does the new pummeling charge work with multiple sneak attacks now?


Rules Questions


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pummeling style
“Benefit: Whenever you use a full-attack action or
f lurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single
opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from
all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability
works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other
abilities you might possess.”

pummeling charge
“Benefit: You can charge and make a full
attack or f lurry of blows at the end of your charge as part
of the charge action. You can use Pummeling Charge
in this way only if all of your attacks qualify for using
Pummeling Style against a single target.”

and the rogue scout
Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.


Kefler wrote:

pummeling style

“Benefit: Whenever you use a full-attack action or
f lurry of blows to make multiple attacks against a single
opponent with unarmed strikes, total the damage from
all hits before applying damage reduction. This ability
works only with unarmed strikes, no matter what other
abilities you might possess.”

pummeling charge
“Benefit: You can charge and make a full
attack or f lurry of blows at the end of your charge as part
of the charge action. You can use Pummeling Charge
in this way only if all of your attacks qualify for using
Pummeling Style against a single target.”

and the rogue scout
Scout's Charge (Ex): At 4th level, whenever a scout makes a charge, her attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target were flat-footed. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces uncanny dodge.

It says attack. Not attacks therefore I would say only it applies to the first attack. Traditionally sneak attack only applies to the first attack when flat-footed.

Shadow Lodge

MrKurtz wrote:
Kefler wrote:
...
It says attack. Not attacks therefore I would say only it applies to the first attack. Traditionally sneak attack only applies to the first attack when flat-footed.
Incorrect: If your opponent is flat-footed, all the attacks you take get sneak attack damage. The 'only your first attack' ruling applies to cases where you lose the condition that granted you the sneak attack (such as stealth / invisibility / no longer flanking). In this particular case:
  • you can sneak attack because your target is denied his dex bonus.
  • Your target is denied his dex bonus because he is 'Flat-footed'
  • 'Flat-Footed' normally lasts until the character's first action.

So, the issue comes down to Scout's Charge using the term 'attack' which is pretty much going to come down to a GM's interpretation:

  • Was 'attack' used because the developers/editors didn't realize it was possible to get multiple attacks on a charge, or
  • was it intended to be limited to once per charge?
Honestly, this decision could easily go either way. Personally, I'm thinking the target should be 'flat-footed' against all your 'charge' attacks, so sneak attacks would apply to each...


Yeah, this isn't clear at all. FAQing for you.

That being said, I'd probably be inclined to only allow the Sneak Attack on the first attack of a charge based on this charging FAQ. (of course, this is only a suggestion as the FAQ isn't addressing this specific situation and thus isn't rules binding, by any means)


it probably doesn't work , cause rogues are doomed to suck :)


This question has come up here, and I believe there's nothing really stopping it from working. The assumption is one attack on a charge, but if you get more, each one is still an attack on a charge. Lances are an exception, rather than the rule.

It's really up to the GM, and I hope they don't wish to give rogues a nerf.


Kefler wrote:
it probably doesn't work , cause rogues are doomed to suck :)

"Doomed to suck" does not equal "not getting pounce with sneak attack on all attacks".

If it was allowed, unarmed strike-/brawler-/monk-rogue would all of a sudden be the best rogue. I'm quite sure that's not intentional.


I don't know if it will be helpful at all, but the only similar thing I am aware of is this feat:

Quote:

Hellcat Pounce (Combat)

Source Cheliax, Empire of Devils pg. 27 (Amazon)
You attack unsuspecting foes twice.

Prerequisites: Hellcat Stealth, Skill Focus (Stealth), sneak attack +2d6.

Benefit: Whenever you attack and damage an opponent in the surprise round, you may immediately make a second attack against the same opponent using the same attack bonus. The target is not considered flat-footed against this second attack.

Special: This ability only functions when carrying a light load or less.

In this case you are getting a second attack, in a surprise round, against a foe who should be flat-footed. However, the feat specifies that the creature is not considered flat-footed for that second attack. Although it doesn't apply to your specific case, it is a similar case and could be used to point you in the right direction as far as RAI.

Scarab Sages

The question also applies to the Swordmaster Rogue archetype.

I have seen opinions on the matter go either way here on the boards, and think that both sides of the argument have their merits.
I personally think that all attacks on the charge would deal their sneak attack damage and that the word "attack" is used in the Scout's Charge ability because multiple attacks on a charge were not considered when the ability was written. I would actually love to see an FAQ come up in regards to this to finally get an answer for PFS.
Locally we have a player who plays an Unchained Rogue with the Scout and Swordmaster archetypes, he is a natural attack tengu. One GM locally things that the the combo is overpowered and there is another GM that feels only the first attack gets a sneak attack, but most other GMs have not had a problem with the combination.

