Experimental APs - why not one going to Level 20?


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Some GMs already level up PCs at certain milestones without bothering with XP.


The APs even provide the milestones to simply award levels at.

I prefer XP, though. I guess in part because it means the PCs are always getting a reward for doing stuff.

Re: Mythic - any mythic monster can have dual initiative. It's just an ability you can assign. The Agile template's simply the template that has it; it's not the only way to get it.


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James Jacobs wrote:

To be clear... It's not Paizo that is not all that interested in doing another full Mythic AP from 1st to 20th level and 1st to 10th mythic tier. It's me. Of course, since I'm the Creative Director and in charge of the AP content at the end of the day, that's sorta the same thing.

And it's not so much the fact that Mythic is "broken." I think that now that I've had a few years to get used to how Mythic works and how it changes the game, we COULD do another one that would be more successful, but frankly, I'm not all that eager to engage the negativity that certain folks on the boards are carrying for such a project anytime soon. I'd rather let it lie fallow for a while, use Mythic content to bolster monsters now and then, and then MAYBE look into tentatively engaging mythic content for PCs from a more informed and more experienced viewpoint somewhere down the road.

But the community needs to get a little less toxic about the topic first before I'm comfortable trying that. In the meantime, of course, we have PLENTY of cool and exciting adventure paths and other products in the works. In fact, I'm relatively sure that some parties are gonna be able to make it to 17th level in Hell's Rebels before the end of the last adventure, so that's pretty cool.

Anytime you decide to go with a mythic AP again, you might want to look into things like "how do boss monsters survive getting one- or two-shotted with 500 damage hits?" as prime topics, since that seems something you guys were utterly unprepared for when designing WotR. Not to mention that the opposition could just as well have hit the PC's with wet noodles for all they were good for.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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magnuskn wrote:
Anytime you decide to go with a mythic AP again, you might want to look into things like "how do boss monsters survive getting one- or two-shotted with 500 damage hits?" as prime topics, since that seems something you guys were utterly unprepared for when designing WotR. Not to mention that the opposition could just as well have hit the PC's with wet noodles for all they were good for.

You've made your point on this topic a hundred times over already.


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Tangent101 wrote:
The problem with that is that players seem to prefer XPs for killing things, not just leveling up at X point. There are exceptions, true. But most of us are here from D&D 3.5 and some from all the way back to 1st edition AD&D. So we're used to XPs for killing things, not just giving us levels because the story calls for it.

My group is entirely made up of people who have played since 1E and everyone was happy when I dropped XP.


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I tried to drop experience points but my group put an end to that right away.


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We've dropped XP. I like XP, but it's clunky, and, since it provides nothing "tangible" in PF anymore (as it's unable to be touched, it effectively doesn't exist), it's easier and less paperwork to do without it.


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I tend to escalate encounters a lot, and I like that the increased XP means that the PCs are being rewarded for it.

In a sense its a vicious circle (PCs leveling faster means stronger opponents means PCs leveling faster) but it's a vicious circle I'm completely cool with.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber

Here is the thing to remember: We buy the APs for two primary reasons. First, to save time. Second, Paizo puts out a quality product in a world we enjoy.

While a GM could upgrade an existing AP they may not have the time to invest in this. That's why I'm interested in Paizo doing this. :) Also, because the point of experimental APs is to do something different and interesting. I believe an AP going to level 20 would fulfill that criteria. :)

That's not to say I can't turn Runelords into a L1-20 AP, or Reign of Winter. Any GM could, with enough work.

Shadow Lodge

Zhangar wrote:
In a sense its a vicious circle (PCs leveling faster means stronger opponents means PCs leveling faster) but it's a vicious circle I'm completely cool with.

Yeah I'm on the opposite end of that. After seeing my PCs skyrocket several levels above the expected level of their current Kingmaker chapter at the time due to the extra encounters, challenges, expansions, and so forth that I added (Rivers Run Red was supposed to end around level 7 or so, my group was 11 at its end), and having to constantly edit, exchange, power-up, and otherwise change everything in the campaign from that point on, we agreed to drop XP entirely starting with the next campaign.


