Paladin casting Infernal Healing on themselves


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Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The idea is that is it okay for a Paladin to case Infernal Healing on themselves. They specifically took a dip into Bloodrager so they have access to the spell and can cast it from a wand.

Okay, I've tried to do the best search I can on this idea, but I keep coming to this wall that while it would be okay if someone else cast it on the Paladin that it wouldn't impact their code, but it seems like it is 50/50 whether or not it would effect their code if they cast it themselves.

As far as I can tell, the PFS FAQ says that casting a spell with the Evil descriptor isn't an evil act, but how can you reconcile casting a spell on yourself that makes you "The target detects as an evil creature for the duration of the spell and can sense the evil of the magic..." with your Good aligned God that this isn't an evil act.

Maybe if you are a LG Paladin of a LN God, but even that seems like a stretch to me.

Silver Crusade

I sense table variation afoot!

My only concern is the component requirement. Even if they're using a wand.

Liberty's Edge 5/5

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Regardless whether casting an evil spell is considered an evil act for the general character populous or not. Its still an evil spell. As such, a paladin would fall at my table if the knowingly choose to cast this spell.

Silver Crusade

This reminds me of the old "Your alginment won't go to evil for doing an evil faction mission, but you may still fall as a paladin." Just because we can use [evil] spells without an alignment infraction, that doesn't make it ok for good PCs, especially paladins.

Edited to respond to Andrew's post, since he ninja'd me. While I agree that paladins shouldn't be doing it, I don't believe in insta-fall for anything but REALLY obvious evil (killing orphans, etc). A warning from their god and an Atonement would cover it.

Scarab Sages

Personally, I wouldn't be in support of it. As a Paladin, I think, although casting an Evil Spell isn't technically evil by house rule, neither is poison, which is one of the things called out by a Paladin not to do. (Under Code of Conduct, acting with honor). While they aren't equitable, the sense of evil and wrong would, imo, make a Paladin feel so uneasy as to want (but not need) an atonement. It doesn't seem Paladiny to me to use Infernal Healing.

If the player makes a real good argument for it, I might allow it. But it's not that great of a spell to argue about. It's nice, but I'd be fine with my CLW wand if I was playing a really good guy, like a Paladin.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

5/5

A Paladin of a Good aligned deity couldn't cast it in any event as they, like clerics, are incapable of casting spells of an opposite alignment to their Gods.

2/5 5/5

As a GM, I would not allow it without repercussions.

As an avid player of paladins, I would not consider it unless there was a compelling story reason which drove my characters to face those repercussions for the greater good. Key point being I know there would be repercussions, and that could make for some interesting game play.

Shadow Lodge 4/5

Yeah, warn first, then deprive of divine powers. Assuming they cast it, I mean.

Completely crazy thing to do as a paladin in any case.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I would be very sorely tempted to warn (the first time), then fall a single level the second time, and if they did it a third time, bye bye paladinhood.

I know technically a paladin falls all or nothing, but it feels like this is too minor to warrant falling outright unless they are making a habit of it. (On the other hand, if they really did multiclass just so they could do this, I might warn them at the start of game and skip that first warning.)


andreww wrote:
A Paladin of a Good aligned deity couldn't cast it in any event as they, like clerics, are incapable of casting spells of an opposite alignment to their Gods.

This.

They are good divine casters. They cannot cast any spell with an evil descriptor period.

2/5

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

How is this even a question?

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Jessex wrote:
andreww wrote:
A Paladin of a Good aligned deity couldn't cast it in any event as they, like clerics, are incapable of casting spells of an opposite alignment to their Gods.

This.

They are good divine casters. They cannot cast any spell with an evil descriptor period.

Ambiguous, actually.

Their deity does not grant them any evil spells, and they are effectively not on their spell list. But he isn't using his divine levels or divine spell list. He is using his bloodrage. It is a case where he is getting powers from two different sources. One is his god, the other is his blood. The powers from his god don't stop him from using the powers in his blood. But if he uses them for evil, he may lose the powers of his god.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

Read the OP. The paladin is using a dip into an arcane class to cast it.

Dark Archive

I am not a Pathfinder Society sanctioned GM, but I have been GMing D&D and other games since about 1994 at least (first game I GMed was Vampire the Masquerade 2nd edition)

So this is my two cents on how I run it in my games.

