Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox


Advice


3 people marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Well, this is a surprise. Dirty Tactics Toolbox has a very interesting feat that I think is a great addition to Pathfinder. I'll transcribe it here so that we can actually discuss it.

Dirty Fighting (Combat) wrote:


You can take advantage of a distracted foe.
Benefit: When you attempt a combat maneuver check against a foe you are flanking, you can forgo the +2 bonus on your attack roll for flanking to instead have the combat maneuver not provoke an attack of opportunity. If you have a feat or ability that allows you to attempt the combat maneuver without provoking an attack of opportunity, you can instead increase the bonus on your attack roll for flanking to +4 for the combat maneuver check.
Special: This feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites of the various improved combat maneuver feats, as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

What builds does this help out? Is disarming a viable thing to do now? Is it still not worth building full disarm builds? Does this open up additional classes to grappling?

Or does the fact that you still have to take 1 feat still overshadow the other feat/ability score taxes on combat maneuvers?

I will also point out that this book introduced feats that have things like

Quote:
Prerequisities: Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, Improved Grapple, Improved Unarmed Strike, base attack bonus +6.

That's a lot of stuff we just avoided by taking one feat as a barbarian who doesn't want Dex or Int.

Scarab Sages

6 people marked this as a favorite.

This feat means I'll never have to take combat expertise again. It's actually useful on it's own by allowing outflank for maneuvers without being a teamwork feat. It also allows you to attempt any maneuver you like without improved x without fear of an AoO. It opens a lot of tactics, especially if you also have gang up.

It also means I don't need to take a level in brawler if I want to use maneuvers and have less than Int 13.

This feat alone is worth buying the book.

Scarab Sages

2 people marked this as a favorite.

Oh yes, and another benefit: This will allow you to take style feats without Improved Unarmed Strike. Some styles are weapon agnostic. This is very nice too.


This is, um, I want to say the 5th time in the past year that something has been introduced that attempts to fish the turd that is Combat Expertise out of the punchbowl.

(Hold on, let me count. Brawler, Swashbuckler, Mesmerist, Stamina rules from Unchained, now this feat. So yeah, at least 5.)

Isn't it time to tackle this in a more direct manner, and just do something about the feat itself? It's been 15 years now, none of us are likely to be too broken up if CExp gets taken out back and given the Ol' Yeller treatment.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The fact that it's been around for 15 years I think is a reason to NOT get rid of combat expertise. Combat Expertise as a feat is fine to keep. Combat expertise as a feat tax is stupid. I like that we have an alternative for it that works for anyone now.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Imbicatus wrote:
Oh yes, and another benefit: This will allow you to take style feats without Improved Unarmed Strike. Some styles are weapon agnostic. This is very nice too.

I don't think this actually helps with that. The text is very clear that it only meets those prerequisites for Improved Maneuver feats and feats that require the Improved Maneuver feats.

Looking over the list of style feats, I'm not seeing much that qualifies.

Earth Child Topple and Earth Child Binder qualify, but the base Earth Child Style itself does not.
Grabbing Style works.
Kraken Style works.
Pummeling Bully works, but not the base Pummeling Style.
Snapping Turtle Clutch and Snapping Turtle Shell work, but not the base Snapping Turtle Style.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Castarr4 wrote:
The fact that it's been around for 15 years I think is a reason to NOT get rid of combat expertise. Combat Expertise as a feat is fine to keep. Combat expertise as a feat tax is stupid. I like that we have an alternative for it that works for anyone now.

Okay fine, calling for its elimination was a bit hyperbolic, yes. But the fact that they keep coming up with alternatives to it and ways to cheat its prereq tells me Paizo knows this feat has just about no intrinsic value. Maybe it's time to give it some. I'm not claiming I'm smart enough to know what to do, but I bet smart dudes could come up with something.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Redblade8 wrote:
Okay fine, calling for its elimination was a bit hyperbolic, yes. But the fact that they keep coming up with alternatives to it and ways to cheat its prereq tells me Paizo knows this feat has just about no intrinsic value. Maybe it's time to give it some. I'm not claiming I'm smart enough to know what to do, but I bet smart dudes could come up with something.