The nice thing about them hitting 20th really fast is that they can't exceed 20th unless you say so. ;)

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I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... I'll have to run the numbers to see if that's even possible.

But... PCs WILL reach 17th level before the end of Hell's Rebels, and that's mostly due to the fact that two of the six adventures ended up being longer than normal; part 2 went over and resulted in the cancellation of a (then unwritten) backmatter article, while part 4 benefited from having an extra 32 pages of content to stretch its wings.

Being able to do 6 60 page adventures instead of 6 50 page ones would basically grant us that mystical 7th adventure... but at two costs:

1) The loss of one or more support articles/elements.

2) The loss of the adventure developer's free time. This second one might be doable IF I can get out far enough ahead of time... rather than get the authors started on their adventures a year before that adventure is to go to print, get them started 18 months before, say, so that I'll have extra time to develop the longer adventures. It's not something that is sustainable, and wouldn't be something that we'd likely do more than once (since tying up a developer with so much extra work would have ripple effects on other products), but it MIGHT work.

No guarantees, but at this point, that's the only way I can see us even having a chance to do a 1st to 20th level AP.

In any event, we've got APs nailed down and in the works now all the way through until Gen Con of 2017, so at the very earliest, we're still a minimum of 2 years away from seeing something like this come to light. And even then, it's doubtful. But. I'm no the case to see if it CAN work! Wish me luck! :-P


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Definitely wishing you luck!

Sovereign Court

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Same! Good luck!


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Just don't hurt yourself or burn yourself out :-)

Silver Crusade

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I don't ever need a 1st to 20th AP, but if there is a solution that can make those who clamour for one happy I'm for it. I'd probably recommend a 1st-20th AP be set somewhere previously explored by the setting so GMs who miss the Backmatter could use other resources to augment the campaign.

So even though many people are likely to whine, I'd recommend Varisia. As Varisia has had such a heavy amount of support and information released on it over the years, the fewer Backmatter articles would hurt the AP less (so many other sources to go to).


James Jacobs wrote:

I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... I'll have to run the numbers to see if that's even possible.

But... PCs WILL reach 17th level before the end of Hell's Rebels, and that's mostly due to the fact that two of the six adventures ended up being longer than normal; part 2 went over and resulted in the cancellation of a (then unwritten) backmatter article, while part 4 benefited from having an extra 32 pages of content to stretch its wings.

Being able to do 6 60 page adventures instead of 6 50 page ones would basically grant us that mystical 7th adventure... but at two costs:

1) The loss of one or more support articles/elements.

2) The loss of the adventure developer's free time. This second one might be doable IF I can get out far enough ahead of time... rather than get the authors started on their adventures a year before that adventure is to go to print, get them started 18 months before, say, so that I'll have extra time to develop the longer adventures. It's not something that is sustainable, and wouldn't be something that we'd likely do more than once (since tying up a developer with so much extra work would have ripple effects on other products), but it MIGHT work.

No guarantees, but at this point, that's the only way I can see us even having a chance to do a 1st to 20th level AP.

In any event, we've got APs nailed down and in the works now all the way through until Gen Con of 2017, so at the very earliest, we're still a minimum of 2 years away from seeing something like this come to light. And even then, it's doubtful. But. I'm no the case to see if it CAN work! Wish me luck! :-P

I read the APs like a magazine, so I like the stuff in back.

For an AP or two, I wouldn't mind extra adventure material though, if we got to a higher level of play. What would be especially cool is if you tossed in just a wee bit of mythic (let's say 1 or 2 tiers max right at the end...so nothing where you go full scale 1-10 mythic...but right at the end...that extra boost could also add a little to the XP perhaps as well?)

Sovereign Court

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A 1-20 set in Varisia might be a good way to take on the two Eternal Runelords (Sorshen/Xanderghul) without needing Mythic (or just a splash, as GWL suggests).

It might also be a good place for the long-foretold clash between Pazuzu and Lamashtu. ^_^

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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captain yesterday wrote:
Just don't hurt yourself or burn yourself out :-)

Hurting myself is unlikely.

Burn out is VERY likely, and in fact may well be the reason why, in the end, this doesn't happen...

