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I had concerns about the Top 100 list last year, when I was host and it was essentially my call.
This year we'll be making a list that shows items numbers 37 (just short of the last alternate slot) through 100, though they won't be presented in ranked order (you'll know if an item was *somewhere* between #37 and #100, but not exactly what number it is).
Combined with the fact that the round 1 voting is all fan votes this year, that handles my concerns from last year, so I can happily provide the info.
37... through 11? Typo? :P
Owen, Thanks for producing a top 100 list this year.
This year it is my goal to make makeable progress over last year. My thoughts are the sort to use this contest as a measuring stick of my progress as a Designer.
My goal for this year was to make it to the top 100. Given that the top 100 may not have been a thing, the other goal was to make it onto someone's Keep list.
Given the Top 100 is going to be a list, this year. I won't be pestering people about keep lists. And instead, will use the top 100, and the Critique thread as my sounding board, and measuring stick for progress.
I think I was well within the ballpark on my item's pricing, but I regret not being able to nail it down precisely.
I regret excising the 5 or 6 descriptive words that would brought greater focus on the item's intent. I was easily under word count, but I was too keen on making it as lean as possible.
I regret not workshopping my item and only showing it to two people before entry, one of which was Template Fu. The other person offered genius feedback, but I regret not seeking more feedback.
And in the exceedingly unlikely event my item survives into the Top 32 or as an alternate, I might very well regret living in SW FL while trying to perfect my Round 2 map.
Marathon Voter Season 9
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I think I was well within the ballpark on my item's pricing, but I regret not being able to nail it down precisely.
I regret excising the 5 or 6 descriptive words that would brought greater focus on the item's intent. I was easily under word count, but I was too keen on making it as lean as possible.
I regret not workshopping my item and only showing it to two people before entry, one of which was Template Fu. The other person offered genius feedback, but I regret not seeking more feedback.
And in the exceedingly unlikely event my item survives into the Top 32 or as an alternate, I might very well regret living in SW FL while trying to perfect my Round 2 map.
I don't understand why you need to pass round 1 to regret living in Florida.
Just saw my item... and its got a silly formatting issue that could've been fixed by paying close attention to the preview.
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Welcome to the club, Zertz. :)
Dedicated Voter Season 8, Marathon Voter Season 9
aka Jayson MF Kip
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I regret waiting until the last minute to decide that my first idea was really bad (it was- -couldn't find a natural way to say what it does...).
As a result, upon seeing it for the first time, the formatting on mine is sub-par.
I hereby apply to join "the club."
I will regret signing the papers to buying a house in the middle of the voting round if I end up in Top 32 and can't find the time to continue on.
I will regret signing the papers to buying a house in the middle of the voting round if I end up in Top 32 and can't find the time to continue on.
I don't think that's much to regret. Congratulations on the house.... and I hope your entry goes well, too.
If "I don't have time to close on the house AND play with the RPG SS" is the worst problem you have all month.... well, I hope your wallet won't fold properly for all the twenties and you are having trouble finding garage space for the third Bentley.
RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16
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Marathon Voter Season 6, Marathon Voter Season 7, Marathon Voter Season 8, Dedicated Voter Season 9
aka Arkos
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I will regret signing the papers to buying a house in the middle of the voting round if I end up in Top 32 and can't find the time to continue on.On the plus side, if you make the Top 32 and can't find time to continue on, you get the opportunity to make one of the alternates very happy.
As one of those alternates who got the call, I'd call it 50% happy, 50% complete and totally stressful horror insomnia freakout.
Star Voter Season 9
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I regret wasting time on Voting and not seeing 1 item I am interested in using in my Game.
Only Item I use in My Game in my World is the Item I submitted and was Culled...
One of the Reason I rarely buy products...waste of Money.
My Campaign started with The Dragon's Demand...No Pull out Map
was Gonna go to "Tears of Bitter Manor" but scraped that after studying it closely. Managed to think of ways to incorporate some of the Theme...My PCs are the newly recruited Pathfinder members replacing the "retiring Pathfinders" but got a neat pull out Map, but I can use the Card Deck Anytime anywhere so that was cool item to pick up.
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I regret wasting time on Voting and not seeing 1 item I am interested in using in my Game.
Truly? Really, truly? Because I consider myself fairly discerning and I've seen a solid 10-15 items I would enjoy having access to as a player and as a GM, and 3 or 4 that I'm actively designing encounters around, now.
Gamers and designers more experienced than me, like Mikko Kallio and multiple other veterans of this contest, have seen items they personally love and have praised.