With the Swordmaster/Scout combo you have to spend a full round getting in to your trance and hope your charge lane stays open.
With the Pummeling Charge/Scout combo you have to do 8 levels of Monk or Brawler, or wait until 16th level to have a +12 BAB in order to qualify for the feat. If you multiclass to Monk or Brawler you delay your sneak attack dice, reducing the additional damage to the attacks. Waiting for a build to come online after level 8 is never really overpowered, and doubly so if you have to wait until 16.


Based on the existence of this:

Quote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

I'm going to say the intention is no, you absolutely will not get sneak attack damage on anything but the first attack.


Scout's Charge, as written is assumed to have only a single attack at the end of the charge. However, there are multiple abilities that allow for more than 1 attack at the end of a charge. These are relatively common.

If these apply, then the attacks would be resolved as if the target were flat-footed, as there is no text stating anything hinting about the target not being flat footed after the attack (unlike skirmisher or hellcat pounce).

One cannot assume the intent through the absence of text, when that text is present elsewhere.

But this does deserve a FAQ. Although I dread the answer.


If you pick up Shatter Defenses and Enforcer (or Power Attack + Cornugon Smash) you'll be covered either way. Kind of a lot of feats, I guess.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Claxon wrote:

Based on the existence of this:

Quote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
I'm going to say the intention is no, you absolutely will not get sneak attack damage on anything but the first attack.

I actually disagree, I think the wording of that ability specifically calling out only applying to the first attack further goes to support that all of the attacks on the charge would get sneak attack since it lacks such wording.


How would a scout move more Thant 10 feet and get multiple attacks WHEN NOT charging? I've been away from a game for a few weeks and my brain may just be rusty, but unless you are able to take a 15'-0" long "five foot step", wouldn't you be limited to single attacks?
If anything, it sounds like up until 8th level, the scout can get SA on multiple attacks with a charge (if he had access to multiple attacks that early), however once he reaches level 8, and gains iterative attacks, he loses the ability to apply SA damage to the multiple attacks.... With the one exception being that the scout charges precisely 10'-0".


Oddman80 wrote:

How would a scout move more Thant 10 feet and get multiple attacks WHEN NOT charging? I've been away from a game for a few weeks and my brain may just be rusty, but unless you are able to take a 15'-0" long "five foot step", wouldn't you be limited to single attacks?

If anything, it sounds like up until 8th level, the scout can get SA on multiple attacks with a charge (if he had access to multiple attacks that early), however once he reaches level 8, and gains iterative attacks, he loses the ability to apply SA damage to the multiple attacks.... With the one exception being that the scout charges precisely 10'-0".

Quicken spell like ability on major magic would do it. Or if the rogue multiclassed sufficiently to cast a quickened spell.

Are there any feats that let you throw stuff as a swift action?

Lantern Lodge

Oddman80 wrote:

How would a scout move more Thant 10 feet and get multiple attacks WHEN NOT charging? I've been away from a game for a few weeks and my brain may just be rusty, but unless you are able to take a 15'-0" long "five foot step", wouldn't you be limited to single attacks?

If anything, it sounds like up until 8th level, the scout can get SA on multiple attacks with a charge (if he had access to multiple attacks that early), however once he reaches level 8, and gains iterative attacks, he loses the ability to apply SA damage to the multiple attacks.... With the one exception being that the scout charges precisely 10'-0".

On horseback with a ranged weapon?

Scarab Sages

Or jaunt boots, or the Swordmaster Rogue's Monkey Trance.


Segovax wrote:
Claxon wrote:

Based on the existence of this:

Quote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.
I'm going to say the intention is no, you absolutely will not get sneak attack damage on anything but the first attack.
I actually disagree, I think the wording of that ability specifically calling out only applying to the first attack further goes to support that all of the attacks on the charge would get sneak attack since it lacks such wording.

The problem becomes that if you reach 8th level Scout, the Skirmisher ability will kick in . Meaning regardless of the fact that you charge (which requires a minimum movement of 10ft) you will meet the requirement for Skirmisher, which says only 1 attack can be Sneak Attack. Thus, this ability would retroactively prevent Scout's Charge from giving you multiple sneak attacks if your interpretation were correct.

I'm positive that if FAQ'd or clarified the answer will be no. The precedent is clear.

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:
Thus, this ability would retroactively prevent Scout's Charge from giving you multiple sneak attacks if your interpretation were correct.

Wait - why? Nothing about Skirmisher says that it overwrites Scout's Charge.