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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GreyWolfLord wrote:
What would be especially cool is if you tossed in just a wee bit of mythic...

Very unlikely. The reactions some folk had to Wrath still leave a sour taste in my mouth for mythic PCs. I'll surely use mythic now and then for the MONSTERS though!

Sovereign Court

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James Jacobs wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
What would be especially cool is if you tossed in just a wee bit of mythic...
Very unlikely. The reactions some folk had to Wrath still leave a sour taste in my mouth for mythic PCs. I'll surely use mythic now and then for the MONSTERS though!

I'm sad about no-more-mythic-PCs (although I totally understand the reason).

I hope we'll eventually get a little splash of it in an AP.

Scarab Sages

GreyWolfLord wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... I'll have to run the numbers to see if that's even possible.

But... PCs WILL reach 17th level before the end of Hell's Rebels, and that's mostly due to the fact that two of the six adventures ended up being longer than normal; part 2 went over and resulted in the cancellation of a (then unwritten) backmatter article, while part 4 benefited from having an extra 32 pages of content to stretch its wings.

Being able to do 6 60 page adventures instead of 6 50 page ones would basically grant us that mystical 7th adventure... but at two costs:

1) The loss of one or more support articles/elements.

2) The loss of the adventure developer's free time. This second one might be doable IF I can get out far enough ahead of time... rather than get the authors started on their adventures a year before that adventure is to go to print, get them started 18 months before, say, so that I'll have extra time to develop the longer adventures. It's not something that is sustainable, and wouldn't be something that we'd likely do more than once (since tying up a developer with so much extra work would have ripple effects on other products), but it MIGHT work.

No guarantees, but at this point, that's the only way I can see us even having a chance to do a 1st to 20th level AP.

In any event, we've got APs nailed down and in the works now all the way through until Gen Con of 2017, so at the very earliest, we're still a minimum of 2 years away from seeing something like this come to light. And even then, it's doubtful. But. I'm no the case to see if it CAN work! Wish me luck! :-P

I read the APs like a magazine, so I like the stuff in back.

For an AP or two, I wouldn't mind extra adventure material...

Same here, the back matter is essential. My favorites are the town/city writeups. My party really likes to explore and roleplay, and that gives them an ocean to swim in that the adventure itself is embedded in. For instance, my table spent a total of about 10 hours in Iadenveigh in Iron Gods, doing nothing but roleplaying and meeting and finding spontaneous side quests. I think they spent more time there than they did in the entirety of the Choking Tower itself

Even the stories, which I was slow to warm to, are fantastic. For instance, the Tooth and Hookah in the first book of Mummy's Mask is the party's base of operations, they're convinced Tooth is an avatar of the crocodile god (because mysteriously whenever there's been a bar fight and someone was bullrushed into his little well, there hasn't been a body afterwards).

Basically, I just want to put in my two cents that the back matter is every bit as essential to the adventure being part of a living and breathing world as the actual adventure text. I'd be saddened at losing half that back matter to add another dungeon for XP.

What about a best of both worlds experiment for going 1-20? For example, the town writeups with all those fantastic locations and plot hooks? Maybe eliminate one of the two back matter portions and make it double length for a town. Use the extra space to give enough details that the DM can run with it (not like stat blocks and such, but sort of like the half-page writeups of adventure locations at the back of Osirian: Legacy of Pharaohs).

Instruct the DMs to drop those in when appropriate during the adventure, with a couple sentences of suggestions for where it might make sense. That maintains the desire for added XP, but keeps a good portion of what makes the back matter so valuable.


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James Jacobs wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
What would be especially cool is if you tossed in just a wee bit of mythic...
Very unlikely. The reactions some folk had to Wrath still leave a sour taste in my mouth for mythic PCs. I'll surely use mythic now and then for the MONSTERS though!

Which is a shame because I LOVE Mythic. I would probably be bored with Pathfinder if it wasn't for Mythic. I wish it would get more support, but I guess I'll have to work on my own expanded Mythic feats, spells, and powers.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Well... hearing more and more feedback from folks who DO enjoy mythic content certainly helps. There just didn't seem to be a lot of that love associated with Wrath, alas. Either because people are more prone to post when they're angry than they are when they're happy, because I take the negative comments to heart more quickly than the positive ones, or more likely due to a combination of the two.

