Missile is just as complex and just as strenuous on the mind as a Fireball or Lightning Bolt. You can't cast those, you can't cast Empowered Magic Missile.

Unfortunately, that just isn't true or supported by the rules and wording. An empowered magic missile in a 3rd-level slot is not weaker than an empowered magic missile in a 4th-level slot or an empowered magic missile in a 9th-level slot. The correct explanation is that 'A metamagic enhanced spell is just too complex to be performed by a character without the additional spell slots, not ability score.'

The rules in fact are very, very clear that the spell is in all ways identical to a normal magic missile spell except as indicated by the metamagic feat; in this case, it does 1.5x more damage and it requires additional spell slots. The slot that it comes out of specifically has no effect on anything about the spell. It's not harder to dispel, it still counts as 1st-level against globe of invulnerability, it's just as easy to identify, and its Saving Throw DC doesn't change.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
John Templeton wrote:

I have thought about this character for awhile and from my reading of the rules think it legit and rather 'black and white' until this FAQ was pointed out.

Below States I can put my lower spells in higher slots despite my Int (or whatever your spell stat is). Great!

** spoiler omitted **

Below states that 1) The Metamagic Spell will take a higher slot 2) but the spell is still the same level.

** spoiler omitted **

So this seems pretty black and white to me; ie a level 1 spell using a Metamagic Feat (That isn't Heighten) no matter the slot+ is still a level 1 spell so doesn't care about my char's Int 12.

It's this FAQ that I wasn't even aware of at the time of making the character that possibly throws it out of wack but I don't think the ruling has the intent to screw low caster stat characters out of metamagic feats essentially.

If it is the case though, I will adjust my plans to make a low casting stat wizard work.

Your link go in the middle of the FAQ page, but no to a specific FAQ.

You mean the one about heighten that say:
"Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version."

or this one?

FAQ wrote:

Metamagic: At what spell level does the spell count for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power?

The spell counts as the level of the spell slot necessary to cast it.

For example, an empowered burning hands uses a 3rd-level spell slot, counts as a 3rd-level spell for making concentration checks, counts as a 3rd-level spell for a magus's spell recall or a pearl of power.

In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster. The advantages of the metamagic feat are spelled out in the Benefits section of the feat, and the increased spell slot level is a disadvantage.

Heighten Spell is really the only metamagic feat that makes using a higher-level spell slot an advantage instead of a disadvantage.

The former clearly say that you need to be able to cast spell of that level if you are using heighten spell, so you will not be able to benefit from it with intelligence 12.

The latter clearly say: "for concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power" and then "In general, use the (normal, lower) spell level or the (higher) spell slot level, whichever is more of a disadvantage for the caster", so not an absolute rule.

To define when that "in general" apply we should look the other rules:
"To learn, prepare, or cast a spell, the wizard must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell level. The Difficulty Class for a saving throw against a wizard's spell is 10 + the spell level + the wizard's Intelligence modifier."

and

"Metamagic Feats

As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.
Metamagic feats do not affect spell-like abilities."

To me it seem very clearly spelled by the rules. The level of the spell don't change, so you can add 7 levels of metamagics to a 2 level spell, memorize it in a 9th level slot and cast it, as long as none of those metamagics is Heighten spell.


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The link takes you to the CRB FAQ and should place you in it where the trouble maker Q&A is on the top of the page which tech would be in the 'middle of it'. Not talking about Heighten Spell, we are all on board that is 'no go', period.


Heighten FAQ

FAQ:
Heighten Spell: How does this spell combine with other metamagic feats and using higher-level slots for lower-level spells?

Heighten Spell is worded poorly and can be confusing. It lets you use a higher-level spell slot for a spell, treating the spell as if it were naturally a higher level spell than the standard version. Unlike Still Spell, which always adds +1 to the level of the spell slot used for a spell, Heighten Spell lets you decide increase a spell's level anywhere from +1 to +9, using a spell slot that is that many spell levels higher than the normal spell.

The language implies that the heightened spell uses whatever spell level is used to prepare or cast it, but the rules text was inherited from 3.5 and doesn't take into account (1) the normal rule allowing you to prepare a spell with a higher-level spell slot, and (2) combining it with other metamagic feats.

