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My giant chameleon companion has +20 to climb and can move on ceilings without a check (taking 10 under any conditions). In a room 25' high it could move on the ceiling and still reach medium opponents on the ground with a tongue attack (15' reach plus 10' creature height).
So let's say it snags someone by making a tongue attack and then succeeding on the grab CMB. That is supposed to bring the opponent to an adjacent open space. How about one of the nearby ceiling spaces? Is this legal?
To carry it further, then release the grapple as a free action. Shouldn't that drop the creature 20' and leave them prone on the ground after falling? And allow the chameleon AoO as it falls out of a threatened square/cube (5' reach with bite)?
Furthermore, with combat reflexes, could it make three AoO: one when leaving the cube at the ceiling, one when leaving the cube 5' down and one more when leaving the cube 10' down (before it falls out of reach of the bite)?
Seems a bit crazy, but would RAW allow this? A successful touch attack and combat maneuver opening up 3 bite attacks plus 2d6 falling damage?
To stretch it even further, how about boosted DEX for more AoO? When the opponent falls out of reach for the bite, snag him again with the tongue and pull him up for another set of chomps. The ultimate in playing with your food, with the opponent going up and down like a yo-yo until you run out of AoO and let him fall to the ground.
My gut feel would be that a successful bite attack would slow the fall and reduce the falling damage by the amount due to the distance fallen to that point. And possibly that lifting the opponent vertically would allow an attempt to escape the grapple, much like moving an opponent into a hazardous location does with a maintained grapple.
The opponent weight probably limits the ability to perform this maneuver more than the usual size limit (equal or smaller size category). If it is sufficient to push the chameleon beyond a light load, then a climb check penalty applies and the chameleon would no longer be able to move on the ceiling by taking 10. With STR 19, the light load limit is 350 lbs, which would probably limit this to medium or smaller opponents (or possibly none if already carrying a rider).
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So let's say it snags someone by making a tongue attack and then succeeding on the grab CMB. That is supposed to bring the opponent to an adjacent open space. How about one of the nearby ceiling spaces? Is this legal?
Definitely.
Although every GM I have known assumes this means you must move it to the nearest adjacent space on the line between where it started and where you are, only being able to choose another space if the correct one is occupied. In other words, if your chameleon pulls a guy up, he's going to end up adjacent and BELOW the chameleon rather than all the way up to the ceiling adjacent to it (the chameleon's tongue pulls him up but doesn't "lift" him the rest of the way up to the ceiling) - but that's RAI, not RAW, so check with your GM.
To carry it further, then release the grapple as a free action. Shouldn't that drop the creature 20' and leave them prone on the ground after falling? And allow the chameleon AoO as it falls out of a threatened square/cube (5' reach with bite)?
Or 15' (see above). Prone either way, but it might be only 1d6 falling damage.
As for the AoO, I don't think so but there have been lots of discussions on these forums and nobody has resolved anything. My take is that the AoO rules describe ACTIONS that provoke. One such ACTION is moving. But accidental movement is not an ACTION so it doesn't provoke (see Bullrush, Drag, and Reposition as examples). Other GMs disagree. So ask your GM if it provokes.
Furthermore, with combat reflexes, could it make three AoO: one when leaving the cube at the ceiling, one when leaving the cube 5' down and one more when leaving the cube 10' down (before it falls out of reach of the bite)?
Absolutely not. See the bolded part:
Combat Reflexes and Additional Attacks of Opportunity
If you have the Combat Reflexes feat, you can add your Dexterity modifier to the number of attacks of opportunity you can make in a round. This feat does not let you make more than one attack for a given opportunity, but if the same opponent provokes two attacks of opportunity from you, you could make two separate attacks of opportunity (since each one represents a different opportunity). Moving out of more than one square threatened by the same opponent in the same round doesn't count as more than one opportunity for that opponent. All these attacks are at your full normal attack bonus.
Seems a bit crazy, but would RAW allow this? A successful touch attack and combat maneuver opening up 3 bite attacks plus 2d6 falling damage?
No, it wouldn't.
Seems crazy because it is (according to RAW).
For sure, RAW lets you attack, grab, and pull the guy up (probably with a free chance to break the grapple, see below). And it lets you drop him for some falling damage (probably only 1d6, see above) and Prone.
That's it.
Attacks of Opportunity are probably not included (up to your GM, see above) but if they are, RAW clearly only allows one.
To stretch it even further, how about boosted DEX for more AoO? When the opponent falls out of reach for the bite, snag him again with the tongue and pull him up for another set of chomps. The ultimate in playing with your food, with the opponent going up and down like a yo-yo until you run out of AoO and let him fall to the ground.
You get one AoO (at most, maybe not even that, see above). If you hit him with your tongue, you could grab and pull him back up, then drop him again, and you might even get one more AoO if your GM allows since it's a new drop and new movement, but this does no damage and only wastes your AoOs. I would suggest either bite him for damage and then let him fall, or skip the AoO (especially if you only have one left) so that you can grab him when he stands up on his turn (and haul him up and drop him again, leaving him prone with half of his turn wasted).
My gut feel would be that a successful bite attack would slow the fall and reduce the falling damage by the amount due to the distance fallen to that point.
No rules for this, so your bite does nothing to his fall.
Besides which, you bite him in the first square, technically before he leaves it, so AFTER the bite he falls the whole distance that he would have fallen even without biting him.
And possibly that lifting the opponent vertically would allow an attempt to escape the grapple, much like moving an opponent into a hazardous location does with a maintained grapple.
I would agree; the Grapple rules support this - you cannot move him into danger.
But, this is also open to GM interpretation since the actual Grapple rule only invokes this limitation when you MAINTAIN the grapple and choose to MOVE the opponent; the part of the rules that say you automatically move a non-adjacent creature to an adjacent space applies to the initial grapple attempt and has no such limitation about dangerous squares. Me, I would extrapolate the former into the latter and give the victim an extra (free) attempt to escape with the +4 bonus as described.
The opponent weight probably limits the ability to perform this maneuver more than the usual size limit (equal or smaller size category). If it is sufficient to push the chameleon beyond a light load, then a climb check penalty applies and the chameleon would no longer be able to move on the ceiling by taking 10. With STR 19, the light load limit is 350 lbs, which would probably limit this to medium or smaller opponents (or possibly none if already carrying a rider).