I don't think that Combat Expertise has no intrinsic value. It just isn't useful for builds that need it as a pre-req for other feats. The characters that might want combat expertise as a feat have basically no overlap with the characters who might want Improved Trip. And you'd probably never want to use the two feats together.

An AC focused build (although rightfully ridiculed by the community as a very suboptimal idea) might still want Combat Expertise. It gives scaling AC in exchange for excess attack bonus.

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Hmm.

Does this feat turn:

Quote:

Greater Grapple

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, base attack bonus +6.

into

Quote:

Greater Grapple

Prerequisites: Dirty Fighting, base attack bonus +6.

So you never have to take an Improved Grapple before you take Greater Grapple?

Quote:
as well as feats that require those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites.

Greater Grapple is a feat.

It requires an Improved Grapple feat that requires Improved Unarmed Strike.


James Risner wrote:

Hmm.

Does this feat turn:

Quote:

Greater Grapple

Prerequisites: Int 13, Combat Expertise, Improved Dirty Trick, base attack bonus +6.

I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Imbicatus wrote:

This feat means I'll never have to take combat expertise again. It's actually useful on it's own by allowing outflank for maneuvers without being a teamwork feat. It also allows you to attempt any maneuver you like without improved x without fear of an AoO. It opens a lot of tactics, especially if you also have gang up.

It also means I don't need to take a level in brawler if I want to use maneuvers and have less than Int 13.

This feat alone is worth buying the book.

Here's hoping it's a book outside the main line and thus immune to FAQrata nerfs.

Silver Crusade Contributor

kyrt-ryder wrote:
Imbicatus wrote:

This feat means I'll never have to take combat expertise again. It's actually useful on it's own by allowing outflank for maneuvers without being a teamwork feat. It also allows you to attempt any maneuver you like without improved x without fear of an AoO. It opens a lot of tactics, especially if you also have gang up.

It also means I don't need to take a level in brawler if I want to use maneuvers and have less than Int 13.

This feat alone is worth buying the book.

Here's hoping it's a book outside the main line and thus immune to FAQrata nerfs.

It's from Pathfinder Player Companion: Dirty Tactics Toolbox, which means that unless it draws a lot of ire (unlikely), they'll have no avenue to do so.


That's a relief.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Come forth, Earth Eidolon! Once, I had to pretend you had Improved Trip by giving you reach! But now, you are a Dirty Fighter (pun intended)! You may be a dumb brute, but you can trip with the best of them.

(I'm looking forward to this feat. It'll make it easier to create melee characters and pets who excel at battlefield control, the role I enjoy most. It'll also let people use situational maneuvers without investing all of their feats, which should add variety to combat.)

The Exchange Owner - D20 Hobbies

Gisher wrote:
I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.

Sorry, was thinking Dirty Trick and typed Grapple.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Castarr4 wrote:


I don't think that Combat Expertise has no intrinsic value. It just isn't useful for builds that need it as a pre-req for other feats. The characters that might want combat expertise as a feat have basically no overlap with the characters who might want Improved Trip. And you'd probably never want to use the two feats together.

An AC focused build (although rightfully ridiculed by the community as a very suboptimal idea) might still want Combat Expertise. It gives scaling AC in exchange for excess attack bonus.

That goes back to my point. I'd be willing to bet that if one was able to collate stats on it, the vast majority of folks aren't choosing that feat for the things in its Description entry. They're more likely sighing in a begrudging manner and saying, "Yeah, I need it so I can take this other feat here.". Then they also look at taking one of the aforementioned things that bypass the prereqs, too. That tells me that CE's value, judged solely on what it does as a feat, is quite low.


James Risner wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.
Sorry, was thinking Dirty Trick and typed Grapple.

Greater Dirty Trick is a feat "that requires those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites".

Therefore, Dirty Fighting "counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites".

You still need to take Improved before you can take Greater, and you still need the BAB.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber
Casual Viking wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.
Sorry, was thinking Dirty Trick and typed Grapple.

Greater Dirty Trick is a feat "that requires those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites".

Therefore, Dirty Fighting "counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites".