Either 1) your standards are inhumanly high; 2) your standards are just at a great remove from the community at large (you want different things); or 3) you apparently became very quickly disillusioned with voting when it failed to be the shopping trip for cool items that you wanted it to be.
Yes, sure, there's a lot of dreck. 90% of everything is crap, as a general rule, but nobody made you vote, bro.
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Star Voter Season 9
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It was not a shopping Trip for me. I have been With Pathfinder since Day 1...I have been involved since the very first Playtest.
Been with Paizo since the Days of Dragon and Dungeon Magazines Issue 1
I repeatedly saw the same things. Before the first Cull I saw 4 items 20 times each and after the first Cull I had same item pop up on the 19th Voting. Interestingly I entered an Armorand I only saw 1 other Armor in my Voting.
Nothing Jumped out at me.
Marathon Voter Season 9
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I regret wasting time on Voting and not seeing 1 item I am interested in using in my Game.
Only Item I use in My Game in my World is the Item I submitted and was Culled...
You do realize that sounds like you are saying "My item was only good item in the contest, all other items sucked"? Seriously, thats rude.
Just about to hit 900 votes, I have 11 strong keeps, and 17 what I call "possibles" still in the game.
It takes dedication but there are some gems. This is not even counting the perfectly fine items that would fit in quite a few tables.
You will see things repeatedly, and if you do not like voting do not, but for me at least it has been a rewarding and fun experience.
I regret not being able to vote for some culled items as much as I'd have liked to.
I think I might start regretting voting for my own item instead of just skipping. There have been a couple of times where I've thought it's been close, but I voted for my own item when most other people would have voted the reverse. It's tough to be fair when you're involved, and particularly in these late stages I want to be as fair as I possibly can. Unless I think an item is particularly bad, I think I will have to start skipping on voting for myself.
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Star Voter Season 9
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You do realize that sounds like you are saying "My item was only good item in the contest, all other items sucked"? Seriously, thats rude.I regret wasting time on Voting and not seeing 1 item I am interested in using in my Game.
Only Item I use in My Game in my World is the Item I submitted and was Culled...
No that is what your saying not what I am saying.
I am saying I have not seen Items I want to use in my Campaign.There is not one item that my Character must have and definately nothing that I would be willing to spend money on later. I am saying none of those items inspired me to want to buy a future product...Now I will make my decision based on all the entries, not the first and only entry I have seen.
I am sure since my Item got culled and did not make it to the end, people think my Item Sucks and did not want to use it in their Games..I suspect mine was to simple..It did not grant multiple feats and bypass to many rules all at one time. Could my item be used easily by any class yes...Would it fit into 99% of people PC concepts. Nope.
Since I can't say what my item was and There is no official ruling on exactly how many times my item was seen I don't know what people saw wrong with it...Did every item get seen 1000 Times each before the first Cull...Obviously not because I saw Some items over and Over...And I olny saw 1 Armor during my voting...So did my item only get seen 10 times and get 10 No Vote, 10 Equal Votes, or 10 Better Vote or Combination of such Votes and then get Compared to an Item seen 1000 Time and by passed by 11 Up votes out of those 1000 times seen.
That's not how the system works, it constructs beat paths. It doesn't just count the pure amount of upvotes.
Be sure to check in for the Critique My Item thread to get feedback, it'll probably go live a few days after the Top 32 reveal.
I think you are still not understanding the system. I'll look up the post that explains it, unless someone has a link handy.
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I think you are still not understanding the system. I'll look up the post that explains it, unless someone has a link handy.
we're using a modified version of the Schulze Method. And the most important thing is the number of voters who prefer A to B or A to C or B to C; whether you personally prefer A to B to C isn't a factor.
Since I can't say what my item was and There is no official ruling on exactly how many times my item was seen I don't know what people saw wrong with it...Did every item get seen 1000 Times each before the first Cull...Obviously not because I saw Some items over and Over...And I olny saw 1 Armor during my voting...So did my item only get seen 10 times and get 10 No Vote, 10 Equal Votes, or 10 Better Vote or Combination of such Votes and then get Compared to an Item seen 1000 Time and by passed by 11 Up votes out of those 1000 times seen.
An item that was seen 1000 times and passed by 11 up votes would be very quickly culled, because it was downgraded 989 times. The voting method Paizo claims to use (obviously I've not seen their code to confirm it's actually used) ranks each item based on how many times it wins compared with how many times it loses. And, more accurately, it looks at each pair of items (so "the Sword of Awesome beat the Ring of Lameness twenty-two times and lost three times, for a net of +19 [out of 25] for that pair").