This may be true. But I'm sure the chameleon can lift more than 350 pounds at the risk of having to make that climb check. Arbitrarily limiting it to medium or smaller is less realistic but far easier to adjudicate in the middle of combat so I think it's a good way to handle it.
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Thanks. I missed the bold bit about it being the same opportunity, which makes sense. The straight line limtation, if imposed, limits the usefulness of the tactic significantly if you want to position for a party flank. I will look at the other maneuvers to see what they imply about unintentional movement. Footnote for feather fall suggests falling provokes if it moves you out of a threatened space.
Hey, you changed your name. And your face!
The straight line limtation, if imposed, limits the usefulness of the tactic significantly if you want to position for a party flank.
As I said, it's not specified in the RAW, so talk it over with your GM.
If I were that GM, I would assume that a chameleon could PULL with its tongue but not LIFT with its tongue, so straight line to the mouth (pull) is fine but lifting the victim to some different area that isn't the mount would not be possible. But I might make very specific exceptions for very light creatures (Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny).
Then again, this critter has an INT of 2, right? If you can't find a way to get its INT up into human ranges then I don't think you could ever teach a reptile to do something like this (lifting, repositioning, dropping, re-catching, lifting and dropping again, even waiting to make it's AoO later when an enemy stands up from prone - all without eating it's prey), not when it has a yummy snack on its tongue It's food is right there and you want this practically unintelligent reptile to NOT eat it? Hell, I don't even have the patience to let a Tic Tac melt on my tongue before I bite it...
Footnote for feather fall suggests falling provokes if it moves you out of a threatened space.
Which footnote is that?
I have the SRD link here and the PRD link here and they're both identical with no footnote.
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Giant Chameleon CompanionsStarting Statistics: Size Medium; Speed 30 ft., climb 30 ft.; Attack bite (1d6); Ability Scores Str 12, Dex 14, Con 14, Int 2, Wis 11, Cha 7; Special Qualities +10 Stealth when still, low-light vision.
4th-Level Advancement: Size Large; Speed 40 ft., climb 40 ft.; AC +2 natural armor; Attack bite (1d8); Ability Scores Str +4, Dex –2, Con +2; Special Attacks pull (tongue, 5 ft.), tongue.
Pull (Ex) A creature with this ability can choose to make a free combat maneuver check with a successful attack. If successful, this check pulls a creature closer. The distance pulled is set by this ability. The type of attack that causes the pull and the distance pulled are included in the creature's description. This ability only works on creatures of a size equal to or smaller than the pulling creature. Creatures pulled in this way do not provoke attacks of opportunity and stop if the pull would move them into a solid object or creature.
The Chameleon companion tongue has pull, not grapple. So it move the target only 5'.
Furthermore, to rise the target into the air I would require the chameleon to be able to lift it, i.e. the carrying capacity of the chameleon would matter.
Lifting and Dragging: A character can lift as much as his maximum load over his head. A character's maximum load is the highest amount of weight listed for a character's Strength in the heavy load column of Table: Carrying Capacity.
With a large chameleon being limited to medium creatures and it being a quadruped probably it will never be a problem, but the limit still exist.
AFAIK the Giant Chameleon Companions never get the grab ability of the standard monster.
Interesting find about the Pull. I took the OP for granted that it had Grapple.
Not having grapple kills the whole idea entirely, I'm sure, especially since the Pull takes several rounds to achieve and clearly states it does not provoke.
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The loss of the grab ability generate another problem:
Performing a Combat Maneuver: When performing a combat maneuver, you must use an action appropriate to the maneuver you are attempting to perform. While many combat maneuvers can be performed as part of an attack action, full-attack action, or attack of opportunity (in place of a melee attack), others require a specific action. Unless otherwise noted, performing a combat maneuver provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of the maneuver. If you are hit by the target, you take the damage normally and apply that amount as a penalty to the attack roll to perform the maneuver. If your target is immobilized, unconscious, or otherwise incapacitated, your maneuver automatically succeeds (treat as if you rolled a natural 20 on the attack roll). If your target is stunned, you receive a +4 bonus on your attack roll to perform a combat maneuver against it.
The Pull ability don't say that it don't provoke and it is a combat maneuver. With the grab ability you first grabbed the target, and that made grappled and unable to make AoO, now you use directly the pull maneuver, and it provoke. (note that you need to have reach to react)
I will rule that the pull ability don't provoke, but that is a houserule.
I'm not even sure you need reach. The dang thing's tongue is in your space for cryin' out loud, as well as in one adjacent space too. Just hit the tongue, no reach needed.
I'm not sure there are rules for this though.
But I dread telling a player they can't hit a long slimy tongue that latched onto their body and is dragging them toward a mouth full of teeth. What do I say, "Sorry, your sword is too short to reach the tongue that is attached to you, you have to wait until you can hit the mouth full of teeth."?
That'll go over swell...
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Wait, did I say "tongue"?
I forgot, this is an RPG that has rouges in it, so I should have said, "tounge" instead.
My bad...
(sorry, couldn't resist a little tounge in cheek...)
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I'm not even sure you need reach. The dang thing's tongue is in your space for cryin' out loud, as well as in one adjacent space too. Just hit the tongue, no reach needed.
I'm not sure there are rules for this though.
But I dread telling a player they can't hit a long slimy tongue that latched onto their body and is dragging them toward a mouth full of teeth. What do I say, "Sorry, your sword is too short to reach the tongue that is attached to you, you have to wait until you can hit the mouth full of teeth."?
That'll go over swell...
I know, but,this was pointed out to me after one of my first posts in this forum:
Strike Back (Combat)
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
and this:
Threatened Squares: You threaten all squares into which you can make a melee attack, even when it is not your turn. Generally, that means everything in all squares adjacent to your space (including diagonally). An enemy that takes certain actions while in a threatened square provokes an attack of opportunity from you. If you're unarmed, you don't normally threaten any squares and thus can't make attacks of opportunity.Reach Weapons: Most creatures of Medium or smaller size have a reach of only 5 feet. This means that they can make melee attacks only against creatures up to 5 feet (1 square) away. However, Small and Medium creatures wielding reach weapons threaten more squares than a typical creature. In addition, most creatures larger than Medium have a natural reach of 10 feet or more.
RAW you can't attack a limb or a weapon unless there is a specific rule allowing that.
The guy with a longspear pocking you through a arrowslit and a 5' tick wall?