But yes... if you DO enjoy mythic, let us know. And that goes for enjoying it but being frustrated by elements in Wrath of the Righteous... but just do your best to present yourself in a positive way with constructive criticism and not a negative way with destructive criticism over and over and over and over...


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Duiker wrote:

Same here, the back matter is essential. My favorites are the town/city writeups. My party really likes to explore and roleplay, and that gives them an ocean to swim in that the adventure itself is embedded in. For instance, my table spent a total of about 10 hours in Iadenveigh in Iron Gods, doing nothing but roleplaying and meeting and finding spontaneous side quests. I think they spent more time there than they did in the entirety of the Choking Tower itself

Even the stories, which I was slow to warm to, are fantastic. For instance, the Tooth and Hookah in the first book of Mummy's Mask is the party's base of operations, they're convinced Tooth is an avatar of the crocodile god (because mysteriously whenever there's been a bar fight and someone was bullrushed into his little well, there hasn't been a body afterwards).

Basically, I just want to put in my two cents that the back matter is every bit as essential to the adventure being part of a living and breathing world as the actual adventure text. I'd be saddened at losing half that back matter to add another dungeon for XP.

While I agree the support articles are valuable, as they are the place for extra rules and stuff required to support the AP, I think they are less crucial now than they were 8 years ago. It used to be the primary way they expanded world lore, but now we have the Campaign Setting line, Player Companions, plus the core rules, etc. The world is very well flushed out. It won't hurt things to have a little less support for one 6 issue stretch.

So I can easily see Paizo doing a grand 1-20 AP for a special occasion that really tried to pack in the full campaign experience. They need to do something for that 10th Anniversary, right?


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James Jacobs wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:
What would be especially cool is if you tossed in just a wee bit of mythic...
Very unlikely. The reactions some folk had to Wrath still leave a sour taste in my mouth for mythic PCs. I'll surely use mythic now and then for the MONSTERS though!

But-but, how will I get to Albuquerque?

Oh god!

It's the North Pole Fiasco all over again!

Sovereign Court

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deinol wrote:
So I can easily see Paizo doing a grand 1-20 AP for a special occasion that really tried to pack in the full campaign experience. They need to do something for that 10th Anniversary, right?

No! 10th anniversary is for Second Darkness! Don't jinx it! ^_^


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James Jacobs wrote:

Well... hearing more and more feedback from folks who DO enjoy mythic content certainly helps. There just didn't seem to be a lot of that love associated with Wrath, alas. Either because people are more prone to post when they're angry than they are when they're happy, because I take the negative comments to heart more quickly than the positive ones, or more likely due to a combination of the two.

But yes... if you DO enjoy mythic, let us know. And that goes for enjoying it but being frustrated by elements in Wrath of the Righteous... but just do your best to present yourself in a positive way with constructive criticism and not a negative way with destructive criticism over and over and over and over...

I can only comment on my experience so far. I ran a planescape campaign that started at level 1 in 3.5 and migrated to Pathfinder Beta and then Pathfinder before ending at level 20. So I know how challenging it is to write good encounters for non-mythic level 17-20 characters.

I'm currently playing through Wrath. We're level 13, Tier 5, and just got to book 4. While I hear that later books become easy, we certainly haven't gotten there yet. We nearly got stomped by

Spoiler:
Some nasty assassin demon who went first and summoned 5 copies of himself.

So if it turns into easy mode later, I haven't seen it. But while we've had some tough encounters, overall the game has been quite fun as Mythic has really let us feel like Greek Myth style heroes. Our swashbuckler fought a demon in the arena single handedly and it was awesome to watch.

But I can understand why later books might not have been able to gauge the potency of level 17+ Tier 8+ characters, since nobody had much experience with them at that point.

I want to see it expanded on because there are lots of non-core feats/spells/etc that have become pretty standard that don't have mythic versions. There are some specialized classes that could use a little more love. I'd also love to see more Mythic Paths developed.

