Pathfinder Unchain Variant Multiclassing - The Witch


Rules Questions


Question 1:

A variant multiclass (VMC) witch selects a patron at 1st level. However, the only benefit a witch receives from selecting a patron is her "Patron Spells" class feature. However, as per the FAQ, "Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class." A VMC witch essentially chooses a patron for no reason whatsoever. Is this intentional?

http://paizo.com/paizo/faq/v5748nruor1fm#v5748eaic9s54

Question 2:

The hexes a VMC witch chooses are "as a 1st level witch." A witch's save DCs are based on the witch's class level. Does this mean all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15, at which point one of them becomes 14+Int? Alternatively, is there supposed to be text that reads something like "The DC of the witch's hexes is equal to 10+1/2 the witch's character level+Int modifier"?


1. Yes. It won't come into effect untill later. While the patron for a regular witch, rules wise, only grant patron spells, in flavour they also grant the hexes and all the other powers.

2. It's actually 10+1+Int mod (1 is = 1/2 rounded to a minimum of 1). But it seems to be what you say. I don't think the hex is supposed to scale with your character level.

Remember, this is instead of multiclassing, which means that you don't need to break level progression in your primary class and still gain some scaling abilities from the VMC, unlike a regular multiclassing where you'd not gain it.


Novawurmson wrote:
The hexes a VMC witch chooses are "as a 1st level witch." A witch's save DCs are based on the witch's class level. Does this mean all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15, at which point one of them becomes 14+Int? Alternatively, is there supposed to be text that reads something like "The DC of the witch's hexes is equal to 10+1/2 the witch's character level+Int modifier"

I'm not clear what you mean by "all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15." You only get one hex before level 15.

At 7th level you get a single hex and you treat your effective witch level as 1 for this hex only. At 15th level your effective witch level becomes 8th for this hex only.

At 15th level you get a second hex that counts your effective witch level as 1. This never changes.

At 19th level you get a major hex for which you count as a 10th level witch. This also never changes.

And that is all. You don't get any other hexes and you can't take the Extra Hex feat.


Rub-Eta wrote:
1. Yes. It won't come into effect untill later. While the patron for a regular witch, rules wise, only grant patron spells, in flavour they also grant the hexes and all the other powers.

Right, but...let's compare it to the VMC cleric. A VMC cleric has to choose a deity (or a philosophy, or what have you), and it has a specific effect on the game. The VMC sorcerer has to choose a bloodline which fluff-wise grants mystic powers, and it has a specific effect on the game. The VMC witch has to chose a patron, but it has no effect on the game. It's like the VMC fighter choosing a favored weapon, but instead of granting a bonus to attack and damage, you're just selecting what weapon you're rather fond of.

Quote:
2. It's actually 10+1+Int mod (1 is = 1/2 rounded to a minimum of 1). But it seems to be what you say. I don't think the hex is supposed to scale with your character level.

You're quite right. There's no way to edit posts on this forum, is there?

Quote:
Remember, this is instead of multiclassing, which means that you don't need to break level progression in your primary class and still gain some scaling abilities from the VMC, unlike a regular multiclassing where you'd not gain it.

Right, but almost all the other VMC abilities scale enough to keep them at least vaguely useful. At level 14, nothing is failing a saving throw of 11+Int, whereas a VMC Druid might be able to use Wild Empathy effectively and a VMC paladin is still using lay on hands for 5d6 healing as a swift action.

Gisher wrote:
Novawurmson wrote:
The hexes a VMC witch chooses are "as a 1st level witch." A witch's save DCs are based on the witch's class level. Does this mean all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15, at which point one of them becomes 14+Int? Alternatively, is there supposed to be text that reads something like "The DC of the witch's hexes is equal to 10+1/2 the witch's character level+Int modifier"

I'm not clear what you mean by "all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15." You only get one hex before level 15.

At 7th level you get a single hex and you treat your effective witch level as 1 for this hex only. At 15th level your effective witch level becomes 8th for this hex only.

At 15th level you get a second hex that counts your effective witch level as 1. This never changes.

At 19th level you get a major hex for which you count as a 10th level witch. This also never changes.

And that is all. You don't get any other hexes and you can't take the Extra Hex feat.

Sorry if it wasn't clear - I wrote "witches' hexes," i.e. multiple witches. If there are 10 characters, all of them have all take VMC witch, and all of them are less than level 15, the saving throw DC for each of their respective hexes would be 11+each of their respective Intelligence modifiers.


Novawurmson wrote:
Quote:
2. It's actually 10+1+Int mod (1 is = 1/2 rounded to a minimum of 1). But it seems to be what you say. I don't think the hex is supposed to scale with your character level.
You're quite right. There's no way to edit posts on this forum, is there?