He and is spear are invulnerable to your non reach weapon, even if the spear is attacking you.
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Although the companion entry does not explicitly detail the "tongue" special attack, it is implied in the pull special ability which lists the type of attack that causes the pull (and it is named after that as a special ability). If you look at the base monster you will see that tongue is a no damage attack, which allows a free grab and/or pull attempt in this case: base creature description of tongue attack
Grab is essentially improved (not greater) grapple, so moving the opponent to an adjacent space should not provoke.
The footnote I refer to is at the bottom of the AoO table in the combat section. It is noted in several places, including under the immediate action for casting feather fall.
1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
As grab and pull are both free actions that can be initiated after a successful tongue attack, I interpret a pull attempt as a sort of consolation prize for a missed grab. With pull, the opponent doesn't end up with the grappled condition, and if it was initially 15' away a 5' pull doesn't get it within range of the bite attack for AoO. If the creature did something else to provoke and you had combat reflexes, I suppose you could repeat the tongue attack and grab/pull attempts and get it adjacent to you with the second sequence.
Other than to save space, I'm not sure why the tongue attack is not explicitly listed in the companion stat block. As it apparently has one it can use to initiate a pull attempt, the logical conclusion is that it works just like the tongue attack of the base creature (15' reach alternate to biting, which does no damage but allows grab and/or pull). The only place I've found rules associated with a tongue attack is in monster listings. Only a few monsters have it, so it isn't listed in universal monster rules.
On the question of intelligence, this is a paladin mount, so it gets a 6 INT regardless of companion base INT. In all abilities except CHA, it actually has better scores than the paladin.
Initially I was using it with improved overrun, but with a new level I added combat reflexes so I am trying to figure out what it can do with its tongue attacks and the implied reach. The only way I could come up with for putting opponents on the ground before charging over some on its turn was to drop them - but if it is on the ceiling it probably won't find anything up there it can overrun.
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What I'd really like would be to find a game mechanic that allows the chameleon to trip creatures at range with its tongue when they provoke. It doesn't have improved trip, but maybe that doesn't matter if the tongue works like a reach weapon and most opponents can't attack it directly (CM to trip normally provokes).
I suppose a called shot to pull a leg out from under an opponent would be the closest existing mechanic. A tongue attack at a large body part at range would be -4 to hit, but then a successful pull maneuver might have the same effect as a trip. But this is for a PFS character, so I don't think the called shot rules from Ultimate Combat are allowed.
Also INT 6 is not sufficient to get the combat expertise prerequisite for improved trip or improved reposition. So the comment about instinctively just pulling things straight to its mouth makes some sense, unless the paladin commands the lizard to let go or perform some other maneuver or trick that it is capable of doing or trying.
Just a heads up on the climbing on the ceiling part. The ceiling needs to be rough and have handholds for your chameleon to climb on it. So he's good to ceiling climb in a cave or rough tunnel but can't climb on the ceiling of any typical interior room (smooth). You would need to have spider climb or have a Giant Geko in order to do that.
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Regarding the comment about getting an AoO against pull, I would say no - as Diego mentioned you need a special ability to target reach weapons and limbs. If grab after a successful tongue attack does not provoke, there is no reason why pull should. Plus pull doesn't maintain a hold after it is completed (like a grab does) so it is all over very quickly.
Unrelated to the rules discussion, have you ever seen slow motion footage of a chameleon or frog catching bugs with its tongue? Granted it isn't the same mechanically (no grapple, creature pulled all the way into mouth in one action) but you rarely see the bug getting enough time to react. If they get away at all, it is usually due to poor aim on the original tongue attack (complete miss or glancing blow).
If the sticky tongue hits a creature, it is either wrapped up and brought towards the mouth, or at least it gets pulled a little closer before the tongue pulls free. It would need greater size or a good CMD to resist both the grab and the pull after being hit by the tongue.
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Climb DC 30 is for "an overhang or ceiling with handholds only".
It doesn't say it has to be rough - just has to have handholds and not be "perfectly smooth". I would say most interior rooms do not have ceilings that qualify as perfectly smooth, but most also aren't over 10' high so the ceiling offers no further benefit versus moving on the floor or walls. With large size an 15' tongue attack, you could reach the center of a room 50' across while positioned on the wall. You could also move upside down in any 5-10' wide hallway, bracing against the walls, no matter how smooth the ceiling is.
Good Dwarven stonework or magical construction could make a perfectly smooth ceiling, but most builders and tunnelers wouldn't put forth the effort to polish the ceiling. As long as it provides the desired clearance (or in the case of buildings, support for what's above it) that is probably all anyone cared about. Unless something indicates otherwise, a ceiling should have as many handholds as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
If your campaign has a thriving sheetrock industry, I suppose the argument for smooth interior ceilings might apply; otherwise wood rafters/timbers or angled/arched stone blocks would be more common for construction.
Any creature with a natural climb speed and +20 or more to climb checks can move on ceilings without making a check (by taking 10), unless the surface is also perfectly smooth or slippery. Even Spider Climb lists a check modifier, so there are cases where even a gecko or someone climbing via magic might have to make a check. The only possible climb with a higher DC is a slippery ceiling (you need +25 to make that taking 10, or a good roll if your modifier is less).
The mount took skill focus climb just to allow the possibility of ceiling movement. His modifier for climb checks rivals that of any other natural climber and he can move on virtually any surface that can support his weight. Giant chameleons are lightweight for their size, but carrying capacity does matter. Climb checks do have modifiers for medium (-3) and heavy (-6) loads, which could require a check if trying to move upside down so encumbered. Fortunately he gets the quadruped mount carrying capacity multiplier and is still has only a light load with a rider. But a little more weight from an opponent grabbed and dangling would require a climb check to stay on the ceiling, because taking 10 would no longer suffice to to make DC 30 after the penalty.
Some structures (thatched roofs come to mind) might not support the weight, but natural stone ceilings and most stone and wood structures should support the chameleon and anything it can carry without penalty.
For climbing, "perfectly smooth" does not mean "smooth as mirrored glass". It does not require good dwarven stonework, magical construction, polish or sheetrock.
It simply means there is nothing to hold onto. A simple plaster and lathe ceiling, or stucco, or wood planks, gives nothing to hold onto and counts as "perfectly smooth" (unless there are big gaps between the planks). If you can't put your fingers and toes into cracks, crevices, crannies, holes, whatever, enough to get a grip, then it is "perfectly smooth".
