Is a oracle rock a light weapon?


Rules Questions


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I was wondering if you could use TWF with the oracle stone ability?

Rock Throwing (Ex): You are an accomplished rock thrower and have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. You can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than your own size. The range increment for a rock is 20 feet, and you can hurl it up to 5 range increments. Damage for a hurled rock is 2d4 for a Medium creature or 2d3 for a Small creature, plus 1-1/2 your Strength bonus.


That is sadly one of the illdefined corner cases..

basically you should ask your GM. It is pretty reasonable to assume they are though.. because twice your size reduction is pretty damn small and should weigh around a daggers weight depending..

but no official designation as far as i'm aware. Last time I proper looked was 2013 though


Zwordsman wrote:

That is sadly one of the illdefined corner cases..

basically you should ask your GM. It is pretty reasonable to assume they are though.. because twice your size reduction is pretty damn small and should weigh around a daggers weight depending..

but no official designation as far as i'm aware. Last time I proper looked was 2013 though

i was thinking it could be really nasty with rapid shot and all the TWF feats , 1.5 str on all of them is pretty good


I woudln't say nasty..

but it is solid. I did that (well not rapid shot).

Note.. last i read it. Mighty Pebble and rock throwing are together. So if you have rock throwing and you use mighty pebbel to hit someone rather than just aiming for splash effect. it should still set off your rock throwing damage too.

Honestly I freaking love stone oracle's stuff.. even if its not the best.

I had a fun one made out of (well i never got to it, but was building towards) that Barbarian + Oracle prestige class


Zwordsman wrote:

I woudln't say nasty..

but it is solid. I did that (well not rapid shot).

Note.. last i read it. Mighty Pebble and rock throwing are together. So if you have rock throwing and you use mighty pebbel to hit someone rather than just aiming for splash effect. it should still set off your rock throwing damage too.

Honestly I freaking love stone oracle's stuff.. even if its not the best.

I had a fun one made out of (well i never got to it, but was building towards) that Barbarian + Oracle prestige class

oracle 1

barbarian 1-2 ( hurler for range or wild rager for x-tra attack
then ranger for the TWF feats with out the dex?

what kind of str/ dex would you use?


I myself focused on Dex... but I didn't mind lower damage due to the game's setting..

But if you were building it right up. I would go one of two ways.
Either build towards a belt of mighty hurling (use str to throw) and go mostly strength (with slayer or ranger I suppose if you want to bypass the dex reqs for TWF)

or what your up to.

I'm not the best at these sorta things without just testing them out.

but in general. prioritze actually hitting with your attack over massive damages. It is far easier in pathfinder to get damage than it is to get extra to hit. and damage is worthless if you can't hit.


You might find this thread useful :)

Sovereign Court

Okay some tips for this:

If you want max damage a Belt of Mighty hurling should be your goal. However you will have issues hitting until you can get this without a reasonable dex. However with this and a level of Hurler Barbarian you have a 40ft range increment

Generally rocks are considered improvised weapons(check with your gm again to see if they rule on your proficiency) so get throw anything and catch off guard along with the trait of Surprise Weapon.

If your GM considers you proficient and that they aren't improvised ask about Weapon Master Fighter. I specialize in rocks!

Also note the rocks are fragile as weapons (see special materials in ultimate combat) so you can use the disposable weapon feat to make sure you crit.


Zwordsman wrote:

That is sadly one of the illdefined corner cases..

basically you should ask your GM. It is pretty reasonable to assume they are though.. because twice your size reduction is pretty damn small and should weigh around a daggers weight depending..

but no official designation as far as i'm aware. Last time I proper looked was 2013 though

No.

Twice your size reduction means that, as a human, you're tossing the equivalent of Tiny-sized creatures, not tiny-sized weapons.

The rock does 1½*Str damage. That strongly implies that it's a two-handed throw. The word "hurl", used instead of "throw" or "toss", implies the same.

Obvious intent is that thrown rocks are two-handed weapons. There is no support at all for the idea that they are light weapons.