It's not a question of how many times an item was voted upon, but a question of the percentage of people who like that item. An item that was seen a hundred times and always liked is in a much stronger position than an item that was seen a thousand times and liked only 500, which in turn is in an even stronger position than an item seen ten thousand times and liked only 750 times.
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Star Voter Season 9
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your right I don't
I hate Math and I don't trust it...so Matter how you explain it...
Unless You can prove that My Item was seen as many times as Item A,B,C I will continue to Say the Voting is Biased and Unfair but Life goes on...I will continue to play Pathfinder most likely with Homebrewed Scenarios and Items... :) except (flip Mats, Item Cards, Tokens :) Does not mean I won't support PAIZO..
I have never Looked at 4 or 5E versions of the Original system That I started Gaming with in 1978....I choose Pathfinder and that is What I will play till the Day I die...And No I won't jump on the Bandwagon for a 2E Version either..Version 1 is good enough for this 50 year old..I like it simple.
If I see a product that catches my eye I may pick it up...I started my Campaign with The Dragon's Demand and that was a previous Winner wasn't it...bit of an Irony..I never even looked at Previous Contests entries and I started with a Winner from a Previous contest. I may have to go back and look at their entries and see if I would have been inspired to have purchased it based on the entries. I also picked a Previous winner "Tears at Bitter Manor" but instead decided I want to expand off of the Dragon's Demand and Explore the return of Dragons and use Nazilli Dragon Slayers in my Campaign..My PCs were Made Knights of Taldor after saving the Town and The Ghost of Lady Tulia has procliamed them Dragon Slayers of Nazilli and they will be heading off to restore the Ruins of Nazilli when My Campaign rotation comes around again..
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I hate Math and I don't trust it...so Matter how you explain it...
Unless You can prove that My Item was seen as many times as Item A,B,C I will continue to Say the Voting is Biased and Unfair
Shrug. I can't stop you from saying that,... but the whole point of percentage-based voting is that items don't need to be seen the same number of times for the vote to be fair.
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Star Voter Season 9
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It's not a question of how many times an item was voted upon, but a question of the percentage of people who like that item.
So All items that received the same percentage advance in all Rounds?
100% items first followed by 99% items ...etc..So An Item seen 1 time and got a single 100% up vote move along equally with an item that was seen 100 times and got 100 Up votes?
..or was it knocked out buy an item that was seen 1000 time and got 0nly 25% up votes because it received 250 Up votes vs. the 1 up vote
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Star Voter Season 9
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Shrug. I can't stop you from saying that,... but the whole point of percentage-based voting is that items don't need to be seen the same number of times for the vote to be fair.
Can you prove that every Item was seen the same percentage of time?
Were other people seeing my item 12 or more times before each cull?
It's not a question of how many times an item was voted upon, but a question of the percentage of people who like that item.
So All items that received the same percentage advance in all Rounds?
100% items first followed by 99% items ...etc..
No, but that's not a bad oversimplification. Well, not a horrendously bad oversimplification, and much closer than a simple "more upvotes == not culled."
So An Item seen 1 time and got a single 100% up vote move along equally with an item that was seen 100 times and got 100 Up votes?..or was it knocked out buy an item that was seen 1000 time and got 0nly 25% up votes because it received 250 Up votes vs. the 1 up vote
Well, in practical terms, if an item had only been seen once, there wouldn't be enough data to actually have a meaningful confidence interval around the 100%. And the Paizo geeks are smart enough to be aware of that, so I assume that they made sure they had sufficient sample sizes that the measurements are meaningful. Furthermore, since the Shultze method relies on pairwise rankings, you want every item to have been compared to every other item, so I strongly suspect that every item was seen at least 687 times (in order to make sure that there are no holes in the matrix). As I said, I've not seen Paizo's code, so I can't confirm they've done it that way, but the back room boys are actually very good at their jobs.
However, in answer to the question that I think you considered the important one -- an item that was seen 687 times and was preferred to every item in the contest would, in fact, be kept in preference to an item that was seen 6870 times (ten times per item) and recieved five up-votes and five down-votes against each item.
The absolute number of up-votes is meaningless under Shultze voting; what is important is the number of up-votes compared with the number of down-votes. An item seen 1000 times that was up-voted only 250 times [and down-voted 750 times] would probably be one of the "first up against the wall when the revolution comes." Such an item wouldn't knock anything out.