Even a natural slab of rock could easily be "perfectly smooth" enough for this definition unless it has holes like swiss cheese or lots of cracks.
Most structures could conceivably hold his weight, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is something for him to cling to - he doesn't hang from the ceiling with suction cups or with magic; he needs to actually have something for each of his feet to grab onto.
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For climbing, "perfectly smooth" does not mean "smooth as mirrored glass". It does not require good dwarven stonework, magical construction, polish or sheetrock.
It simply means there is nothing to hold onto. A simple plaster and lathe ceiling, or stucco, or wood planks, gives nothing to hold onto and counts as "perfectly smooth" (unless there are big gaps between the planks). If you can't put your fingers and toes into cracks, crevices, crannies, holes, whatever, enough to get a grip, then it is "perfectly smooth".
Even a natural slab of rock could easily be "perfectly smooth" enough for this definition unless it has holes like swiss cheese or lots of cracks.
Most structures could conceivably hold his weight, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is something for him to cling to - he doesn't hang from the ceiling with suction cups or with magic; he needs to actually have something for each of his feet to grab onto.
Do you have a rules source that defines "perfectly smooth" this way? It is a big deal to increase the DC from 20-30 to infinite. Realistically, if the surface imperfections just need to be significant in size compared to the grabbing appendages. Real geckos can move on a typical "flat" ceiling. The bumps need to be larger for an 11' long version, but rafters or stone blocks would do. Also, the bigger the room, the less likely that the ceiling will be a single surface with no exposed beams.
Geckos are a different issue.
Remember, the Climb skill is an everyman skill, not an everygecko skill. The DCs are set based on human expectactions. What a gecko can cling to and what a human can cling to are different.
So to determine the DC of a climbing surface, the (presumably-human) GM evaluates a surface's climbability and sets a DC based on how hard it would be for a human. Everything else must face the SAME DC. So if a human would find it difficult or impossible to cling to a ceiling because there are no handholds for his fingers and toes, then the GM should call that surface "perfectly smooth". If you look at the table in the Climb skill, the very next one up the table is a Ceiling with handholds at DC 30. Next down the list is Perfectly Smooth which therefore must include a ceiling with no handholds. As I said before, not smooth glass, just any ceiling (or wall) with NOTHING to hold onto (by human standards).
Once the GM has set this difficulty, then anything, human or otherwise, might try to use its Climb skill on the surface unless it is Perfectly Smooth. To use the Climb skill with that, you need magic (Spider Climb for example) or something equivalent.
Luckily, geckos have that as a natural ability. It's in their description. Unluckily, a chameleon does not. So unless you cast Spider Climb on your chameleon, it MUST have handholds to cling to. If it does not, then the surface is "perfectly smooth" and cannot be climbed by the chameleon.
Do you have a rules source that defines "perfectly smooth" this way? It is a big deal to increase the DC from 20-30 to infinite. Realistically, if the surface imperfections just need to be significant in size compared to the grabbing appendages. Real geckos can move on a typical "flat" ceiling. The bumps need to be larger for an 11' long version, but rafters or stone blocks would do. Also, the bigger the room, the less likely that the ceiling will be a single surface with no exposed beams.For climbing, "perfectly smooth" does not mean "smooth as mirrored glass". It does not require good dwarven stonework, magical construction, polish or sheetrock.
It simply means there is nothing to hold onto. A simple plaster and lathe ceiling, or stucco, or wood planks, gives nothing to hold onto and counts as "perfectly smooth" (unless there are big gaps between the planks). If you can't put your fingers and toes into cracks, crevices, crannies, holes, whatever, enough to get a grip, then it is "perfectly smooth".
Even a natural slab of rock could easily be "perfectly smooth" enough for this definition unless it has holes like swiss cheese or lots of cracks.
Most structures could conceivably hold his weight, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is something for him to cling to - he doesn't hang from the ceiling with suction cups or with magic; he needs to actually have something for each of his feet to grab onto.
Geckos and chameleons climb very differently. IRL Chameleons are grasping climbers were as geckos have an ability to stick to surfaces through the generation of suction and friction.
In game, chameleons have a climb speed and that's it. As such they are required to make climb checks as normal and follow all climb rules. This includes not being able to climb on smooth surfaces. Geckos however have both a climb speed and an ability to function as if under spider climb. This means that they do not need to make a climb check and can climb perfectly smooth surfaces.
Game mechanics mimic real life in this situation. If you want to climb on the ceiling ditch the chameleon and get a gecko.
On the subject of Pull vs. Grab, after reading the SRD on the monster entry and the companion description, I'm quite convinced that the devs' intent was for Pull to replace Grab for the animal companion version. Here's why:
1. You don't need both. Pull is just a crappy version of Grab - no Grappled condition, limited to short distances (in this case, only 5' per round), and no maintaining it from round to round. Anything that has both abilities on the same attack would never choose Pull; it would always Grab.
2. Based on that, I'm convinced the devs did not add a second (and crappy) ability to the chameleon companion.
3. Which only leaves the possibility that the devs replaced the good Grab with the crappy Pull for some reason, presumably an attempt at balance. In support of this, note that there are other animal companions that were nerfed as a companion to bring them into balance while giving druids (etc.) more options, so there is precedent for balance-by-nerf being applied to companion versions of existing monsters.
In conclusion, I do not think the devs intend for a chameleon companion to have a Grab ability with its tongue.
However, this might be a good FAQ idea. As well as Rossi's question about whether the Pull ability is intended to provoke or not (two separate FAQ candidates here).
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Thanks for all the thoughts on this. I think a few things will come down to GM discretion regardless.
Note that the regular Giant Chameleon has both bite or tongue listed in its attack block, and tongue gives free grab attempt. It also has tongue and pull listed in its special abilities. So it gets both grab and pull options if it hits with the tongue. The companion attack block doesn't mention tongue, but the special abilities list pull and tongue just like the the base creature, and tongue special ability is not in the universal monster rules so the only place to look for it is the base creature.
Ditching the chameleon for the gecko is not an option, and this is a PFS character using a boon to open up the option for that specific species of mount. Plus they have grown fond of each other and the chameleon is superior in many other aspects. As spider climb mentions a climb check bonus, I also have to believe there are conditions (albeit few) where an expert or magical climber may have to make a check. The gecko has +21 so it can climb on ceilings by taking 10, but not on a slippery ceiling. I interpret the first sentence of the expert climber ability as fluff; the second sentence says in effect it functions as spider climb - which says nothing about being able to climb perfectly smooth surfaces.