For (1), having Heighten Spell doesn't mean any spell you cast with a higher-level slot is automatically heightened; you still have to make the decision to prepare or cast the spell an normal or heightened.

If you are a non-spontaneous caster (such as a cleric or wizard) who wants to prepare a lower-level spell in a higher-level slot, there is no reason not to use Heighten Spell on that spell (it doesn't cost you any extra time or any other game "currency").

If you are a spontaneous caster, heightening a spell when using a higher-level spell slot still increases the casting time, just like any other use of metamagic, so you have to weigh the benefits of either

• casting it normally using the higher-level slot
vs.
• increasing the casting time to cast it as a heightened spell and treat the spell as the level of the spell slot you're using.

Example A 10th-level sorcerer could cast fireball using a 3rd-, 4th-, or 5th-level spell slot, it would only be a standard action casting time, would count as a 3rd-level spell, and have a DC of 13 + Charisma bonus. If she had Heighten Spell and wanted to heighten it using a 4th- or 5th-level spell slot, it would have a full-round action casting time, but would count as a 4th- or 5th-level spell and have a DC of 14 + Cha bonus (for a 4th-level spell) or 15 + Cha bonus (for a 5th-level slot).

For (2), you can't apply Heighten Spell to a spell at no cost: any increase to the effective spell level of the spell must be tracked and paid for by using a higher-level spell slot, above and beyond any other spell level increases from the other metamagic feats.

Example: A 15th-level wizard has Quicken Spell. If he prepares a quickened fireball, that requires a 7th-level spell slot (fireball 3rd level + quicken 4 levels). The spell's DC is still 13 + his Int bonus because it's still just a 3rd-level spell, even though it's in a 7th-level spell slot. If he also has Heighten Spell, the spell is not automatically heightened; it still counts as a 3rd-level spell and has the DC of a 3rd-level spell. If he wants to increase the quickened fireball's effective level with Heighten Spell, he needs to use an even higher level spell slot than the adjusted spell level from the Quicken Spell feat. Increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +1 (from 3rd to 4th) requires using a spell slot +1 level higher (in this case, an 8th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot); increasing the fireball's effective spell level by +2 (from 3rd to 5th) requires using a spell slot +2 levels higher (in this case, a 9th-level spell slot instead of a 7th-level slot).

Another way to look at (2) it is to add Heighten Spell first, then other metamagic feats. Continuing the above example, you'd first heighten the fireball to a 4th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires an 8th-level spell slot (fireball 4th level + quicken 4 levels). Or first heighten the fireball to a 5th-level spell, then quicken it, which requires a 9th-level spell slot (fireball 5th level + quicken 4 levels).

(Heighten Spell is a weak metamagic feat and has limited utility when combined with other metamagic feats.)

posted June 2013

Remember, a heightened continual flame at 4th level counts as a 4th level spell vs. darkness. A continual flame with any other +1 metamagic is only 3rd level vs. darkness. Heighten changes DC, the rest don't.

I would say you use the higher spell slot, but cast per spell level not slot level for the needed stat.

/cevah


Marked for FAQ

Shadow Lodge

Also marked for FAQ, but I agree with the OP. This totally doable.


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The whole reason we have this mess is because Paizo kept Heighten Spell rather than simply having spells cast in a slot actually BE a spell of that level >_<


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A full reading of the rules on spells and metamagic makes it pretty evident that spell level and spell slot level are often used interchangeably. Unless anyone here wants to suggests that

Quote:


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

Means a wand of fireball and a wand of maximized fireball cost the same, since clearly the maximized fireballs spell level has not been increased.

For those suggesting the FAQ doesn't apply in this case because FAQ's only apply to the specific question, you aren't understanding what "In general" means. There are quite a few FAQ's that provide more of a blanket rule as opposed to answering only a specific question.

For the suggestion that "In general" only applies to those things where it is not a gray area, please see the example of metamagic items above. Furthermore, considering the division on the issue in this particular thread, it is clearly a gray area, thus the FAQ applies by that reasoning.

I don't think anyone can argue that requiring the higher int would fulfill the most disadvantageous clause of the FAQ.