I see a lot of potential in the way the Mythic system works, it's way better than the old Epic handbook.


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James Jacobs wrote:

I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... I'll have to run the numbers to see if that's even possible.

...
Wish me luck! :-P

Awesome! Thanks for coming up with this. I hope it works. Even if it doesn't come to pass, I do really appreciate you taking the time to listen to us cantankerous fans.

James Jacobs wrote:
But yes... if you DO enjoy mythic, let us know. And that goes for enjoying it but being frustrated by elements in Wrath of the Righteous... but just do your best to present yourself in a positive way with constructive criticism and not a negative way with destructive criticism over and over and over and over...

I'm another person that enjoys Mythic. I think that Wrath had the disadvantage of not having as much experience with mythic to balance it well. Another AP would be more successful at that. And any mythic AP will need more attention paid to the blurbs on adjusting the difficulty because mythic can widen the spread.


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I thought the premise of WotR was spot-on. I do like some of the Mythic rules, even most of them. Without derailing this thread, is there somewhere to contribute positive and/or constructive feedback regarding Mythic rules?

There appears to be a beefy 3rd party publisher entirely focused on Mythic support material. Might be worth a gander when the opportunity, means and time presents themselves.

As a thought experiment, how about a campaign where the characters are already 17th-20th and slowly accrue a few mythic tiers (1 per chapter)? As a tie-in to the "All Stars AP" mentioned upthread?

Especially in the case of already-20th, XP concerns go out the window. It becomes a matter purely of the story and the challenges therein. Not all of them need to be a serious challenge to the PCs ... they challenge the PCs to protect the bystanders instead, at least now and then.


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I enjoyed Wrath specifically and Mythic in general. More would be great, though I am not in favor of messing with the well-oiled machine that is the AP (six installments, several support articles, etc.)

Paizo Employee Developer

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Duiker wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


I read the APs like a magazine, so I like the stuff in back.

For an AP or two, I wouldn't mind...

Same here, the back matter is essential.....

As the guy who's been in charge of the AP back matter for well over the last three years, I like hearing things like this. :)


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James Jacobs wrote:

Well... hearing more and more feedback from folks who DO enjoy mythic content certainly helps. There just didn't seem to be a lot of that love associated with Wrath, alas. Either because people are more prone to post when they're angry than they are when they're happy, because I take the negative comments to heart more quickly than the positive ones, or more likely due to a combination of the two.

But yes... if you DO enjoy mythic, let us know. And that goes for enjoying it but being frustrated by elements in Wrath of the Righteous... but just do your best to present yourself in a positive way with constructive criticism and not a negative way with destructive criticism over and over and over and over...

I enjoy Mythic. I think if you guys used a little bit of the lower tier mythic there wouldn't be that many complaints. Even those who complain seem to enjoy the low tier, it's only tier 3 and above where I hear people complain about.

I like the idea of Mythic (but then I am one that enjoyed Epic in 3e) and using it when we want. That said, I think we DO use mythic monsters more than PC's being mythic.


Adam Daigle wrote:
Duiker wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


I read the APs like a magazine, so I like the stuff in back.

For an AP or two, I wouldn't mind...

Same here, the back matter is essential.....

As the guy who's been in charge of the AP back matter for well over the last three years, I like hearing things like this. :)

You're doing a great job! The AP's have taken the place of the magazines I used to get monthly (magazine that have largely vanished), and hence I'm a Big reader of the articles. Many people note that we have enough APs to play for a LOOONG time at this point, and I am nowhere close to getting even half of them played.

However, I can ALWAYS use the good read of the adventure, and even more the articles in the back keep the interesting points about Golarion's world and other items in a tangible format where I don't have to actually play the game to enjoy them a LOT!


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook Subscriber
Adam Daigle wrote:
Duiker wrote:
GreyWolfLord wrote:


I read the APs like a magazine, so I like the stuff in back.

For an AP or two, I wouldn't mind...

Same here, the back matter is essential.....