The key for DC 30 ceiling climb is definitely the presence of handholds suitable for a creature of its size. Normal insects, spiders and small lizards don't need much (typical textured ceiling is plenty if they have +20 on the check). Bigger creatures would need bumps, fixtures or protrusions large enough to grasp and sturdy enough to support their weight. For a large creature you only need about 4 such handholds in any 10x10 area to allow movement across it. A beam every 10' or numerous mortar cracks between bricks or slats (or even ceiling lamps or window frames) would give enough to hold onto. IMO perfectly smooth means some sort of seamless surface finish. I don't think they'd list a 30 DC for ceilings if the thinking was that most ceilings are perfectly smooth. Perfectly smooth just gives GMs and designers some options to foil climbers with traps which are hard to escape without magic or other assistance.
RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32
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For climbing, "perfectly smooth" does not mean "smooth as mirrored glass". It does not require good dwarven stonework, magical construction, polish or sheetrock.
It simply means there is nothing to hold onto. A simple plaster and lathe ceiling, or stucco, or wood planks, gives nothing to hold onto and counts as "perfectly smooth" (unless there are big gaps between the planks). If you can't put your fingers and toes into cracks, crevices, crannies, holes, whatever, enough to get a grip, then it is "perfectly smooth".
Even a natural slab of rock could easily be "perfectly smooth" enough for this definition unless it has holes like swiss cheese or lots of cracks.
Most structures could conceivably hold his weight, but that doesn't necessarily mean there is something for him to cling to - he doesn't hang from the ceiling with suction cups or with magic; he needs to actually have something for each of his feet to grab onto.
DC 25
A rough surface, such as a natural rock wall or a brick wall.
RAW you can't attack a limb or a weapon unless there is a specific rule allowing that.
The guy with a longspear pocking you through a arrowslit and a 5' tick wall?
He and is spear are invulnerable to your non reach weapon, even if the spear is attacking you.Might be RAW and I have no issue with not being able to reach and attack him. His weapon, particularly on a round in which he attacked me, I do have a hard time buying into RAW or not. It's called Sunder and if I got into that situation I'd be annoyed if not able to do so. And that annoyance would skyrocket if not allowed to do so as a Ready Action to Sunder when he did try to poke me.
Yeah, but that's exactly what the combat feat quoted in the same post you are quoting is for:
You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
Since there exists a specific feat that allows this behavior we must conclude that you cannot otherwise do so. Since Sunder is used "in place of a melee attack," the Strike Back feat also allows you to ready an action to sunder the weapon of an enemy attacking you in melee but who is outside of your reach.
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10 very rough wall
15 very rough natural rock surface
20 typical (rough) dungeon wall
25 rough natural rock surface
30 (typical) ceiling
NA perfectly smooth vertical or inverted surface
Above is an abbreviated version of the climb skill DC table, which highlights the progression from very rough surfaces to smooth ones. (Text in parentheses is mine.)
This suggests that natural rock surfaces have less handholds and footholds than manufactured surfaces, with the exception of ceilings which in either case don't have anything a humanoid can really use as a foothold in the normal sense.
Nothing to rest your weight upon when you are upside down, so you must be able to hang on with your hands or other appendages.
Whether the ceiling is higher DC because it is more smooth or because it has nothing you can rest your weight upon (or probably both in comparison to a dungeon wall) - either way the DC is 30.
So whether the ceiling is natural or manufactured it would have to be unusually or unnaturally smooth (or slippery) to have a climb DC higher than 30.
Thus my interpretation that a creature with a natural climb speed (which can take 10 on any climb checks) and a +20 climb check modifier can climb on typical ceilings without any need for a climb check.
Of course, "slippery" leaves a lot of room for GM discretion, even if smoothness isn't in question. If a GM wants to disallow ceiling movement, they could invoke humid conditions or morning dew and you'd have to stay on walls to avoid a check.
Which is why I'll probably put additional skill ranks in climb as the companion advances. Combined with DEX increases, +25 is reachable.
To carry it further, then release the grapple as a free action. Shouldn't that drop the creature 20' and leave them prone on the ground after falling? And allow the chameleon AoO as it falls out of a threatened square/cube (5' reach with bite)?
SRD:
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
So, at 20' up, if they make the acrobatics check, they would only take 1d6 non-lethal and not be prone.
Also, falling does not provoke an AoO. SRD
/cevah
To carry it further, then release the grapple as a free action. Shouldn't that drop the creature 20' and leave them prone on the ground after falling? And allow the chameleon AoO as it falls out of a threatened square/cube (5' reach with bite)?SRD:
Creatures that fall take 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet fallen, to a maximum of 20d6. Creatures that take lethal damage from a fall land in a prone position.
If a character deliberately jumps instead of merely slipping or falling, the damage is the same but the first 1d6 is nonlethal damage. A DC 15 Acrobatics check allows the character to avoid any damage from the first 10 feet fallen and converts any damage from the second 10 feet to nonlethal damage. Thus, a character who slips from a ledge 30 feet up takes 3d6 damage. If the same character deliberately jumps, he takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 2d6 points of lethal damage. And if the character leaps down with a successful Acrobatics check, he takes only 1d6 points of nonlethal damage and 1d6 points of lethal damage from the plunge.
So, at 20' up, if they make the acrobatics check, they would only take 1d6 non-lethal and not be prone.
Also, falling does not provoke an AoO. SRD
/cevah
You can only attempt that acrobatics check if you jump down. Falling, no acrobatics check.
And when people are debating in the rules forum, providing a link to the ENTIRE SECTION of rules they are debating without any kind of quote or reference or even reason that you're linking the rule we have already read a dozen times during the debate is, well, less than useless.
So, care to elaborate on what part of the entire AoO section of the Combat page says that falling doesn't provoke? Because half of the people who read that section you linked will claim that this is the exact section of rules that proves that falling provokes.
Yeah, but that's exactly what the combat feat quoted in the same post you are quoting is for:
Since there exists a specific feat that allows this behavior we must conclude that you cannot otherwise do so. Since Sunder is used "in place of a melee attack," the Strike Back feat also allows you to ready an action to sunder the weapon of an enemy attacking you in melee but who is outside of your reach.You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.