Can you prove that every Item was seen the same percentage of time?
Shrug. I can't stop you from saying that,... but the whole point of percentage-based voting is that items don't need to be seen the same number of times for the vote to be fair.
I don't need to, because that doesn't really matter.
Were other people seeing my item 12 or more times before each cull?
I'd be rather surprised if it was seen less than 700 times, since they need to fill out the matrix.
(And if you check the FAQ, it says "Items are presented to voters in random pairs, biased toward items which have been viewed the least. Every item will be voted on before any item is selected for voting again. We'll use the votes to determine the most popular items, and present those to the judges for ranking." So they're pretty good about biasing to make sure that items are seen roughly the same number of times, at least until the culls happen.)
Shrug. I can't stop you from saying that,... but the whole point of percentage-based voting is that items don't need to be seen the same number of times for the vote to be fair.Can you prove that every Item was seen the same percentage of time?
Were other people seeing my item 12 or more times before each cull?
Paizo is the only one with that information.
Paizo decided to use this method of sorting.
Paizo decides when the culls happen.
Paizo decides how many are culled.
So the question is do you trust Paizo or not?
If not you have already made up your mind because even if Paizo gave you complete access to all data and it showed it was fair, you could easily simply object with "this data is falsified" based on the lack of trust.
On the other hand if you trust them then Paizo employees with the position to make decisions have said the method is fair and they are making sure that items get enough votes before the cull.
So which is it?
Do you trust them and accept the method as fair?
or
Do you not trust them and in that case any discourse is a waste of time as no one can prove a negative specifically "Prove Paizo did not lie about setting up the contest in good faith."?
I am sure since my Item got culled and did not make it to the end, people think my Item Sucks and did not want to use it in their Games..
I never voted on an item according to this merit. The items I voted for were not necessarily items I thought deserved to be in the Top 32. Items I did not vote for were not necessarily items that I thought sucked. I never went on the criteria of "Would I use this in my home game" because an item that enhances my home game is not necessarily an item that deserved to be in the running. Spell in a Can items can be contribute to the game wonderfully. However the reason they get down voted (more than they otherwise would be) is they aren't necessarily innovative. Not making it to the top <insert threshold here> does not mean people thought your item sucked. It means the vast majority felt it wasn't as impressive as the other items it was placed against. An impressive item, however, could very well be one that detracts from my game.
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I hate Math and I don't trust it...so Matter how you explain it...
Unless You can prove that My Item was seen as many times as Item A,B,C I will continue to Say the Voting is Biased and Unfair but Life goes on...
Can you prove that every Item was seen the same percentage of time?
Were other people seeing my item 12 or more times before each cull?
These statements tells me everything I need to know about you as a designer. Game design involves math and for the record few things are more trustworthy then math.
You've been offered an explanation of the math but demand proof that will never be furnished. To be blunt you're not entitled to that data or any further explanation then you're received. No one needs to prove anything to you. If you need to feel the contest is biased in order to sleep well after your baby got culled you go right on ahead and believe that, it won't make you any better at this.
The world owes none of us anything, we get things because we work for them.
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Star Voter Season 9
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I hate Math and I don't trust it...so Matter how you explain it...
Unless You can prove that My Item was seen as many times as Item A,B,C I will continue to Say the Voting is Biased and Unfair but Life goes on..
I'll tell you what, when the critique my item thread comes out in a few days go ahead and post your item; you will get completely unbiased raw feedback. Honestly, I'm curious about the wonder you produced that only outright cheating could have prevented you from getting to the Top 32.
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Star Voter Season 9
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I never accussed anyone of Cheating..a Mathematical Unbalanced way to determine a winner is not Outright cheating...Unfair Yes but Not Cheating. I never said cheating is what caused my item to not get selected after 2 Cull. I never really expected my item to win #1 spot.
Sure Unofficial People have offered an explanation on how it was suppose to Work but until I see that the horse is really before the cart I ain't buying it...
This why I never usually enter contest like this..I ain't interested in it. If I wanted to publish an Adventure, I can do what others are doing..Write it..Kickstart it...Sell it on my Own..Guess what It Works. I can design Flip Mats and sell for even 25 cents a piece in PDF format and make money on it. Took me about 2 Hours to recreate the Ossuary Map from The Godsmouth Heresey..Even if I thought my time was worth $20 dollars per hour..I could easily have taken donations to make that Money but I turned it down. I don't do that. All my creations are credited to the original Cartographers and I try and adhere to their Original Maps unless I have absolutely have change things because of my Skills with Campaign Cartographer. If I was looking to just win and make money I would not be doing Maps for free and giving them away and sharing with Paizo Fans..I would not be offering to do them for free for Paizo so they can provide them for their Fans. This contest is not about becoming the greatest Fanatsy designer since Gary and Arn for me. It was about giving back to a Game I love.