Having been around when the FAQ was written, in fact having been involved in the debates that resulted in the FAQ, it is quite clear to me that the intent of the FAQ is to apply to all rules regarding metamagic that existed at the time the FAQ was written, and that if they ever intend something to vary from those rules they will explicitly call it out (the general rules of metamagic feats not modifying the spell level are not applicable in this scenario as being a specific exception to the FAQ ruling).


I don't see why this is even an issue. The rules clearly state that, for example, a Wizard with 13 Int still gets his lvl 3+ spell slots and can still fill them with lower-level spells. They also clearly state that a spell functions at its original level when modified by metamagic. This is explicitly stated. Now, regarding the FAQ stating that you use the higher spell level for concentration checks, that still doesn't mean that you're not able to cast it if you lack sufficient governing ability score; it just means that the concentration check is higher. Granted, this might just be an oversight on the Dev's part (lord knows they've had plenty of those) but unless there is a clear and explicit contradiction (see "effects related to race) there's no good reason to presume that it is in error.

Regarding metamagic wands, yes, it does mean that a 1st level spell modified by a +2 metamagic in wand form costs the same as the unmodified 1st level spell wand. But it also means that a 3nd level spell with +2 metamagic cannot be made into a wand because wands must be 4th level or lower based on the spell slot necessary to cast the spell. In essence, a Wand/Potion can only have up to a 4th level spell slot and nothing higher; as opposed to a Wizard with 14 Int who can, very well, have right up to 9th level spell slots and is able to fill them with spells up to 4th level and/or metamagic modified spells up to 9th modified level. And yes, if you, with 14 Int and a lvl 9 spell slot, prepared and cast a 4th level with +5 metamagic in your 9th level spell slot, you'd need a 9th level Pearl of Power in order to recall it. But using a PoP to recall the spell isn't directly dependent on having enough Int for a 9th level spell.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
bbangerter wrote:

A full reading of the rules on spells and metamagic makes it pretty evident that spell level and spell slot level are often used interchangeably. Unless anyone here wants to suggests that

Quote:


Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat).

Means a wand of fireball and a wand of maximized fireball cost the same, since clearly the maximized fireballs spell level has not been increased.

For those suggesting the FAQ doesn't apply in this case because FAQ's only apply to the specific question, you aren't understanding what "In general" means. There are quite a few FAQ's that provide more of a blanket rule as opposed to answering only a specific question.

For the suggestion that "In general" only applies to those things where it is not a gray area, please see the example of metamagic items above. Furthermore, considering the division on the issue in this particular thread, it is clearly a gray area, thus the FAQ applies by that reasoning.

I don't think anyone can argue that requiring the higher int would fulfill the most disadvantageous clause of the FAQ.

Having been around when the FAQ was written, in fact having been involved in the debates that resulted in the FAQ, it is quite clear to me that the intent of the FAQ is to apply to all rules regarding metamagic that existed at the time the FAQ was written, and that if they ever intend something to vary from those rules they will explicitly call it out (the general rules of metamagic feats not modifying the spell level are not applicable in this scenario as being a specific exception to the FAQ ruling).

Full quote from the feat section of the rules

PRD wrote:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

As you can see, I have bolded the part after the the piece you bolded.

The Dev felt necessary to specify that you must use the modified value. Why, if that was automatic as you affirm?

Claiming "expertise" because you where there during the debate has 0 value. I was there and participated, like you, and I have the opposite opinion and feel that the Dev were saying the opposite of what you say.

My "expertise" cancel yours? Yours mine?

What matter is the rule text and the FAQ text, and they say that, with the exception of the lengthened metamagic, the actual level of the spell don't change, only the spell slot change.


Kazaan wrote:


Regarding metamagic wands, yes, it does mean that a 1st level spell modified by a +2 metamagic in wand form costs the same as the unmodified 1st level spell wand. But it also means that a 3nd level spell with +2 metamagic cannot be made into a wand because wands must be 4th level or lower based on the spell slot necessary to cast the spell. In essence, a Wand/Potion can only have up to a 4th level spell slot and nothing higher; as opposed to a Wizard with 14 Int who can, very well, have right up to 9th level spell slots and is able to fill them with spells up to 4th level and/or metamagic modified spells up to 9th modified level. And yes, if you, with 14 Int and a lvl 9 spell slot, prepared and cast a 4th level with +5 metamagic in your 9th level spell slot, you'd need a 9th level Pearl of Power in order to recall it. But using a PoP to recall the spell isn't directly dependent on having enough Int for a 9th level spell.
PRD wrote:


A wand is a thin baton that contains a single spell of 4th level or lower. A wand has 50 charges when created—each charge allows the use of the wand's spell one time. A wand that runs out of charges is just a stick. The price of a wand is equal to the level of the spell × the creator's caster level × 750 gp. If the wand has a material component cost, it is added to the base price and cost to create once for each charge (50 × material component cost). Table: Wands gives sample prices for wands created at the lowest possible caster level for each spellcasting class. Note that some spells appear at different levels for different casters. The level of such spells depends on the caster crafting the wand.

I see nothing in the wand rules that say it is based off of spell slot used. The word slot does not even appear in the text above.

The metamagic text on creation of wands and the like also makes ZERO reference to slot used.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Full quote from the feat section of the rules
PRD wrote:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

What is the spell level of a magic missile that has been quickened? It is still a 1st level spell. We know that because the rules tell us that for all purposes the spell level is not modified (except in the case of heighten). The text here refers to spell level, not spell slot level. Now it is clear the intent was the spell slot level required - hence my reference above that the two terms are at various places in the rules used interchangably. But you cannot in good faith argue that the maximized wand of fireball does not cost the same the as non-maximized version without recognizing this lack of clarity in the rules. And if you understand this lack of clarity here, you then need to question and examine the use of the words "spell level" in places in the rules, and understand from the context whether they mean spell level or spell slot level.

Everyone is quick to point out "In all ways, a metamagic spell operates at its original spell level" then completely ignores it when it is inconvenient. Either spells really do operate at the original spell level, or there is a lot of ambiguity in the rules about when they actually mean spell level or spell slot level. The FAQ clarifies for us how to handle the ambiguity - "In general" (or until we write a new rule/feat/other that says otherwise) use which ever is most disadvantageous to the caster.


Higher spell level. That means it's virtual level based on the addition of metamagic levels. It still functions as a spell of a lower level, but level limits (nothing higher than a 4th level spell) take the metamagic virtual adjustment into consideration. Price is still the same, maximized or not, but a maximized Fireball spell has a virtual spell level of 6 and this is considered only for whether or not the resulting spell can fit into a wand. It cannot, btw. You could maximize a 1st level spell, say, Shocking Grasp, and fit it into a wand, and it would cost the same as an un-metamagic'ed Shocking Grasp wand. But, as I said, that has absolutely nothing to do with the ability of a Wizard with Int 14 to cast a maximized Fireball in a 6th level slot (or higher) provided he has 6th level slots available and, by RAW, an 11th level Wizard does, indeed, have 6th level spell slots regardless of how much or how little Int he has.

So, again, for review:

PRD/Magic/Arcane Spells wrote:
Spell Slots: The various character class tables show how many spells of each level a character can cast per day. These openings for daily spells are called spell slots. A spellcaster always has the option to fill a higher-level spell slot with a lower-level spell. A spellcaster who lacks a high enough ability score to cast spells that would otherwise be his due still gets the slots but must fill them with spells of lower levels.

Explicitly and unequivocally, a Wizard with, say, 12 Int can, indeed, use 3rd and higher level spell slots, but only for spells of level 0-2. You can cast Magic Missile using a 4th level spell slot even if you don't have 14 Int. That is a fact.

PRD/Feats/Metamagic wrote:
As a spellcaster's knowledge of magic grows, he can learn to cast spells in ways slightly different from the norm. Preparing and casting a spell in such a way is harder than normal but, thanks to metamagic feats, is at least possible. Spells modified by a metamagic feat use a spell slot higher than normal. This does not change the level of the spell, so the DC for saving throws against it does not go up.

Applying metamagic to a spell doesn't change the level of the spell, but rather the minimum spell slot it requires and usage of a slot is, again, not tied to casting stat. This can, for the sake of simplicity, be distinguished as the spell level and the virtual spell level. The virtual level is only taken into consideration when considering what slot to use, what level of Pearl of Power will allow you to recall it, etc. It does not change whether or not you can cast the spell based on how high of Int (or other governing stat) you have.