This is very different.
In the blink of an eye, the enemy 10' away from you slashes you with his glaive. Everyone else in your shoes just has to stand there and take it. But with this feat, you can actually hit that foe without leaving your square, even if you don't have reach. How? I'm not sure. Magic? Maybe he was an idiot and leaned 5' closer to you while he was attacking with his reach weapon. Maybe this feat gives you 1 second of the Long Arms spell just long enough to hit the guy 10' away. Who knows. But if you have this feat, you can stab that guy in the face with a dagger. Nobody else can.
That is very very different from a chameleon, toad, roper, giant squid, etc., who has stuck part of its body into your square, grabbed you, and left that part of itself attached to you in your square. Here you are, in combat, attacking an enemy's appendage that it less than 1 millimeter away from your body. There is no "blink of an eye" because that creature didn't hit you and withdraw its weapon back out of your reach. It left it there, a living, bleeding part of its own anatomy right there in your square.
A child could attack that.
Very different.
Disagree? The feat even says attack their weapons or limbs "as they come at you". It says nothing about "as they stay in your square for a whole 6 seconds after hitting you."
Note for clarity, I'm not talking about interrupting the chameleon's attack, readying to hit the chameleon before it strikes with its tongue from 20' away, hitting the chameleon in the face, making an AoO during its attack - none of that. I'm simply talking about AFTER it attacks and grabs (regular chameleon, not the nerfed companion chameleon), and then it ends its turn, and now no matter where that chameleon's face is, no matter how far away, its tongue that grabbed you is in your space and you should be able to hit that ON YOUR TURN with no reach required.
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Cevah, where in SRD/PRD do you see that falling doesn't provoke? I see that dropping to the floor (presumably in your square) doesn't provoke, but moving out of a threatened square/cube should.
I think there may be good reasons why it shouldn't provoke, but I don't see them in the RAW.
I agree with DM_Blake that being released and falling would not allow the acrobatics check of a deliberate jump, per RAW. I could see that being debatable in real life e.g. this, but not in the rules forum.
But to DM_Blake's last post, I don't agree that a successful pull leaves a tongue on the opponent after moving them. A successful grab does, but in that case you are already moved to where you can reach the creature itself and attacking the tongue is of no consequence. Like the reach weapon, the tongue snaps back to the creature's space after performing the pull maneuver. If it had a better hold, you would have been grabbed.
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If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)
So you are never held by a tongue/tentacle/whatever in your square without also being within 5' of the attacker. You can reach the creature that grabbed you (unless you have less than 5' reach) because the maneuver pulls you adjacent.
There is no attack that leaves an appendage in your square and the creature out of reach from your attacks. I guess if you were tiny you would have to break the grapple before you could move into the creature's square to attack it, but for the general case of small and medium PCs you will always be able to reach something you can damage - on your next action after you've been grabbed.
But to DM_Blake's last post, I don't agree that a successful pull leaves a tongue on the opponent after moving them. A successful grab does, but in that case you are already moved to where you can reach the creature itself and attacking the tongue is of no consequence. Like the reach weapon, the tongue snaps back to the creature's space after performing the pull maneuver. If it had a better hold, you would have been grabbed.
I didn't say Pull. I said Grab. I even referenced the real chameleon as opposed to the nerfed companion version.
You may be right that a Pull simply sticks, moves the guy 5', then unsticks. Hard to tell from the description, but that ruling would be consistent with the fact that it DOESN'T grapple or apply the Grappled condition.
If you successfully grapple a creature that is not adjacent to you, move that creature to an adjacent open space (if no space is available, your grapple fails)So you are never held by a tongue/tentacle/whatever in your square without also being within 5' of the attacker. You can reach the creature that grabbed you (unless you have less than 5' reach) because the maneuver pulls you adjacent.
There is no attack that leaves an appendage in your square and the creature out of reach from your attacks. I guess if you were tiny you would have to break the grapple before you could move into the creature's square to attack it, but for the general case of small and medium PCs you will always be able to reach something you can damage - on your next action after you've been grabbed.
That's a valid point. So you wouldn't have to hit the tongue at all, unless you did have a readied action (which would go before the grapple anyway), or maybe allies had readied actions to try to help you (assuming they could predict the attack) in which case they might hit the tongue that's dragging you toward the monster.
But even if it does pull you adjacent, as long as it maintains the grapple (or intends to) I suppose you still have the option of whacking the tongue instead of the scaly head, though I can't think of any rules for it, so it would mysteriously be the same AC.
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to DM_Blake: Yeah, it doesn't give a different AC (I think creatures with swallow whole have internal AC listed) and unless you are using variant rules for called shots, attacking the tongue has the same effect as attacking the body. If someone was grappling you with arms and legs, how often would you think "oh, I'll just cut off his arm" versus "I'll hurt this guy until he lets go"? Never unless the rules indicated a specific advantage to doing anything other than hit point damage.
Severing appendages is popular in film, but the general rules mechanics seem to avoid providing opportunities for this. The game is simpler if all damage is simply hit point damage. And although the appendage acts like a weapon in some respects, sundering rules apply only to items and not to body parts.
But this thread has gotten off into some obscure topics, especially considering how often the initial tactics mentioned would come into play even for the character and mount in question. I think we should put it to rest. While I would like to understand how some of these things are written or intended to work in 3 dimensions, I think most GMs will simply say no if it sounds too complicated.
The responses thus far have given me a good idea of which questions have a clear RAW answer and which have some differences in interpretation. Which will give me a good idea of what to expect from a variety of GMs who may encounter this duo.
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Regarding the comment about getting an AoO against pull, I would say no - as Diego mentioned you need a special ability to target reach weapons and limbs. If grab after a successful tongue attack does not provoke, there is no reason why pull should. Plus pull doesn't maintain a hold after it is completed (like a grab does) so it is all over very quickly.
Unrelated to the rules discussion, have you ever seen slow motion footage of a chameleon or frog catching bugs with its tongue? Granted it isn't the same mechanically (no grapple, creature pulled all the way into mouth in one action) but you rarely see the bug getting enough time to react. If they get away at all, it is usually due to poor aim on the original tongue attack (complete miss or glancing blow).