If he was JUST arcane, it wouldn't matter. Evil spells? Arcane casters DGAF.

But, he's ALSO a paladin. The spell may be arcane, but by having the paladin class he has to abide by the paladin's rules. So, yes he can cast it. He just knowingly and willingly cast a spell with the Evil descriptor. He's now a level 1 bloodrager / level X warrior... until he gets atonement and at least in my games, it wouldn't be happening (at least not so easily as 'I get an atonement spell') when the act was knowingly and willingly done.

Scarab Sages

Casting an evil spell is not an evil act. You don't change alignment. However, it's also not in line with a paladin's code IMO. I'd treat it as using poison. Not something that is inherently evil, but not something you yourself would do. If you knowing cast it, you're going to need an atonement.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

The player in question is falling on the RAW vs the RAI sword. Saying the PFS states that casting a Evil Spell is not technically an Evil act. But, in my opinion, what you do with the spell then defines your actions. I just can't justify using an evil spell even to help you champion good. I don't see how he wouldn't have to atone for doing this.

Also, I agree, it really isn't that great of a spell to go through all of these hoops just to have a paladin that can cast it off a wand. I think he just found a cool idea and ran with it. I'm trying to see how a PFS GM would handle this at a table.

Grand Lodge

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I generally have a distaste for a Paladin using Infernal Healing, but also have an issue with saying it's black and white.
Can evil be used for good? Yes. It's much more dependent on the logic/roleplay behind the decision for me. Though I generally lean towards it being an atonement than ok.

Also, for those in the paladin falling drinking game, fill 'em up

Dark Archive

Imbicatus wrote:
Casting an evil spell is not an evil act. You don't change alignment. However, it's also not in line with a paladin's code IMO. I'd treat it as using poison. Not something that is inherently evil, but not something you yourself would do. If you knowing cast it, you're going to need an atonement.

You don't change alignment, no. But you are still casting a spell with an evil descriptor. Kicking a puppy, putting kittens in a burlap sack and throwing them in the river, casting Infernal Healing... it's all something that a PALADIN cannot do without becoming an ex-paladin. He'll still be Lawful Good, he just won't be a paladin.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
TClifford wrote:
is it okay for a Paladin to case Infernal Healing on themselves

If you can give me a good reason why, sure.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, though.

5/5 5/55/55/5

Nefreet wrote:
TClifford wrote:
is it okay for a Paladin to case Infernal Healing on themselves

If you can give me a good reason why, sure.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, though.

Dragging self through a burning orphanage and the only source of healing at hand is the wand.

Grand Lodge

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Nefreet wrote:
TClifford wrote:
is it okay for a Paladin to case Infernal Healing on themselves

If you can give me a good reason why, sure.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, though.

Fighting in the worldwound and you're running out of resources but know how to turn the blood of the demons you've slain into healing for you and your comrades?

3/5 Venture-Agent, Canada—Alberta—Grand Prairie aka DM Livgin

FLite wrote:
Jessex wrote:
andreww wrote:
A Paladin of a Good aligned deity couldn't cast it in any event as they, like clerics, are incapable of casting spells of an opposite alignment to their Gods.

This.

They are good divine casters. They cannot cast any spell with an evil descriptor period.

Ambiguous, actually.

Their deity does not grant them any evil spells, and they are effectively not on their spell list. But he isn't using his divine levels or divine spell list. He is using his bloodrage. It is a case where he is getting powers from two different sources. One is his god, the other is his blood. The powers from his god don't stop him from using the powers in his blood. But if he uses them for evil, he may lose the powers of his god.

Interestingly enough, the Cleric class has this fine print:

CRB wrote:
Chaotic, Evil, Good, and Lawful Spells: A cleric can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one). Spells associated with particular alignments are indicated by the chaotic, evil, good, and lawful descriptors in their spell descriptions.

The Paladin does not have the same fine print.

And to add a tangent; for a good cleric, does the spell trigger activation count as casting?

5/5 Venture-Agent, Germany—Hamburg aka Calenor

Lets mot start the Infernal Healing 'War' again.

The cheesy point for me is, the Paladin can get CLW-Wands as easy as IH-Wands. And when the only point for using the IH-Wand is, that its more bang for the buck, theres something wrong with this Paladin.