You still need to take Improved before you can take Greater, and you still need the BAB.

This is correct. You ignore what it says to ignore. It doesn't say to ignore improved feats when taking greater feats. You get to use the list that it gives when taking either of those.

Ah yes, this will help animal companions with 3 int and eidolons! Great!

Grand Lodge

Casual Viking wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.
Sorry, was thinking Dirty Trick and typed Grapple.

Greater Dirty Trick is a feat "that requires those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites".

Therefore, Dirty Fighting "counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites".

You still need to take Improved before you can take Greater, and you still need the BAB.

Yeah, the wording is odd and the first time I read it I thought it meant that, too. But it's saying, this feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for Improved Combat Maneuver Feats AND this feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for feats that also have those Improved Combat Maneuver feats as prereqs.

Basically it will count as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for Felling Smash because Felling smash has Improved Trip as a prereq even though this feat is not your typical combat maneuver feat. But it will not count as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for Pack Flanking because it is not an improved combat maneuver feat and doesn't have an improved combat maneuver feat as a prereq.

I had plans to make a Dirty Trick fighter for PFS and the Maneuver Master errata dropped down my want to make it (still planned on it, though). This will be awesome for such a build--though I probably would have two levels of Lore Master in there for the bonus feats and free Combat Expertise so it may not come up.


Feint is a manoeuvre, right?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Secret Wizard wrote:
Feint is a manoeuvre, right?

While it doesn't go for the usual CMB vs CMD, it's true that it's listed among the combat maneuvers in the Combat chapter


Feinting is not a maneuver


Overall...this makes my eldritch guardian fighter build even more broken than before.

Remove a feat that does nothing for me directly, remove the need to be MAD with INT, and it gives both me and my familiar a nice bonus to our CMB.

Yes, this will allow me to break everything much, much easier. So I might even be able to turn big beefy enemies into crippled messes in a single turn with this (when we are backed up by mutagens and the familiar's scaling str bonus).


It's sad that Dirty Fighting doesn't improve feints


I'm feeling dumb because I don't think i understand what it works for and what it doesn't
If I'm getting right idea, it works for feat chains built off improved maneuvers?

Scarab Sages

Tayse wrote:

I'm feeling dumb because I don't think i understand what it works for and what it doesn't

If I'm getting right idea, it works for feat chains built off improved maneuvers?

It works on Improved Maneuver feats and feats that have an Improved Maneuver feat as a prerequisite. So for example, it would allow you to qualify for Ki Throw without Improved Unarmed Strike. It would also allow you to take Grabbing Style without Improved Unarmed Strike because it has Improved Grapple as a prerequisite, but not most other styles as they do not.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

oh man, OH MAN

that makes my dirty fighting bounty hunter slayer SO much better

it eliminates the need for dipping monk/brawler just to get ius+feat, eliminates the need for 13dex, eliminates combat expertise

that's so sweet:

something like this now:
1)dirty fighting
3)imp dirty trick
4)imp grapple (kurgess style)
5)stamina
6)gr grapple (bonus talent from humanhalf-orc, kurgess style)
7)gr dirty trick
8)combat trick->strangler
9)quick grapple
11)dirty trick master
12)surprise maneuvers

basically it becomes:
standard action: grapple (at +8 if flanking from surprise maneuvers+dirty fighting)
move action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-1
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler) (double stacking the first condition)
swift action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-6
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler)(double stacking the 2nd condition)

for a grappled, nausated, dazed/frightened/pinned/whatever) opponent in 1 round


shroudb wrote:

basically it becomes:
standard action: grapple (at +8 if flanking from surprise maneuvers+dirty fighting)
move action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-1
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler) (double stacking the first condition)
swift action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-6
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler)(double stacking the 2nd condition)

I'm 99% sure that doesn't work. Neither Strangler nor Submission hold trigger the Bounty Hunter class feature Dirty Trick, because it requires an attack roll. Instead both do sneak attack damage automatically.