If the sticky tongue hits a creature, it is either wrapped up and brought towards the mouth, or at least it gets pulled a little closer before the tongue pulls free. It would need greater size or a good CMD to resist both the grab and the pull after being hit by the tongue.
RAW is clear.
Pull is a combat maneuver, there is no text saying that it don't
provoke, all combat maneuver without that text provoke, so pull provoke.
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Geckos are a different issue.
Remember, the Climb skill is an everyman skill, not an everygecko skill. The DCs are set based on human expectactions. What a gecko can cling to and what a human can cling to are different.
So to determine the DC of a climbing surface, the (presumably-human) GM evaluates a surface's climbability and sets a DC based on how hard it would be for a human. Everything else must face the SAME DC. So if a human would find it difficult or impossible to cling to a ceiling because there are no handholds for his fingers and toes, then the GM should call that surface "perfectly smooth". If you look at the table in the Climb skill, the very next one up the table is a Ceiling with handholds at DC 30. Next down the list is Perfectly Smooth which therefore must include a ceiling with no handholds. As I said before, not smooth glass, just any ceiling (or wall) with NOTHING to hold onto (by human standards).
Once the GM has set this difficulty, then anything, human or otherwise, might try to use its Climb skill on the surface unless it is Perfectly Smooth. To use the Climb skill with that, you need magic (Spider Climb for example) or something equivalent.
Luckily, geckos have that as a natural ability. It's in their description. Unluckily, a chameleon does not. So unless you cast Spider Climb on your chameleon, it MUST have handholds to cling to. If it does not, then the surface is "perfectly smooth" and cannot be climbed by the chameleon.
As you already said, RL geckos use suction cups (lamellae actually, but the principle is the same).
Chameleons use claws, so I would allow them to treat a plaster ceiling as rough as it is soft enough that they can dig their claws in the plaster. On the other hand, I would check their wight, as most plaster ceiling can't hold much. If you want to affix something to the ceiling with any weight you should attack it to the underlying support beams. In old stile buildings there is a good chance of exposed support timbers that it will able to use to climb (having lived in a XV century house and working in a XIV century building I know them a bit).Size matters. What can be a rough surface for a medium sized creature can be smooth for a large one, and vice versa (support beams every 2 meters can be too far for a human, convenient for a large creature), but those are GM calls.
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Cevah, where in SRD/PRD do you see that falling doesn't provoke? I see that dropping to the floor (presumably in your square) doesn't provoke, but moving out of a threatened square/cube should.
I think there may be good reasons why it shouldn't provoke, but I don't see them in the RAW.
I agree with DM_Blake that being released and falling would not allow the acrobatics check of a deliberate jump, per RAW. I could see that being debatable in real life e.g. this, but not in the rules forum.
But to DM_Blake's last post, I don't agree that a successful pull leaves a tongue on the opponent after moving them. A successful grab does, but in that case you are already moved to where you can reach the creature itself and attacking the tongue is of no consequence. Like the reach weapon, the tongue snaps back to the creature's space after performing the pull maneuver. If it had a better hold, you would have been grabbed.
1 Regardless of the action, if you move out of a threatened square, you usually provoke an attack of opportunity. This column indicates whether the action itself, not moving, provokes an attack of opportunity.
You move =/= you are moved
So it can read both ways with ease.
Yeah, but that's exactly what the combat feat quoted in the same post you are quoting is for:
Since there exists a specific feat that allows this behavior we must conclude that you cannot otherwise do so. Since Sunder is used "in place of a melee attack," the Strike Back feat also allows you to ready an action to sunder the weapon of an enemy attacking you in melee but who is outside of your reach.You can strike at foes that attack you using their superior reach, by targeting their limbs or weapons as they come at you.
Prerequisite: Base attack bonus +11.
Benefit: You can ready an action to make a melee attack against any foe that attacks you in melee, even if the foe is outside of your reach.This is very different.
In the blink of an eye, the enemy 10' away from you slashes you with his glaive. Everyone else in your shoes just has to stand there and take it. But with this feat, you can actually hit that foe without leaving your square, even if you don't have reach. How? I'm not sure. Magic? Maybe he was an idiot and leaned 5' closer to you while he was attacking with his reach weapon. Maybe this feat gives you 1 second of the Long Arms spell just long enough to hit the guy 10' away. Who knows. But if you have this feat, you can stab that guy in the face with a dagger. Nobody else can.
That is very very different from a chameleon, toad, roper, giant squid, etc., who has stuck part of its body into your square, grabbed you, and left that part of itself attached to you in your square. Here you are, in combat, attacking an enemy's appendage that it less than 1 millimeter away from your body. There is no "blink of an eye" because that creature didn't hit you and withdraw its weapon back out of your reach. It left it there, a living, bleeding part of its own anatomy right there in your square.
A child could attack that.
Very different.
Disagree? The feat even says attack their weapons or limbs "as they come at...
I think you misunderstand me, I was replying to Kayerloth's post, regarding hitting an enemy's reach weapon with a sunder attack.
As for grab, creatures who are successfully grabbed are moved into the adjacent square and gain the grappled condition, so they don't get an AoO either.
To carry it further, then release the grapple as a free action. Shouldn't that drop the creature 20' and leave them prone on the ground after falling? And allow the chameleon AoO as it falls out of a threatened square/cube (5' reach with bite)?SRD:
<snip>So, at 20' up, if they make the acrobatics check, they would only take 1d6 non-lethal and not be prone.
Also, falling does not provoke an AoO. SRD
/cevah
You can only attempt that acrobatics check if you jump down. Falling, no acrobatics check.
And when people are debating in the rules forum, providing a link to the ENTIRE SECTION of rules they are debating without any kind of quote or reference or even reason that you're linking the rule we have already read a dozen times during the debate is, well, less than useless.
So, care to elaborate on what part of the entire AoO section of the Combat page says that falling doesn't provoke? Because half of the people who read that section you linked will claim that this is the exact section of rules that proves that falling provokes.
OK. Have had a lot of experience with jumping, not much with falling. My bad there.
As to linking the section, I pulled the link from the top of the page. There IS no closer link in that part of the page. It takes extra effort to find a closer tag. Many would just link to the page and not even bother to link to a section, so I think you are over reacting a little. The reason you are looking for is the rest of that same line. The first time movement comes up in that section is the correct place.
As others have said before and after my post, it take an action to provoke and falling is not an action unless deliberate.