I see this come up every so often and I don't understand it. Yes, it is an evil spell, yes it makes you detect as evil. We have established evil spells do not make one evil. If I were a paladin, my attitude would be as follows. "You killed a devil and want to use its blood to heal me, and then I can fight more evil? great! Lets bleed every last one of them."

2/5

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Using evil to fight evil is very morally ambiguous it is something a Chaotic Good person would do not a paladin.


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I heard paladin

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/55/55/55/5 Venture-Captain, Indiana—Southern aka CanisDirus

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At my table, if a paladin wants to do anything (including infernal healing) that I think is even remotely gray area, I ask the player how they justify their actions with their alignment and paladin's code. If they can do so, I let it go. If they cannot, I give them one warning before considering it to be an alignment infraction.

Spoiler:
A tiefling paladin focused on destroying evil in the world above all else, or one with the oath of vengeance, passes this test quite easily imho, but risks falling easier in other ways.

Tldr: expect table variation

4/5

FLite wrote:
Jessex wrote:
andreww wrote:
A Paladin of a Good aligned deity couldn't cast it in any event as they, like clerics, are incapable of casting spells of an opposite alignment to their Gods.
They are good divine casters. They cannot cast any spell with an evil descriptor period.

Ambiguous, actually.

Their deity does not grant them any evil spells, and they are effectively not on their spell list. But he isn't using his divine levels or divine spell list. He is using his bloodrage. It is a case where he is getting powers from two different sources. One is his god, the other is his blood. The powers from his god don't stop him from using the powers in his blood. But if he uses them for evil, he may lose the powers of his god.

Actually, the restriction on good/evil/chaotic/lawful spells does not state the restrictions are limited to spells from the class itself.

For instance the cleric/inquisitor versions state: "can't cast spells of an alignment opposed to her own or her deity's (if she has one)."

Nowhere does it state that the source of those spells matter.

/shrug

5/5

Joe Ducey wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
TClifford wrote:
is it okay for a Paladin to case Infernal Healing on themselves

If you can give me a good reason why, sure.

I can't think of one off the top of my head, though.

Fighting in the worldwound and you're running out of resources but know how to turn the blood of the demons you've slain into healing for you and your comrades?

Infernal healing requires devil blood. I shudder to think what substituting it with demon blood would result in...

Scarab Sages

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Champions of Purity book page 15 states..

"Characters using spells with the evil descriptor should consider themselves to be committing minor acts of evil."

A paladin can certainly not commit an evil act if you ask me.


Since when does a paladin need extra healing?

Grand Lodge

Durngrun Stonebreaker wrote:
Since when does a paladin need extra healing?

For those around him after a long day. (generally not for himself in my experience.)

Mekkis wrote:
Infernal healing requires devil blood. I shudder to think what substituting it with demon blood would result in...

Oops you're correct. That would be awkward. (Substitute Cheliax instead, I guess)

Scarab Sages 5/5 5/5 Venture-Captain, Washington—Spokane

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According to the Core Rule Book:

Core Rule Book pg 64 wrote:

Ex-Paladins

A paladin who ceases to be lawful good, who willfully
commits an evil act, or who violates the code of conduct loses
all paladin spells and class features (including the service
of the paladin’s mount, but not weapon, armor, and shield
proficiencies). She may not progress any further in levels
as a paladin. She regains her abilities and advancement
potential if she atones for her violations (see the atonement
spell description in Chapter 10), as appropriate.

PFS FAQ - Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?

PFS FAQ wrote:
Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues. Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. For example: using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.

Pathfinder Society Role Playing Guild Guide - Alignment Infractions Section

Pathfinder Society Role Playing Guild Guide pg 35 Alignment Infractions wrote:

Alignment Infractions

Players are responsible for their characters’ actions. Killing
an innocent, wanton destruction, and other acts that can be
construed as evil by the GM may be considered alignment
infractions. “That’s just what my character would do” is not
a defense for behaving like a jerk.
Alignment infractions are a touchy subject. Ultimately,
the GM is the fial authority at the table, but she must warn
any player whose character is deviating from his chosen
alignment. This warning must be clear, and the GM must
make sure that the player understands the warning and the
actions that initiated the warning. The PC should be given
the opportunity to correct the behavior, justify it, or face the
consequences. We believe a deity would forgive a one-time
bad choice as long as the action wasn’t too egregious (such
as burning down an orphanage full of children, killing a
peasant for no good reason but sport, etc.). Hence, the GM
can issue a warning to the player through a “feeling” he
receives from his deity, a vision he is given, his conscience
talking to him, or some other similar roleplaying event.
If infractions continue in the course of the scenario
or sanctioned module or adventure path, an alignment
change may be in order. If the GM deems these continued
actions warrant an alignment change, she should note it
on the character’s Chronicle sheet at the end of the session
in the Conditions Gained box. The character may remove
this gained condition through an atonement spell. If the
condition is removed, the GM should also note it on the
Chronicle sheet.
Characters who become wantonly evil, whose actions
are deliberate and without motive or provocation, are
retired from the campaign. This measure is a last resort;
there is more than one way to play a given alignment.
If a character has become wantonly evil as defied above, the
GM should escalate the report to the convention coordinator,
or the local Venture-Captain or Venture-Lieutenant. If they
agree with the GM, then the character is deemed wantonly
evil and considered removed from the campaign. Again,
these measures should be taken as a very last resort.
In the event of a wantonly evil character, record the
character as “Dead,” and the person who enters the tracking
sheet should check that box as well. If the convention
coordinator, Venture-Captain, or Venture-Lieutenant
decides the character fits the criteria for being wantonly
evil, she will then email the campaign coordinator to
advise him of the situation, including the player’s name,
Pathfinder Society Number, character name, and email
address. She will advise the player of these actions and
offer the player the campaign coordinator’s email address
so the player may present his case.
The Campaign Coordinator will present all facts to
the Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants at large
with all names (both player and character) removed. If the
majority of Venture-Captains and Venture-Lieutenants
feel that the act was wantonly evil and the character is
irrevocably evil, then character will remain removed from
the campaign. If the majority feel the character should be able to atone for his actions, the campaign coordinator
will contact the player and advise him of such. The email
may be printed and taken to the next game session so the
GM may adjudicate the atonement and document it on the
Chronicle sheet of the that game.

Based on this information if a Paladin were to cast Infernal Healing (a knowingly evil act not causing an alignment shift) on themselves I would consider to be an action to cause a paladin to lose their abilities and would require an atonement to regain them.

Silver Crusade

I would do like Bramnik and give them a warning and one chance to explain their in-character reasoning.

5/5

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BigNorseWolf wrote:

A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

What if I'm a paladin of Abadar?

Scarab Sages

A Dead Horse wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

What if I'm a paladin of Abadar?

What about Abadar would make you feel this makes less sense for a paladin? Reading the description here http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Abadar if anything it would be more so as he is the guardian of the vault that holds perfect examples of a paladin.

"Abadar and his faithful hold creatures that symbolize law and perfection in high regard"

5/5

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Yuri Sarreth wrote:
A Dead Horse wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

What if I'm a paladin of Abadar?

What about Abadar would make you feel this makes less sense for a paladin? Reading the description here http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Abadar if anything it would be more so as he is the guardian of the vault that holds perfect examples of a paladin.

"Abadar and his faithful hold creatures that symbolize law and perfection in high regard"

*Facepalm*

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
TClifford wrote:

The player in question is falling on the RAW vs the RAI sword. Saying the PFS states that casting a Evil Spell is not technically an Evil act. But, in my opinion, what you do with the spell then defines your actions. I just can't justify using an evil spell even to help you champion good. I don't see how he wouldn't have to atone for doing this.

Also, I agree, it really isn't that great of a spell to go through all of these hoops just to have a paladin that can cast it off a wand. I think he just found a cool idea and ran with it. I'm trying to see how a PFS GM would handle this at a table.

I'd give the Paladin a warning sign at the first use, a heavier sign at the second use, then he'd start losing his powers at the third.

You can't fool the divinities or your self by trying to shunt responsibility for the powers you wield, whether as a paladin or a bloodrager, they are still you wielding the power, and making a concious choice to do so.

*Now you can go on how I'm an awful and tyrannical PFS Judge*

3/5 5/5

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A Dead Horse wrote:
Yuri Sarreth wrote:
A Dead Horse wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

What if I'm a paladin of Abadar?