As the guy who's been in charge of the AP back matter for well over the last three years, I like hearing things like this. :)

I usually read the backmatter before the actual adventure, especially the bestiary section, ecology of.. sections, and diety write ups. And articles like the recent one about the afterlife, etc.

And if I am not that interested in the adventure itself, usually I find the backmatter still interesting.


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If it wasn't for gross misinterpretation of back matter I wouldn't be the man I am today.


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We love Mythic at our table. I'm running one mythic campaign and playing in one mythic campaign. I wish there was at least a few modules here and there that offered more official mythic content. That's what has made me a fan of the work that Legendary Games is doing with all of their mythic material. They've picked up the ball and run a long way with it.


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James Jacobs wrote:

Well... hearing more and more feedback from folks who DO enjoy mythic content certainly helps. There just didn't seem to be a lot of that love associated with Wrath, alas. Either because people are more prone to post when they're angry than they are when they're happy, because I take the negative comments to heart more quickly than the positive ones, or more likely due to a combination of the two.

But yes... if you DO enjoy mythic, let us know. And that goes for enjoying it but being frustrated by elements in Wrath of the Righteous... but just do your best to present yourself in a positive way with constructive criticism and not a negative way with destructive criticism over and over and over and over...

Well, you've been in the business long enough to recognize that far, far more people go out of their way to complain about things than to compliment things. That's pretty much why you evidently had people complaining about the use of "brothels" but don't have people complaining about the use of "dance halls". I'm at least as indignant at hypersensitivity as the hypersensitive are about s-e-x stuff, but aside from this paragraph, I don't go out of my way to send you a message complimenting when you print material that doesn't shy away from adult naughty-bits material while being full of violence, because I'm LAZY.

So that said, here's the solicited input. I'm one session from the end of Wrath. I've been playing and DMing non-stop since 3.0e was released. We've gone through Runelords, Council of Thieves, parts of Second Darkness and Carrion Crown as well as a bunch of Paizo and non-paizo modules. We've played through Shackled City and all of Slumbering Tsar. We've played everything that existed for 3.5e Eberron, we've played through Red Hand of Doom, and we've played several modules more than once. You're talking about 10-12 hours a week. I'm not inexperienced.

I've really enjoyed Wrath (I specifically begged one of the group to DM it for me), but I knew going in what I was getting. I was getting a game cranked up to 11, where things would be over-the-top and not necessarily difficult. So far this is my favorite to have played. I won't pretend that's the case for everyone at the table, but it is for me.

It's a riot. My PC is fun, and can do pretty spectacular things. Very much feels like a hero-of-heroes. Sure, he's mechanically "broken", but that he's got miracle as a spell-like-ability once a day (Divine Source) isn't horrible, it's just awesome.

To me, mythic is supposed to be what it is - as you printed it. Sure, there are some exceptionally powerful abilities that maybe should be toned down, but overall I quite like the content. It's just just "ten more levels of the same stuff". It's "any bozo can cast fireball but when I do it, it's world-changing".

Having monsters do unusual things is really, really refreshing. And walking into an an encounter that the DM is told "if your PCs try this, they will likely die" (you know who she is) and barely surviving to pulling off a draw... that was absolutely, positive epic. Legendary cool. So what if her CR was something like 10 over APL and there were only three PCs and a Leadership cohort instead of four? It was nail-biting epic fun, and it was awesome to learn afterward how mathematically against us it was, CR-wise.

I won't be including or expecting player-side mythic content all the time, or necessarily regularly, but I very much include the material in my toolbox. In fact, the Runelords game I've been running for three years is due to wrap up in the next month or two, and the big K will be getting some mythic ranks to make things "fair". Heh.

Anyway, consider this a strong vote of support for some mythic content existing in the future, even if it's just the odd adventure here or there granting a couple mythic tiers.

I feel about it like dessert. It's very likely the best-tasking part of a meal. It's mouth-awesome. But you wouldn't want a full meal made out of chocolate fudge.

So hey, an AP every three years or so (one in six) would be cool, to tell those special* stories. Or a module once a year maybe.