/cevah
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I thought it might be useful to summarize what I'm taking away from this thread for future adventures.
My interpretation may not agree with all posts here, but I believe it agrees with RAW where they exist (not necessarily what others suggest as RAI) and there are definitely a few situations where there doesn't appear to be a written rule and I have tried to make a reasonable assumption.
I hope that others may find this summary to be useful, although I understand it is a somewhat obscure combat case.
1. The companion has two special attacks, per its listing: pull and tongue (the base creature has these two special attacks also).
2. To use either of the special attacks, it must be able to make the tongue attack, which it not defined in the simplified companion stat block.
3. Tongue is not in the universal monster rules, so you must go to the base creature for a description of how it works.
4. There you find that it is an alternative attack to the creature's bite attack, has a 15' reach (for a large chameleon), does no damage, allows for a free grab without provoking on a successful hit, and if that succeeds the lizard does not gain the grappled condition.
5. A successful grab gives the opponent the grappled condition and moves them to an adjacent square and this movement does not provoke.
6. Pull can also be initiated as a free action after a tongue hit, but it is listed as a combat maneuver and says nothing about not provoking.
Seems a bit odd that grappling and moving 15' with the tongue won't provoke, but a quick 5' tug will. I might argue that it is intended to work the same way, but it isn't explicitly written like that.
7. On a tongue hit you could attempt to grab, and failing that still attempt to pull. Both are free actions allowed as a result.
8. The chameleon could be on a wall or ceiling attempting the tongue attack. As a natural climber it can take 10 on climb checks, and the companion currently has a +20 check modifier. So it could be on a typical ceiling where the climb DC is 30.
9. Perfectly smooth or slippery surfaces could make such climbing either impossible (perfectly smooth) or at least require a check (DC 35 for slippery ceiling not great chances if you need to roll 15+).
10. Both grab and pull are allowed on creatures of equal or smaller size, but the description of these abilities does not explicitly mention anything about movement in 3 dimensions.
11. Carrying capacity does come into play when the movement switches from pull or drag to lift. Maximum pull is 2.5x maximum lift, 5x maximum load (heavy load limit), 7.5x medium load limit and 10x light load limit.
12. A large creature that is light enough for you to pull might also be light enough for you to lift, but depending upon weight and STR there could be a good chance it exceeds your heavy load limit.
13. Check penalties for medium and heavy loads are -3 and -6 respectively. Nothing is listed for loads between max load & max lift because that limits movement to 5' per round and those without a climb speed wouldn't be able to climb a full 5'.
14. Extrapolating, the check penalty might be -9 to -18 for loads between maximum heavy load and max lift (-3 for every light load equivalent). Catching a falling character rules say exceeding your heavy load limit results in an automatic fall.
15. I would suggest that anything that increases your carried load category would require an immediate climb check, so in the case of attacking from the ceiling, you really don't want to lift something that is more than a light load.
16. With a 15' reach and the first diagonal being free, you could attack a creature 15' over and 0-5' down or 10' over and 10' down or 0-5' over and 15' down (measuring between nearest occupied spaces).
17. Because lifting is more work than pulling, I'd suggest that you resolve the horizontal movement first, and only do lifting movement if you can first get the opponent underneath you.
Which basically means you can't do a vertical 5' lift with a pull attack unless you are already in one of the spaces directly above the opponent.
18. With a grab, even though the spaces above the floor may be "open", the lift should cause some increased chance for failure.
I would not make failure automatic (like no space available), but instead treat it like trying to maintain a grapple and move a creature (free attempt to break free at +4 bonus). If they get free you only moved them beneath you.
19. If you do manage to lift them (maintain the grapple) they now move straight up (maximum of 10' if they started 15' below) and you are grappling them directly below your space.
Note that if they started 10' over and 10' down, you can only lift them 5' before they are adjacent, and if they started 15' over there is no lift.
20. If they started 0-5' over and you successfully grab and pull them up 10', you can release as a free action and they will fall, take 1d6 of lethal damage and end up prone.
21. I'm convinced that falling 10' unintentionally does not normally provoke based on two things: a winged creature that takes damage while flying loses 10' of altitude and that movement does not provoke, and dropping prone in your square does not provoke.
22. If you were only able to lift the opponent 5' with an overhead pull or a grab at a creature only 10' lower than you, a release from 5' up might have different results depending upon your GM. Could be no damage, half a d6, or 1d6 nonlethal.
23. I have not seen anything written regarding short falls, but if there is no lethal damage then the opponent would not end up prone. I favor half a d6 - if you roll a 1 then no damage and the opponent is not prone.
24. Creatures do not have a facing. If that applies in 3 dimensions it could save some distance moving into position for such an attack.
If you move to a spot where the floor and wall meet, you might be considered to be on both, and not have to count both perpendicular surfaces when counting movement at the corners.
I believe you are just supposed to count the movement of the center of your space, which doesn't move when you turn.
So overall the tactic isn't as great as it first appeared. It is a long way to go to trip an opponent. In one 40' move action, you need to get over to a wall, up the wall to a ceiling 25-30' above and then over an opponent or within 5' of that. Then you use a standard action and have to hit with your tongue, and following that have to hit with a grab maneuver. All to drop a guy 10' and make him end up prone. You could get about the same effect with improved overrun, with a much greater range against floor-based opponents.
Chuss'tith:
Concerning 11-19:
Carrying capacity plays no role in the grappling rules. You can have a strength of 1 and still pull a target adjacent after initiating a grapple with reach. At no point are you actually carrying the target of a grapple.The actual limitation is:
Unless otherwise noted, grab can only be used against targets of a size equal to or smaller than the creature with this ability.So what happens if you pull a target into the air?
It immediately falls back down.Concerning vertical movement:
While it's reasonable to break out some trig to figure out distances in 3D, Pathfinder only details how to measure and calculate stuff based on a 2D plane. Thus, you're going to have to rely on a GM's common sense rather than depend on strict rules on this one.For 24: That sounds reasonable. You might even be able to jump, as part of movement, to cut some corners.
Are you sure? That's certainly how I treat it at my table, but we have rules for pushing dragging and lifting that certainly could be applied to bullrush and grapple maneuvers to further decrease how often they are an option.
I can't believe this thread is still appearing near the top, because every time I see it I start singing in my head
"oooh, what a feeling,
when we're grappling on the ceiling"and it won't stop!
Finally!