What about Abadar would make you feel this makes less sense for a paladin? Reading the description here http://pathfinder.wikia.com/wiki/Abadar if anything it would be more so as he is the guardian of the vault that holds perfect examples of a paladin.

"Abadar and his faithful hold creatures that symbolize law and perfection in high regard"

*Facepalm*

Nothing goes over his head. His reflexes are too quick.

4/5

please do a search of existing thread topics before posting duplicates. Preston Hudson quoted applicable text to this topic.

FAQ posted 8/2013 wrote:

Pathfinder FAQ Link Does casting evil spells cause an alignment infraction?

Casting an evil spell is not an alignment infraction in and of itself, as long as it doesn't violate any codes, tenents of faith, or other such issues. Committing an evil act outside of casting the spell, such as using an evil spell to torture an innocent NPC for information or the like is an alignment infraction. For example: using infernal healing to heal party members is not an evil act.

So it depends on how the GM minces it and what codes, tenents of faith, etc your character ascribes to... I'd write them down on your character sheet or chronicle when you became a Paladin and show them to the GM if there are any issues (rather than be a generic Paladin). If you don't like the answer (when you asked before the game started) switch tables or work around the issue (like hand your wand to the arcane caster or rogue). Much of the angst and hand-wringing over this kind of topic can be resolved before the game starts... just ask your GM at the table.

5/5 5/55/55/5

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A Dead Horse wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:

A paladin is a holy warrior embodying the highest ideals of humanity.

They do NOT sell their souls to have a higher profit margin by lowering the cost of healing.

What if I'm a paladin of Abadar?

Then you fall for not leasing your soul and tying the rate to the libor for higher profit margins.

4/5

in a practical follow up I'd like to say that a Wand of Infernal Healing is a poor choice for a fighter type (that's you Mr. Paladin)... rate of recovery is more important as you will generally be in combat when you need healing and 2-9 is better than 1 point per round.

If you are really concerned about party healing get 2 wands for 4 prestige; Wand of Cure Light Wounds 1@1 and Wand of Infernal Healing 1@1. Hand the WoIH to your arcane caster or rogue type with UMD. Now 2 or more people in the party can heal!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Thanks for the input everyone.

Liberty's Edge Venture-Agent, Online

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Stephen Ross wrote:
...work around the issue (like hand your wand to the arcane caster or rogue).

I'm not saying a wand of Infernal Healing is something that would cause a paladin to have issues at my tables, but the idea that I can simply have someone else do something I find sketchy on my behalf just doesn't fly.

To me that's like saying, "my code prevents me from lying, therefore I'd like you to tell the lie for me." That doesn't absolve you from the consequences of the action. In fact if you consider something wrong, convincing others to do wrong is worse, you are corrupting them.

If casting Infernal Healing on yourself requires atonement than knowingly allowing someone else to cast it on you would also require atonement at my tables.

4/5

Suppose you use an Infernal healing wand on an infiltration mission just so you don't radiate a good aura and cause the mission to fail from your being discovered? (Yes, I know undetectable alignment also hides your aura, but I could see an active evil aura being useful to get past a sigil that triggers for anything not evil.)

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

I think it would depend on the paladin's specific code (some forbid deception I believe) and how important the mission is and whether there is any other way.

The Exchange 5/5

RealAlchemy wrote:
Suppose you use an Infernal healing wand on an infiltration mission just so you don't radiate a good aura and cause the mission to fail from your being discovered? (Yes, I know undetectable alignment also hides your aura, but I could see an active evil aura being useful to get past a sigil that triggers for anything not evil.)

Why would this mask her L/G aura? It just gives her an E aura too.

She would detect as both,right?

The Exchange 5/5

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FLite wrote:
I think it would depend on the paladin's specific code (some forbid deception I believe) and how important the mission is and whether there is any other way.

And the Judge. Some rule that a paladin can't even use bluff.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

nosig wrote:
RealAlchemy wrote:
Suppose you use an Infernal healing wand on an infiltration mission just so you don't radiate a good aura and cause the mission to fail from your being discovered? (Yes, I know undetectable alignment also hides your aura, but I could see an active evil aura being useful to get past a sigil that triggers for anything not evil.)

Why would this mask her L/G aura? It just gives her an E aura too.

She would detect as both,right?

I would think so. But you could combine infernal healing with undetectable alignment to appear NE.

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