Bring back Divine Metamagic


Homebrew and House Rules

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Now before anyone goes ape, I'm not suggesting an exact duplicate of the 3.5 version!

However, I do genuinely think that with some tweaks it could solve 3 inter-related problem areas:

1) The general terribleness of channeling

2) The general boredom/blandness/underpowered nature of cleric class abilities

3) Paizo reluctance to do a decent cleric archetype! ;)

For starters some ideas for feat pre-requisites to keep it harder to access:

1) WIS at least 18
2) 5 skill ranks religion
3) Domain, aura and channel class features
4) Ability to cast 4th level divine spells
5) 5 skill ranks spellcraft

The general gist is that your channel dice are converted into DMM points, so... eg) 6D6 channel = approx 20 points. This is determined afresh each day. Obviously the ability replaces regular channeling.

You could then have at list of abilities that could be activated as a swift action.... differing abilities costing differing numbers of points..

Thoughts??

Silver Crusade Contributor

I think you might want to check out the Bless Equipment feats from Undead Slayer's Handbook.


...Maybe explain what Divine Metamagic did first?

Silver Crusade Contributor

Rynjin wrote:
...Maybe explain what Divine Metamagic did first?

3.5 feat. Let you burn uses of turn undead for free metamagic, frequently well beyond your ability to cast.

Combine with 3.5 Persistent Spell (+6 levels, duration becomes 24 hrs.) and you had a recipe for perma-buffed clerics.


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Well that's blatantly broken.

Got any details on your new idea beyond "Points that can be spent", SS?

Free metamagic just for burning your crappy Channel, no matter the conversion rate is way too good of a trade.


Aren't clerics plenty powerful enough even with all of those wasted channel divinities not doing anything?


Even though channel isn't very good, the cleric class is incredibly strong. Even if you and others may find it boring. It's full 9th level spell caster with 3/4 BAB and medium armor. Now, their spell list isn't very offensive, but they're good at buffing and removing conditions. And they do it well.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32

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Ah, DMM. The path to getting always-on divine favor as early as level 1, and by level 7 getting always-on divine power.

Honestly, metamagic reducers in general seem to be a path to overpowered casters. Between metamagic rods and the couple of ways we have to reduce metamagic, there are already a tremendous number of ways to abuse spells. I'd be really hesitant to recommend more ways to do so.


ryric wrote:

Ah, DMM. The path to getting always-on divine favor as early as level 1, and by level 7 getting always-on divine power.

Honestly, metamagic reducers in general seem to be a path to overpowered casters. Between metamagic rods and the couple of ways we have to reduce metamagic, there are already a tremendous number of ways to abuse spells. I'd be really hesitant to recommend more ways to do so.

I completely agree, but I wasnt so much thinking about metamagic reducers more a variety of buff/debuff options.


The Oracle might be OP, but less than the Cleric and usually plays a different role as its spellcasting is worse (and the Fort save) and compensates with class features


I agree that you're wrong, the cleric spell list being worse on a spontaneous caster is a fact.


Kalindlara wrote:
I think you might want to check out the Bless Equipment feats from Undead Slayer's Handbook.

They are pretty dire..... multiple uses of channels for fairly minor boons to weapons/armour only and for durations that would only start to be useful around 9-10th level

Thanks....I think this proves my point!


Paizo nerfing stuff means almost nothing. They keep bashing at martials but leave the CRB full casters mostly untouched.

Sczarni RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

Silver Surfer wrote:
3) Paizo reluctance to do a decent cleric archetype! ;)

Only thing I agree with.

Scarab Sages

Thomas LeBlanc wrote:
Silver Surfer wrote:
3) Paizo reluctance to do a decent cleric archetype! ;)
Only thing I agree with.

Evangelist says hi.


Imbicatus wrote:


Evangelist says hi.

Thats a fair call sir... along with the recent Herald Caller (but even that came from a splat I believe)

But overall I stand by my general view regarding clerics and Paizo.

I genuinely think DMM could be made into something balanced and interesting... certainly better than the current dump stat and dump ability that is the current channeling!


Why is channeling "bad"? the only horrible channeling I can think of is on anything which Paizo gives reduced channeling... it seems to me that channeling is the first combat useful AoE attack with decent damage... given freely without utilizing spell slots.

it's "gimped" channeling that's worthless...

Grand Lodge

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This thread belongs in the Homebrew/houserule section imo.


The problem with Cleric archetypes is that the Cleric has very few class features to swap, basically they only have Domains and Channel

Scarab Sages

Entryhazard wrote:
The problem with Cleric archetypes is that the Cleric has very few class features to swap, basically they only have Domains and Channel

Well, they did a decent job with the Oracle. ;)


Imbicatus wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
The problem with Cleric archetypes is that the Cleric has very few class features to swap, basically they only have Domains and Channel
Well, they did a decent job with the Oracle. ;)

I cannot tell if you're saying that the Oracle has good archetypes, in which case is not surprising as the oracle has a curse and a class feature every two levels, or if it is a joke about the oracle being a Cleric Archetype.

In that case I should say they learned from the Wizard Archetype called Sorcerer.

Scarab Sages

Sorry, I was joking that the Oracle was an archetype of Cleric.


Summoner's Handbook has a great Cleric archetype, particularly for NG, CN, LN, and NE. You get spontaneous summoning alongside your spontaneous healing, along with some other goodies.


Spontaneous casters get more non-casting goodies. Is this a balance sort of thing?


My Self wrote:
Spontaneous casters get more non-casting goodies. Is this a balance sort of thing?