There is NO doubt that you can get multiple sneak attacks off of Scout's Charge if you have a way to pounce. The only question is whether Pummeling Charge now counts as multiple attacks. I think yes with the current wording - I'm not even 100% that Pummeling Charge punches through DR anymore.


wrote:
Skirmisher (Ex): At 8th level, whenever a scout moves more than 10 feet in a round and makes an attack action, the attack deals sneak attack damage as if the target was flat-footed. If the scout makes more than one attack this turn, this ability only applies to the first attack. Foes with uncanny dodge are immune to this ability. This ability replaces improved uncanny dodge.

(Bold mine)

This is a meaningless argument. The Skirmisher ability calls out when you move more than 10 feet and take the attack action, which is a standard action on it's own. It has ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with a charge or a pounce, since it specifically calls out the ATTACK ACTION, and both a charge and the pounce mechanic which runs off a charge are Full round actions and thus need not apply. Skirmisher just lets you move and take a single swing which gets sneak attack. It is giving you more options on the 4th level ability, by removing the charge (straight line, full round, etc) from the equation, and just letting you move around anyway you like and still get the benefits of sneak attack.


TGMaxMaxer:

Except they're not talking about the ability Skirmisher, but a different ability: Scout's Charge.

Grand Lodge

Byakko wrote:

TGMaxMaxer:

Except they're not talking about the ability Skirmisher, but a different ability: Scout's Charge.

No, Claxon was arguing that Skirmisher would interfere with Scout's Charge (it won't).


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Let me restate my position, because I have been unclear.

By RAW, this would work. But Kefler's curiosity hints at the idea that he thinks perhaps its not supposed to.

I keenly agree. Scout archetype was written well before pummeling style. When pummeling charge was errata'd, no one considered this particular interaction (I think). If this is ever FAQ'd or errata'd I feel very strongly and confidently that it would be clarified not to function, as they went to the trouble to specify that Skirmisher would not allow multiple sneak attacks if you somehow managed to get around the normal limitations of the ability. To me it shows a precedent that the developers have no desire to enable full attack sneak attack from the weaker/lesser version of that ability as Skirmisher is supposed to be an upgrade by removing the movement restrictions inherently associated with charging.


And that's why Martials can't have nice things, people always cry about damage, and in the end Paizo will nerf it.

Meanwhile, Gate and Simulacrum keeps untouched. I really love this forum. :p

Sovereign Court

Claxon wrote:

Let me restate my position, because I have been unclear.

By RAW, this would work. But Kefler's curiosity hints at the idea that he thinks perhaps its not supposed to.

I keenly agree. Scout archetype was written well before pummeling style. When pummeling charge was errata'd, no one considered this particular interaction (I think). If this is ever FAQ'd or errata'd I feel very strongly and confidently that it would be clarified not to function, as they went to the trouble to specify that Skirmisher would not allow multiple sneak attacks if you somehow managed to get around the normal limitations of the ability. To me it shows a precedent that the developers have no desire to enable full attack sneak attack from the weaker/lesser version of that ability as Skirmisher is supposed to be an upgrade by removing the movement restrictions inherently associated with charging.

So basically - you agree with me that it does work now.

You're simply speculating on what future erratas MAY be?

Okay... keep speculating. I'll keep playing with the rules as they are.


Claxon wrote:

Let me restate my position, because I have been unclear.

By RAW, this would work. But Kefler's curiosity hints at the idea that he thinks perhaps its not supposed to.

I keenly agree. Scout archetype was written well before pummeling style. When pummeling charge was errata'd, no one considered this particular interaction (I think). If this is ever FAQ'd or errata'd I feel very strongly and confidently that it would be clarified not to function, as they went to the trouble to specify that Skirmisher would not allow multiple sneak attacks if you somehow managed to get around the normal limitations of the ability. To me it shows a precedent that the developers have no desire to enable full attack sneak attack from the weaker/lesser version of that ability as Skirmisher is supposed to be an upgrade by removing the movement restrictions inherently associated with charging.

I agree with what you are saying but would suggest one change; it would not be a clarification that it does not function but rather an outright change of rules to make them no longer interact. By the rules it looks like it works. There was no intent to make it work and as i believe it was not ever considered by the team in making the first round of revisions it falls outside of RAI entirely. It was simply not considered so it was not something they thought of as yes or no. Should it begin to see common use there will likely be a flare up in the forums to draw attention to it and a new FAQ or revision will come out to prevent it. But that will be an explicit change in the rules from how they funciton now. In essence this is one of those "built on borrowed time" builds.

Sovereign Court

Torbyne wrote:
In essence this is one of those "built on borrowed time" builds.

Maybe - but it's not as if it's the first way that rogues have gotten pounce for plenty of SA in combo with Scout's Charge. Tengu Swordmaster gets a limited version of it. Kitsune get it at high levels with a few racial feats. Probably more that I can't think of off the top of my head.