PRD/Feats/Metamagic wrote:
Magic Items and Metamagic Spells: With the right item creation feat, you can store a metamagic version of a spell in a scroll, potion, or wand. Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of the metamagic feat). A character doesn't need the metamagic feat to activate an item storing a metamagic version of a spell.

Level limits for potions and wands apply to the spell's higher spell level (after the application of metamagic). Shocking Grasp is a 1st level spell. Maximize is a +3 metamagic. 4 is higher than 1, but 1 is not higher than 1. You can clearly see what is meant by higher level; it's talking about the virtual level, not the spell level. Again, this applies only to whether or not the wand/potion can accommodate the spell. It does not affect the price of the wand because that is not listed. Both a Wand of Shocking Grasp as well as a Wand of Maximized Shocking Grasp cost 750 gold. But you cannot make a Wand of Maximized Fireball because its virtual level is 6 and wands can only hold a (virtual) level spell of 4 or lower.


Kazaan wrote:
The virtual level is only taken into consideration when considering what slot to use, what level of Pearl of Power will allow you to recall it, etc.

According to this FAQ errata, that 'etc' should (unless otherwise specified) include every situation where it would disadvantage the caster to treat it as higher level, including caster stat limitations.


Kazaan wrote:
stuff

I am very familiar with how this is intended to work. Though virtual spell level is not a game term. The preferred wording is 'spell slot level'. (Or you could use 'effective spell level' as used in the heighten feat, though I feel that is really more to relay the spell DC is effectively the higher level - or if dispel magic is used against it, etc).

I completely disagree with your assertion that a wand of maximized shocking grasp only costs 750gp, but rather that it costs 21k gp, though the rules aren't as clearly defined for this case - as having it cost more is not necessarily disadvantageous to the creator of such a wand. But why would ANYONE ever buy a normal wand of 'X' when they could for the same price get the maximized, or extended, or whatever version for the exact same price (barring the GM simply fiating that no one actually makes the more powerful versions in his world).

Kazaan wrote:


Applying metamagic to a spell doesn't change the level of the spell, but rather the minimum spell slot it requires and usage of a slot is, again, not tied to casting stat.

While this is very much true, that casting stat does not matter for spell slot used, Matthew Downie already pointed out that the 'etc' covers a list of things. The specific list in the FAQ (concentration DCs, magus spell recall, or a pearl of power) is not an exclusive or complete list - because if it was the words in the FAQ for "In general..." would be completely unnecessary.

For example, it also covers a magus spell recall ability (which functions much like a pearl of power), casting stat requirements (being debated here), and anything else that can conclusively be labelled as being disadvantageous to the caster to take one ruling vs another.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Kazaan wrote:
Higher spell level. That means it's virtual level based on the addition of metamagic levels. It still functions as a spell of a lower level, but level limits (nothing higher than a 4th level spell) take the metamagic virtual adjustment into consideration. Price is still the same, maximized or not, but a maximized Fireball spell has a virtual spell level of 6 and this is considered only for whether or not the resulting spell can fit into a wand. It cannot, btw. You could maximize a 1st level spell, say, Shocking Grasp, and fit it into a wand, and it would cost the same as an un-metamagic'ed Shocking Grasp wand.

Even without considering the spell slot used, the minimum caster level is way higher, so it don't cost the same.

The minimum caster level for a maximized shocking grasp is 7.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Matthew Downie wrote:
Kazaan wrote:
The virtual level is only taken into consideration when considering what slot to use, what level of Pearl of Power will allow you to recall it, etc.
According to this FAQ errata, that 'etc' should (unless otherwise specified) include every situation where it would disadvantage the caster to treat it as higher level, including caster stat limitations.

But that etc. applies to the question in the FAQ, not to unrelated questions.


I accept the FAQ goes beyond the scope of what is covered explicitlty in the FAQ itself, but the FAQ can't (shouldn't would be more accurate, I guess) change the rules, you need an errata for that. It can only clarify potential ambiguity. Metamagic not changing the level of the spell is pretty explicit. There can be no ambiguity there.

And when something goes on to clarify (after the application of the metamagic feat) while it is less than precise wording the rules are not meant to be a legal text and the meaning is clear. Don't be needlessly pedantic. For the purposes of wands and potions you use the modified spell level (or spell slot if you prefer that term).


FAQ change the rules all the time.

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