Yes, more often than not spontaneous casting is inferior to prepared casting and the gap can become more or less wide depending on the class spell list, and thus spontaneous casters get extra class features to compensate.


Tormad wrote:
This thread belongs in the Homebrew/houserule section imo.

No because this is a genuine (albeit probably futile) suggestion for a feat to help with the core cleric


Entryhazard wrote:
The problem with Cleric archetypes is that the Cleric has very few class features to swap, basically they only have Domains and Channel

Agreed.... I've said previously I believe the Cleric is an inherently poor design and thus archetypes suffer the burden...

3.5 for all of its issues offered a cleric with options.

PF doesnt even really have great PRC for the cleric

Scarab Sages

Silver Surfer wrote:


PF doesnt even really have great PRC for the cleric

PF doesnt even really have great PRC for anybody.

PRCs are almost always worse than staying in a pure class. You never get FCBs for PRCs, and you lose all class feature growth beyond simple spell progression. They can grant some cool abilities to compensate, but those are not going to be as powerful as what you gave up.

Other than the Evangelist PRC, but that is just your base class +.


I think half-elves can get FCB for PrCs


Entryhazard wrote:
I think half-elves can get FCB for PrCs

Nope, no fcb for prc, in the basic rules for fcb in crb.


IIRC there's a feat that allows Half-Elves to consider all the classes as favored

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber

Just to make sure, you are aware that clerics can already use metamagic feats, yes?

Scarab Sages

Metamagic without cost is a terrible thing. Metamagic Rods are broken, Sacred Geometry is broken, and any form of this feat would be broken.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Metamagic Rods are broken. They are powerful, but still limited in use, require a hand to use, and the good ones cost a good chunk of gold.

Sacred Geometry is absolutely broken, though. Even if the results were more tame than the free metamagic, the implementation is atrocious for keeping the game flowing quickly.

Scarab Sages

ZZTRaider wrote:

I don't know if I'd go so far as to say Metamagic Rods are broken. They are powerful, but still limited in use, require a hand to use, and the good ones cost a good chunk of gold.

Lesser Rod of Toppling with Magic Missle: 3000 gold to trip five creature per round.

Lesser Rod of Persistent: How many absolutely devastating third level or lower save or sucks are there? This makes them all much more deadly without raising the spell level for a mere 9000 gold.
Lesser Rod of Dazing: This is more expensive at 14,000gp. It's also capable of making any damage dealing spell the most effective crowd control in the game. Dazing Thorny Entanglement is an encounter ender.


Silver Surfer wrote:
Entryhazard wrote:
I agree that you're wrong, the cleric spell list being worse on a spontaneous caster is a fact.

Show me where I said it wasnt... but thats not really the prob with Oracles. Like I said .... the errating PROVES there were probs.

Anyway... talk away to yourself if it makes you feel better.. everyone has opinions. But I'm not here to go over previously trod ground. Your choice..

So by this logic, every class with parry was OP... crane wing was OP, dex to damage is apparently op....


TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just to make sure, you are aware that clerics can already use metamagic feats, yes?

Re-read my posts.... I have already stated that I wouldnt use DMM for metamagic purposes


Silver Surfer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just to make sure, you are aware that clerics can already use metamagic feats, yes?
Re-read my posts.... I have already stated that I wouldnt use DMM for metamagic purposes

In which case, maybe you could lay out some specific examples of what you'd like to see. Actual powers with point costs.

This sounds more like an actual point based power system for clerics (along the lines of ki for monks or arcana for magi) than a simple feat.

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure, Rulebook Subscriber
Silver Surfer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just to make sure, you are aware that clerics can already use metamagic feats, yes?
Re-read my posts.... I have already stated that I wouldnt use DMM for metamagic purposes

Then why call it Divine MetaMagic? It seems to mislead from your purpose.


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Silver Surfer wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Just to make sure, you are aware that clerics can already use metamagic feats, yes?
Re-read my posts.... I have already stated that I wouldnt use DMM for metamagic purposes

You really need to clean up your term use.

DMM is literally short for "Divine Metamagic". How one uses Divine Metamagic *not* for Divine Metamagic is beyond me. If you mean you want new abilities that consume Channel uses, then just *say* so. Don't confuse everyone with a term that means the opposite of what you want it to mean (Divine Metamagic, but...not for metamagic...what???).


My problem with the Cleric is not that it is bad. But that it is boring and lacking in flavor. Look at the new occult classes there class abilities are overflowing with flavor and are interesting. Even the Oracle and Shaman have flavorful and fun class abilities.


No.

Enjoy your free healing and unlimited cleric spell access PLUS domain powers.


Silver Surfer wrote:
1) The general terribleness of channeling

I always thought channeling was pretty sweet. Area healing or area damage to undead... Great! It is a very elegant solution to the weirdness of turn undead, and the know problem of players hating to have to use spells for healing.

Silver Surfer wrote:
2) The general boredom/blandness/underpowered nature of cleric class abilities

Clerics get nine levels of spells, extra domain spells often off arcane lists, and AMAZING things like touch of luck, dimension step, aura of destruction, etc. Oh yeah, and 3/4 BAB, medium armor, access to almost any weapon through race/deity, etc. What is bland boring or underpowered again?

Silver Surfer wrote:
3) Paizo reluctance to do a decent cleric archetype! ;)

Since clerics are easily one of the most powerful and customizeable classes in the game, archetypes are generally going to be a step down, rather then a step up. But I'm not up on all the archtype options these days, so I'll take your word for it.


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Full casters don't get to complain about being weak lol.

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