Kefler wrote:

I was wondering if you could use TWF with the oracle stone ability?

Rock Throwing (Ex): You are an accomplished rock thrower and have a +1 racial bonus on attack rolls with thrown rocks. You can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than your own size. The range increment for a rock is 20 feet, and you can hurl it up to 5 range increments. Damage for a hurled rock is 2d4 for a Medium creature or 2d3 for a Small creature, plus 1-1/2 your Strength bonus.

PRD wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

I think this lends some support to any argument that the rocks are indeed light weapons. By these guidelines you can't throw a rock equivalent to a one-handed weapon.

Scarab Sages

Chess Pwn wrote:
You might find this thread useful :)

Yay! Referenced!


dragonhunterq wrote:


PRD wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

I think this lends some support to any argument that the rocks are indeed light weapons. By these guidelines you can't throw a rock equivalent to a one-handed weapon.

It says right there that a weapon with a size catagory of medium isn't the same thing as medium sized object. The ability specifies that you are throwing things two categories smaller than your own size, not smaller than the size of a two handed weapon sized for you.

Since the rules are silent on the size of weapons, lets make some extrapolations based on weight. Now, I don't have any example of a tiny sized object, but I can get some examples of a tiny sized creature. Lets use a Cat. Listed weight is 5-15 pounds. Lets assume 10 pounds average. Since Stone is a lot more heavy than flesh and bones, that number should probably double. In any case, a tiny sized rock should probably weight more than a Greatsword(8 pounds). Good luck throwing that thing like a Dagger(1 pound) or Starknife (3 pounds). Even the heaviest throwable light weapons are only 5 pounds, and a chunk of rock or similar is a lot less ergonomic than a weapon designed for it.


The way I see it, it doesn't specify that it is a light weapon, therefore it is not a light weapon. You can still TWF with them, but you take the non-light off-hand penalties.


Snowblind wrote:
Since the rules are silent on the size of weapons, lets make some extrapolations based on weight. Now, I don't have any example of a tiny sized object, but I can get some examples of a tiny sized creature. Lets use a Cat. Listed weight is 5-15 pounds. Lets assume 10 pounds average.

human male = 130 to 220 lbs (175 average)

halfling male = 32 to 38 lbs (35 average)

Extrapolating: Tiny = 7 lbs average

However, a halfling is a little taller than half a human male's height, so the extrapolation provides error.

A better way to extrapolate is that going from medium to small is halving the size and then halving the size again. Each size reduction applies a 1/8th weight reduction (simplified geometry of a volume, or Reduce Person spell verbiage, take your pick).

human: 175 / 8 / 8 = 2.73 lbs average for a tiny sized rock

A Star Knife is a light weapon that weighs 3 lbs and has a ranged increment of 20 ft. This pretty much describes the tiny sized rock.

Now here is the rub....

You can hurl rocks up to two categories smaller than your own size.

It does not say you have to throw rocks that are two categories exactly smaller than you. So, throwing a rock that is sized to be a light weapon qualifies per RAW, as long as it is a rock.

So yeah, lots of fuzziness with that ability...


Kazaan wrote:
The way I see it, it doesn't specify that it is a light weapon, therefore it is not a light weapon. You can still TWF with them, but you take the non-light off-hand penalties.

You don't need it to specify. The factor that it's tiny-sized would provide a -4 penalty (because the rock is sized for a Tiny creature, not a Medium creature). Even with it being a Light weapon, it's sitting at a -6 penalty to throw the rock.

The rock couldn't even be Medium-sized, since then it would require two hands, it would get 1.5x Strength to damage (potentially), and not be applicable to TWF with, according to the Greatsword + Armor Spikes FAQ.


Snowblind wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:


PRD wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

I think this lends some support to any argument that the rocks are indeed light weapons. By these guidelines you can't throw a rock equivalent to a one-handed weapon.