*My PC (Dreamscarred psion) has mythic assimilate, which allows you to absorb the memories of a creature you slay with it. He used that to finish off the BBEG from the second-last book. So. Guess who's used that ability to take ownership of the abyssal realm said BBEG used to rule? Yeah. Me, baby, me! THAT's a story that needs mythic to feel plausible.


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Brother Fen wrote:
That's what has made me a fan of the work that Legendary Games is doing with all of their mythic material. They've picked up the ball and run a long way with it.

Good point. Those hardcovers that arrived here Monday are a good sign that I'm willing to plop down good money for more mythic content.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Anguish wrote:
Well, you've been in the business long enough to recognize that far, far more people go out of their way to complain about things than to compliment things.

This is certainly true. And in fact one doesn't have to be in the biz long at all to recognize this. I've been doing this for over a quarter of my life now, though, and that, alas, is long enough for the constant stream of this unfortunate fact of human personality to have built up enough momentum that it's cumulative effect is enough to finally really depress me. I know that in theory, for every one who complains there are ten who remain silent and enjoy... but that theory alone can't help to maintain my passion to continue making games, unfortunately.

That all said, thanks for the well-reasoned and helpful feedback! :-)


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I really like Mythic. Enough to include it in my Homebrew Game here on the forum.

I haven't dabbled in it too much, thanks to the whole 'forum games run a little slow' thing, but the one Mythic Rank my players have gotten so far hasn't shattered either time or space. In fairness, they were already pretty horribly broken to start with, though. The bad guys have had to be a little nastier to keep up.

I would love to see what James, and other Paizo folk, would tweek to reduce some of the issues with Mythic, but so far, so good.

But then, I'd also quite like a 7th part to the Carrion Crown where the minions of the Whispering Tyrant come for vengeance, so...


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James Jacobs wrote:
I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... {. . .}

If you do this simultaneously with making the AP a 7 parter (in the same year with a 5 parter), this just might get you to level 20 (or at least close to it).

The flip side of this coin, of course, would be the 5 part AP with the normal set of accessory content, something that ends up at lower levels than normal (maybe even within PFS range), like Council of Thieves(*) but this time on purpose. (If it is released just a handful of years after Hell's Rebels/Hell's Vengeance, you might want to set it somewhere else, although this isn't an absolute requirement.) The people who like the lower-mid level play would be happy with the 5 parter and at least tolerate the 7 parter, while the people who like the higher level play would be happy with the 7 parter and tolerate the 5 parter, especially if in both cases they knew ahead of time that the schedule was returning to the regular 6 part programming the year after, and with the variety provided, a decent number of people might end up liking both, even if they were initially inclined to like just one or the other.

(*)By the way, having followed through a PbP of Council of Thieves, and in fact being the only one so far that I have seen ran to completion, I actually think this AP is awesome, even though it has gotten some bad reviews on these boards (although still sometimes marked as a candidate for an Anniversary Edition). Admittedly, this PbP had a string of really good GMs to help make it cool, but they must have had something good to work with.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber

I didn't think I needed to say it again, but I'm a big fan of Mythic. ^_^


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
James Jacobs wrote:
You've made your point on this topic a hundred times over already.

Well, I'll look forward to seeing if it made an impact the next time a mythic AP gets released.


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I like the general idea of mythic but i also believe that (at least for the PCs part of the mythic) it really needs to be revised, i haven't read the "house rule suggestions" for mythic that Legendary Games (along with others) has put out in their mythic mania so i don't know if most of the job is already done.

cibet44 wrote:

I think a crux of getting to high levels in a 6-part AP is partially due to the exponential increase in XPs to get to those high levels. I never understood why PF chose to do this. It seems like it should take less XPs to get from say 15-20 level then it does to get from 1-10 level.

Once a party is say 15th level they should essentially have one epic "event" that moves them to 16th and so on. High level PCs should abandon adding up XPs and just focus on successfully completing "events" to gain a levels. So the last book of an AP can be a series of 5 "events" that move the party to 16,17,18,19,20 levels.