Is that correct? The usual rounding rule is to round down, and the "minimum 1" language isn't present in the Witch class description. As far as I can tell, it should be 10 + Int mod.

Novawurmson wrote:
Quote:
Remember, this is instead of multiclassing, which means that you don't need to break level progression in your primary class and still gain some scaling abilities from the VMC, unlike a regular multiclassing where you'd not gain it.
Right, but almost all the other VMC abilities scale enough to keep them at least vaguely useful. At level 14, nothing is failing a saving throw of 11+Int, whereas a VMC Druid might be able to use Wild Empathy effectively and a VMC paladin is still using lay on hands for 5d6 healing as a swift action.

I agree completely. I was very disappointed in the Witch VMC. I expected some restrictions on Hexes like Slumber, but even the Flight Hex and Healing Hex aren't worth much if they don't progress.

Novawurmson wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Novawurmson wrote:
The hexes a VMC witch chooses are "as a 1st level witch." A witch's save DCs are based on the witch's class level. Does this mean all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15, at which point one of them becomes 14+Int? Alternatively, is there supposed to be text that reads something like "The DC of the witch's hexes is equal to 10+1/2 the witch's character level+Int modifier"

I'm not clear what you mean by "all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15." You only get one hex before level 15.

At 7th level you get a single hex and you treat your effective witch level as 1 for this hex only. At 15th level your effective witch level becomes 8th for this hex only.

At 15th level you get a second hex that counts your effective witch level as 1. This never changes.

At 19th level you get a major hex for which you count as a 10th level witch. This also never changes.

And that is all. You don't get any other hexes and you can't take the Extra Hex feat.

Sorry if it wasn't clear - I wrote "witches' hexes," i.e. multiple witches. If there are 10 characters, all of them have all take VMC witch, and all of them are less than level 15, the saving throw DC for each of their respective hexes would be 11+each of their respective Intelligence modifiers.

Ten characters with Hexes sounds like it could be fun. :)


I must say that it is weird that the patron doesn't have any effects. But I think leaving it outside the VMC would probably be weirder.
Sadly I must say that most VMCs are very situational, not many builds can stand with such a feat sink, not compared to what is often granted. It's even more worth losing one or two levels instead of all those feats.
But I guess the fighter is having fun.


Well, patron is for flavor, but also I could imagine it was an automation mistake. The author wrote the section: Secondary cleric must select a deity, secondary sorcerer must select a bloodline, secondary wizard must select a school... Secondary witch must select a patron. At that point he / she was probably beyond reasoning whether it actually makes a difference.

Depending on the GM, patron may have roleplay consequences though...


Novawurmson wrote:

Question 1:

A variant multiclass (VMC) witch selects a patron at 1st level. However, the only benefit a witch receives from selecting a patron is her "Patron Spells" class feature. However, as per the FAQ, "Adding a spell to your list of spells known does not add it to the spell list of that class unless they are added by a class feature of that same class." A VMC witch essentially chooses a patron for no reason whatsoever. Is this intentional?

FAQ

Question 2:

The hexes a VMC witch chooses are "as a 1st level witch." A witch's save DCs are based on the witch's class level. Does this mean all VMC witches' hexes have a save DC of 10+Int until level 15, at which point one of them becomes 14+Int? Alternatively, is there supposed to be text that reads something like "The DC of the witch's hexes is equal to 10+1/2 the witch's character level+Int modifier"?

If you got the class feature "Patron Spells", then they would be added to your class spell list. However, you get "Patron". Not the same thing.

Archetypes can affect the choice of cantrips.
The winter witch archetype does change the cantrips available.

At 7th level, you get a hex. It's CL remains 1 until 15th level when it becomes 8. The DC however, does scale, since your "witch level" is equal to your character level, and the DC is based off the "witch level". The Slumber Hex is modified to limit the HD that it can effect. That is the only change in hexes. At 19th, she gains a major hex, but cannot select Ice Tomb.

/cevah


Time to do the Gravewalker thing on this thread!

The VMC Witch option does indeed seem bad, since the Hexes overall do not scale, except for 15th level advancing your 1st Hex to 8th level, and the HD cap that the Slumber Hex wouldn't normally have scaling with your character level, and possibly the Hex Save DC scaling with your level as noted above (the Witch VMC text doesn't actually say that it does).