It says right there that a weapon with a size catagory of medium isn't the same thing as medium sized object. The ability specifies that you are throwing things two categories smaller than your own size, not smaller than the size of a two handed weapon sized for you.

A weapon has a size ascribed to it that is not it's size as an object, so to clarify:

A medium sized long sword is a small object, A medium sized dagger is a tiny object. a large longsword is a medium object, a large dagger is a small object.

In reverse that means a tiny object (2 sizes smaller than medium) is a light weapon sized for a medium wielder, or a one-handed weapon sized for a small wielder, or a 2 handed weapon for a tiny wielder.

Scarab Sages

Let us take a look at a Stone Giant.

It has a BAB of +9, and a DEX of 15. For the Full Attack action of the Rock (it does have Quick Draw), it is +11/+6 for 1d8+12 (STR 27, resulting in 8x1.5).

There is no penalty for it to throw a Rock two size category smaller than it.

My thread has a bunch of back and forth on the variation of this Oracle ability. Here are a few summaries of them:

- You are proficient in Rock Throwing (there is an alternate build that resolves some cases of Table Variation; However, as someone pointed out in it, Even the Proficiency Feats does not make you proficient with the weapon, only removes the -4 penalty)
- The physical size of the Rock two sizes smaller than a Medium creature would be around the size of a skipping stone. Creature size does not equal weapon size.
- Because it is a thrown weapon with range increments, you need at least Quick Draw to have an attack action larger than a single attack.
- Using the Hurling Rage Power converts it to use falling damage (including Reflex save), rather than the 2d4+Modifier for its damage rolls.
- To ignore any range penalties (your range increment x5), you will need 3 things: Distance Thrower, Far Shot, and a Hunter's Sight from ACG.

I'll bump the other thread for further discussions.


dragonhunterq wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
dragonhunterq wrote:


PRD wrote:

Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon's size category isn't the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon's size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a one-handed weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

I think this lends some support to any argument that the rocks are indeed light weapons. By these guidelines you can't throw a rock equivalent to a one-handed weapon.

It says right there that a weapon with a size catagory of medium isn't the same thing as medium sized object. The ability specifies that you are throwing things two categories smaller than your own size, not smaller than the size of a two handed weapon sized for you.

A weapon has a size ascribed to it that is not it's size as an object, so to clarify:

A medium sized long sword is a small object, A medium sized dagger is a tiny object. a large longsword is a medium object, a large dagger is a small object.

In reverse that means a tiny object (2 sizes smaller than medium) is a light weapon sized for a medium wielder, or a one-handed weapon sized for a small wielder, or a 2 handed weapon for a tiny wielder.

You can throw a rock up to two sizes smaller than your size. So a Medium creature could throw a Fine, Diminutive, or Tiny rock. But a Diminutive or smaller object would be an effort category below light which would make it unwieldable; so why would they specify the "up to" when they could have just said, "you can throw a rock two size categories smaller than your character"? The fact that they included "up to" means you can throw a rock that is smaller than what would be considered a light weapon. Moreover, ranged weapons don't have effort categories. Some have virtual effort categories; shuriken aren't light weapons, but they are treated as such for the purpose of TWF penalties. Same goes for Hand Crossbows. Thrown weapons that are also melee weapons will adopt the melee weapon's effort category. But the thrown rock isn't a melee/throwing weapon; it's just a throwing weapon and one which doesn't specify that it counts as light for the purpose of TWF penalties. Ergo, it doesn't count as light for the purpose of TWF penalties. Moreover, from a "realism" standpoint, a "Tiny" stone is still going to be about a foot across. A diminutive stone is about a half a foot across and a fine stone is about a quarter foot across (about baseball sized). Thus, a Fine stone is about 1 lb based on common stone density averages, a Diminutive stone is about 8 lb, and a Tiny stone is about 64 lb. Do you think you're going to throw a 64 lb stone as a light weapon? I'd venture as to say that even throwing a 1 lb stone the size of a baseball is beyond the scope of throwing a light weapon.

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