I never accussed anyone of Cheating..a Mathematical Unbalanced way to determine a winner is not Outright cheating...Unfair Yes but Not Cheating. I never said cheating is what caused my item to not get selected after 2 Cull. I never really expected my item to win #1 spot.
Sure Unofficial People have offered an explanation on how it was suppose to Work but until I see that the horse is really before the cart I ain't buying it...
This why I never usually enter contest like this..I ain't interested in it. If I wanted to publish an Adventure, I can do what others are doing..Write it..Kickstart it...Sell it on my Own..Guess what It Works. I can design Flip Mats and sell for even 25 cents a piece in PDF format and make money on it. Took me about 2 Hours to recreate the Ossuary Map from The Godsmouth Heresey..Even if I thought my time was worth $20 dollars per hour..I could easily have taken donations to make that Money but I turned it down. I don't do that. All my creations are credited to the original Cartographers and I try and adhere to their Original Maps unless I have absolutely have change things because of my Skills with Campaign Cartographer. If I was looking to just win and make money I would not be doing Maps for free and giving them away and sharing with Paizo Fans..I would not be offering to do them for free for Paizo so they can provide them for their Fans. This contest is not about becoming the greatest Fanatsy designer since Gary and Arn for me. It was about giving back to a Game I love.
I never said a thing about cheating and neither as far as I can see did you. However you are accusing the method of being unfair, while Paizo employees have said it is fair and that they only perform culls after all items get an acceptable level of votes.
So again, all smoke and mirrors aside.
Do you trust Paizo on their statements that the contest is fair? (please answer yes or no)
or
Do you believe they were lying and the contest is unfair?
(please answer yes or no)
Links:
Vic Wertz is a Paizo employee btw as is Sara Marie.
we're using a modified version of the Schulze Method. And the most important thing is the number of voters who prefer A to B or A to C or B to C; whether you personally prefer A to B to C isn't a factor.
So, if we give y'all a schedule of the culls, then there's a high chance that a bunch of people will stop voting until after the culls. But if people do that, we won't have enough votes to properly cull the entries. So, the more people we have voting and the more votes cast the more timely and accurate we can be with paring the entries down. Go tell your friends to come and vote!
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This has wondered pretty far from regrets here. Maybe it would be better to take this elsewhere?
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a Mathematical Unbalanced way to determine a winner is not Outright cheating...Unfair Yes but Not Cheating.
If I was looking to just win and make money I would not be doing Maps for free and giving them away and sharing with Paizo Fans..I would not be offering to do them for free for Paizo so they can provide them for their Fans.
This contest is not about becoming the greatest Fanatsy designer since Gary and Arn for me. It was about giving back to a Game I love.
They aren't going to share the code/math/algorithm for a variety of reasons that includes keeping it fair and secure. As someone who works in the field of data security let me just say there's good reasons not to expose that code.
As to official, Owen K Stevens popped in and gave you the links and it doesn't get much more official then that.
I'm going to tell you a secret though. You're right it's not fair. Fair is a foolish expectation. I personally know of at least 40-50 contestants that are competing that are freelancing already in the 3PP world. I know several competitors that have toiled year after year to perfect the template and mechanics of the contest that haven't quite gotten called to the big show yet. WE workshop with each other to throughout the year. Horsemen, Freelance forge, Flying Pincushion, Blazing 9 we work and prepare for this all year.
Nothing worth competing for is fair. There's always someone better, to beat them you actually have to have enough passion to work at it and enough humility to let people criticize your work and accept their feedback. Here's another secret, if you love game design it won't be work.
It's awesome you do maps, which I was better at them. Good on you for giving that to the fans. But if you really want to be a solid citizen maybe don't call everyone's work crap, accuse the contest of being mathematically unfair, and then despite being offered the same info everyone else has accepted continue to insinuate that the contest is unfair.
Here's a really big hole in your belief the contest isn't fair... Paizo give the winner work. Why in the hell would they not want the best possible people to work for them? The contest is as fair as it can be, live with it.
I'll regret wasting my time if he doesn't understand and learn from this... back to regrets.
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I regret reading most of that last exchange.