But, a few Hexes don't scale with level anyway, or only have a slight scaling. Unfortunately, those (Cackle, Cauldron, Coven, Water Lung, and probably a couple of others, and Major Hexes Beast Eye, Cook People, Pariah, and Vision, at least) are probably ones you would want to fill out a series of Hexes that mostly do scale, and this means that you need to get Hexes in your primary class. Since Pathfinder Unchained unfortunately didn't think of allowing you to VMC into your primary class (which would be akin to a Kineticist choosing the same secondary element as their primary element), this means that you have to have a different primary class that grants Hexes -- this means Hexcrafter Magus, Shaman, or Spirit Whisperer Oracle. (I don't think I missed any other non-Witch Hex-granting classes or archetypes -- let me know if I missed one.) In the case of Hexcrafter Magus, the Cantrip gained at 11th level could even be useful, to get one that is not on the Magus spell list, namely Stabilize, to be used in case somebody (especially your primary healer) goes down, and the Familiar gained at 3rd level is something that some other Magi otherwise would feel it worth spending an Arcana on to get, and you even get 3 bonus feats (Combat/Item Creation/Metamagic) from being a Magus in the first place, so I'm thinking mostly of this option. It's 02:27 here, so I don't have a specific build in mind yet, but what do people think of this (or one of the other options above) as a possible redemption for this otherwise essentially unusable VMC?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

No idea about layering it on magus. We kind of gave up on it for the most part. I always read the DC as not advancing (since it's "as a 1st-level witch").

That said, if you can assemble a coven, having the coven hex as a non-witch (say, as a fighter or rogue) could be really interesting. ^_^


Actually, just realized that you can gain Extra Arcana or Extra Hex multiple times, so the Hexcrafter Magus option is less interesting unless you REALLY want that Stabilize. Shaman and Spirit Whisperer Oracle already have this, so they might as well go the Extra Hex route as well.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber

Doesn't the VMC say "You can never take the Extra Hex feat"?


Kalindlara wrote:
Doesn't the VMC say "You can never take the Extra Hex feat"?

Correct. Out of all the VMC options, only Oracle and Witch explicitly state you can not qualify/take their Extra (class feature) feat.


Sorry, what I meant was for a Hexcrafter Magus to take Extra Arcana/Extra Hex instead of going VMC Witch.

Strange that only VMC Oracle and VMC Witch have the limitation against taking Extra {whatever}.


Yes, for a Hexcrafter VMC Witch is a waste of feats.

Sovereign Court

1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion Subscriber; Pathfinder Comics Subscriber
Gisher should of wrote:
Yes, for a Pathfinder character VMC Witch is a waste of feats.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Kalindlara wrote:
Gisher should of wrote:
Yes, for a Pathfinder character VMC Witch is a waste of feats.

I stand corrected. :)


Well, I tried, but some things are just too bad to use. VMC Witch needs to be redone in Variant Multiclassing Reloaded. I would be inclined to just have it award Hexes as a Witch 2 levels below your character level at levels 7 and 11, and Major Hexes as a Witch 2 levels below your character level at levels 15 and 19, in both cases with no other restructions than not qualifying you for Extra Hex. (Level 3 ability would stay as awarding you a Familiar -- sure wish something useful could be done with the Patron that you choose at 1st level, but this would be hard to do without a bunch of conditional statements.


The familiar isn't a terrible deal since it would normally take two feats to get one. Considering that I feel like I'm not really "losing" a feat until 11th level. Of course the Wizard VMC grants a familiar too, and the arcane school powers it grants are probably better than a single hex which doesn't scale in most cases. Getting the Cackle hex at 7th level might be helpful for an archetype which gains other hexes like Evil Eye (at the very least it would be as good as the Extra Hex feat, and some archetypes like Hoaxer Bard couldn't normally gain Cackle)

I mean, the Witch VMC really does seem a little disappointing compared to some others, but it might still be useful in some cases.


Resurrect thread!

So one final question for the VMC Witch. I'll assume that the duration for a hex based on min per level is still only one min as well? :(


It would be based on the individual hex's "effective witch level" which changes and is hex specific. There's an FAQ that changed how the level interacts. I don't have it handy though. Maybe someone else can throw the latest link up?


Thanks. I will look for that. :)


Hmm I can't find any FAQ regarding this.


I apologize, I was miss remembering. If you look at the VMC witch on the pfsrd you'll see the progression of the hex's though. Consider any level based factors such as DC and duration in the context of tumour effective witch level and you should be good to go.


No worries.

However...

VMC

I don't see anything there specifically calling out the hex with regard to duration based on level etc. I'm not sure if the intent is to function as 1st level for everything or just for the additional abilities the hex gets at later levels. So no extra abilities but an increase in duration?

I can't see anything that says the hexes advance in duration(except at the later levels when the hex functions at a higher level anyways). Granted maybe the intent is for the duration to increase? Maybe not? I don't know! Ha. Oh well. Thanks.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder RPG / Rules Questions / Pathfinder Unchain Variant Multiclassing - The Witch All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.