This one has the cost of a couple of feats and needing to go unarmed. For a rogue - fighting unarmed is a very subpar choice - so it has the added cost of using a subpar option. It'd be beneficial to Snakebite Strikers, but they don't have Scout's Charge anyway, so it'd just let them get off full melee attacks when they win initiative and the opponent is still flat-footed. Nothing that a character with a bow can't already do.

A multiclass between the two could work decently - Snakebite 2/Scout 4 - but that's a build built around a single trick - and even with the 2 Brawler levels the unarmed is still only d6 damage.

*shrug*

Effective? Sure. OP? Not really.

Scarab Sages

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
For a rogue - fighting unarmed is a very subpar choice - so it has the added cost of using a subpar option.

It's not really a sub-par option for rogues to go unarmed though. The low damage die is not a huge downside when most of your damage comes from sneak attack. The low crit profile doesn't matter as much when sneak attack damage isn't multiplied on a crit. Unarmed strikes are bludgeoning weapons that do non-leathal with no penalty, so sap adept/master work well with them.

It can be a powerful option, especially with a brawler dip.


A two level dip to get a D6 fist and a D6 energy to each hit followed by the rest in Scout could go fairly well. I might mess around with the idea later and see what i can come up with actually.

Sovereign Court

Imbicatus wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
For a rogue - fighting unarmed is a very subpar choice - so it has the added cost of using a subpar option.
It's not really a sub-par option for rogues to go unarmed though.

Not crazily UP - but it's still sub-par.

At low levels d3 damage and only critting on a 20 hurts, though a dip into Snakebite Striker can mostly negate it. At higher levels that's not a huge deal anyway, but you have to use up your neck slot for an AoMF, so your AC will take a hit.

Viable - but still sub-par, so it's still an additional cost to using Pummeling Charge.


OK. When Scout's Charge was first created it was created assuming that the Rogue would only get 1 attack at the end of a charge since

"Charging is a special full-round action that allows you to move up to twice your speed and attack during the action. After moving, you may make a single melee attack."

However with Pummeling Charge

"You can charge and make a full attack or flurry of blows at the end of your charge as part of the charge action."

And since the Scout's charge says "her attack deals sneak attack damage" a Full attack is still "An Attack". Now the ability also "as if the target were flat-footed", they only put that there if the target had already moved in the round. But even then because she gets to treat her "Attack" as if they were flat footed then;

Since you can now make a Full attack at the end of the charge and because of Pummeling Styles new wording, you get to add all your normal modifiers to each attack and damage for the attack. So if the Target is denied its Dex (due to flanking when you finish the charge or due to being Flat-Footed) then yes by RAW the Rogue would get SA's on all the attacks that hit.


look the soonest it's working is lv12. Barbs can pounce o death by then. A rogue pouncing with 2 or 3 attacks at that level just keeps it competitive.


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Charon's Little Helper wrote:

So basically - you agree with me that it does work now.

You're simply speculating on what future erratas MAY be?

Okay... keep speculating. I'll keep playing with the rules as they are.

Sort of, but not quite. I agree that errata to other abilities has had a confluence with the Scout ability which has been overlooked, and has accidentally allowed this to work.

If it ever gets attention, I expect it to be changed. It is unclear if it will get attention any time soon, because who the hell actually understands how the FAQ queue actually works.


Get an animal companion and Pack Flanking feat.

Charge with your animal companion.

problem solved.

Btw
"Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat."

if you charge in the first round all your attack will get the targets who not acted yet flat-footed.

Grand Lodge

Leonardo Trancoso wrote:
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed

I don't think anyone here implied anything that would make it seem like they didn't already know that.


Leonardo Trancoso wrote:

Get an animal companion and Pack Flanking feat.

Charge with your animal companion.

problem solved.

Btw
"Flat-Footed
A character who has not yet acted during a combat is flat-footed, unable to react normally to the situation. A flat-footed character loses his Dexterity bonus to AC and Combat Maneuver Defense (CMD) (if any) and cannot make attacks of opportunity, unless he has the Combat Reflexes feat or Uncanny Dodge class ability.
Characters with Uncanny Dodge retain their Dexterity bonus to their AC and can make attacks of opportunity before they have acted in the first round of combat."

if you charge in the first round all your attack will get the targets who not acted yet flat-footed.

this has 2 problems:

a)if you don't have some sort of pounce, charging from a mount will again only net you 1 attack.

since when a mount charges, the rider counts as using the charge as well, thus only 1 attack.

b)the animal ALSO needs to have pack flanking, and due to the requirements of it, the only way to give it to it is to have some sort of teamwork feat sharing ability like an inquisitor, hunter, tactician, etc

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