These events can be things like:

- Defeating a Mythic Monster (Mythic abilities should never apply to PCs, just abandon that concept completely. Encounter a Mythic Monster, defeat it, level up. Im sure this type of battle can last for "real time" hours and "in game" days in the hands of a prepared GM as the monster retreats, recovers, hunts down the group again and so on. In fact, Mythic monsters shouldn't even have XP values they should just give a level and be very very rare and almost unstoppable.)
- Travel out of the solar system to a distant location (once at this location the PCs can have some encounters but the act of getting there means a level. The PCs could have to navigate a series of tasks and/or encounters to do this but the XPs really don't matter for these things. All that matters is setting foot on Planet X.)
- Destroy an entire evil (or good) location (this can be a city, stronghold, island, planet,demi-plane, whatever. The PCs must use their abilities to utterly remove it from existence. Once this is done: gain a level. The defenders of this location may put up a fight of course but those XPs don't matter and you probably wouldn't even do normal combat for them.)

Granted this is all a bit of a departure from the existing model but my larger point is XP calculation at high levels should be removed or drastically shortened. I don't understand why the XP gaps between higher levels...

That's part of what i like to call the "XP problem", i think that the APs would be a lot better if XP isn't used at all. That way APs could have more freedom with the encounter design which means a lot of things like not putting padding "filler" encounters in order to have PCs reach the level they need in order to face the real encounters that make sense and add to the adventure or make the encounters how they need to be in order to make a better game and adventure without worrying about the PCs getting too much XP, and of course a lot of other good things.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Anguish wrote:
But you wouldn't want a full meal made out of chocolate fudge.

Hmmmm....

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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UnArcaneElection wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
I suspect one way we COULD do a 1st to 20th adventure would be to only do one support article in each of the adventure installments, thus gaining 6 pages per adventure. It might also require extensive moves like removing the fiction or going under the minimum of 4 monsters per volume... {. . .}

If you do this simultaneously with making the AP a 7 parter (in the same year with a 5 parter), this just might get you to level 20 (or at least close to it).

A seven part AP is already something I've explained over and over as something that we will likely never ever do, due to the way scheduling things out works, the fact that a 5 part AP would disappoint more folks than it would delight, and more. Expanding every adventure will already make it the hardest AP I've ever developed, and adding a 7th to that is like blowing air into a balloon when you KNOW that one more breath will pop it.


Have you considered perhaps an adventure path that starts with the assumption that the party has completed some prior adventure path (not a specific one, just one that gains the party some degree of fame) or are already seekers? That would give you a good way to develop a 6 book AP that starts at level 13 or so and advances to 20. Considering the fame or notoriety that a party will have gathered from completing any of the established APs or completing a Seeker arc, that could be a good lead in to a higher level more global or extraplanar AP. Obviously many people embarking on that AP would be creating new characters at level 13 (or whatever the starting level is), however an article detailing general guidelines and restrictions for rolling up characters past level 1 could be very useful. I'll admit that I tend not to be a huge fan of high level play, especially jumping in at high level, but with a good set of articles to help flesh out backgrounds and sane build limits I could see giving it a try. Besides... variety is the spice of life right?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
DebugAMP wrote:
Have you considered perhaps an adventure path that starts with the assumption that the party has completed some prior adventure path (not a specific one, just one that gains the party some degree of fame) or are already seekers? That would give you a good way to develop a 6 book AP that starts at level 13 or so and advances to 20. Considering the fame or notoriety that a party will have gathered from completing any of the established APs or completing a Seeker arc, that could be a good lead in to a higher level more global or extraplanar AP. Obviously many people embarking on that AP would be creating new characters at level 13 (or whatever the starting level is), however an article detailing general guidelines and restrictions for rolling up characters past level 1 could be very useful. I'll admit that I tend not to be a huge fan of high level play, especially jumping in at high level, but with a good set of articles to help flesh out backgrounds and sane build limits I could see giving it a try. Besides... variety is the spice of life right?

High level adventures sell far worse than lower level ones.

Plus completing an AP takes such a long time, making a generic sequel AP that isn't playable until you finish one first would make that a niche of a niche.

Shadow Lodge

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That said, they have done that. Shattered Star assumes that Rise of the Runelords, Curse of the Crimson Throne, and Second Darkness have all occurred in the version of Golarion it's being played in.

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