Ellioti wrote:
shroudb wrote:

basically it becomes:
standard action: grapple (at +8 if flanking from surprise maneuvers+dirty fighting)
move action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-1
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler) (double stacking the first condition)
swift action grapple for damage at (submission hold)-6
free action dirty trick (at +8)
free action dirty trick (at +8)(from strangler)(double stacking the 2nd condition)

I'm 99% sure that doesn't work. Neither Strangler nor Submission hold trigger the Bounty Hunter class feature Dirty Trick, because it requires an attack roll. Instead both do sneak attack damage automatically.

nope:

from bounty hunter:
Quote:
At 2nd level, anytime a bounty hunter is able to deal sneak attack damage to a studied target, he can instead attempt to hamper the target.

it requires from you to declare it before using it sure, but it only requires you to "deal" sneak attack damage.

i'm 99% certain that's the reason bounty hunter actually HAS submission hold, so as to be able to do dirty trick without flanking and such, if he also specializes in grappling.

if not, then the whole point of him having said ability is mute


This feat should just be errata'd into the CRB.


hiiamtom wrote:
This feat should just be errata'd into the CRB.

I am still trying to figure out how many things still exist that are even worth considering taking Combat Expertise for.

There's Whirlwind Attack...and...???


Snowblind wrote:
hiiamtom wrote:
This feat should just be errata'd into the CRB.

I am still trying to figure out how many things still exist that are even worth considering taking Combat Expertise for.

There's Whirlwind Attack...and...???

stalward chain

archon style
moonlight stalker chain
pack flanking
surprise maneuver

i think that's all that are kinda relevant for some builds?


1 person marked this as a favorite.
shroudb wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
hiiamtom wrote:
This feat should just be errata'd into the CRB.

I am still trying to figure out how many things still exist that are even worth considering taking Combat Expertise for.

There's Whirlwind Attack...and...???

stalward chain

archon style
moonlight stalker chain
pack flanking
surprise maneuver

i think that's all that are kinda relevant for some builds?

I'd add:

Kobold Style (grapple from invisibility etc.)
Gang Up (easier to get flanking bonus and sneak attack)
Swift Aid (boost an ally / companion by +2 nearly for free)
Second Chance (basically +5 attack if you miss with the first two-handed attack)

They are all situational, but that's true for the more popular feats also.

Grand Lodge

This opens up a lot of options for Animal Companions, too. Finally crazy tripping Wolves with Greater Trip!

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber
DubiousYak wrote:


I am still trying to figure out how many things still exist that are even worth considering taking Combat Expertise for.
shroudb wrote:
Snowblind wrote:
There's Whirlwind Attack...and...???

stalward chain

archon style
moonlight stalker chain
pack flanking
surprise maneuver

i think that's all that are kinda relevant for some builds?

Dirty Fighting only works a perquisite for Improved Combat Maneuver feats so it would not help out chains like Moonlight Stalker, since Feint is not a combat maneuver.

Please read the posts you are responding to. They are specifically listing things that would require Combat Expertise.


Just want to clarify: Since the Strangler (Brawler archetype) counts as flanking for himself when using their Sneak Attack strangle, does Dirty Fighting grant me a +4 on my grapple attempt?

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Not on the initial grapple attempt. A strangler is considered flanking on grapple checks to maintain a grapple and either damage or pin an opponent. On checks to maintain, you would get the +4 if you have Improved Grapple.


Sweet!

Using Martial Flexibility, and having Dirty Fighting, I can take Improved Grapple whenever I need it. That extra +4 to maintain the grapple and damage someone should come in handy!


claudekennilol wrote:
Casual Viking wrote:
James Risner wrote:
Gisher wrote:
I'm confused. That isn't the list of prerequisites that I'm seeing for Greater Grapple.
Sorry, was thinking Dirty Trick and typed Grapple.

Greater Dirty Trick is a feat "that requires those improved combat maneuver feats as prerequisites".

Therefore, Dirty Fighting "counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for the purposes of meeting the prerequisites".

You still need to take Improved before you can take Greater, and you still need the BAB.

Yeah, the wording is odd and the first time I read it I thought it meant that, too. But it's saying, this feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for Improved Combat Maneuver Feats AND this feat counts as having Dex 13, Int 13, Combat Expertise, and Improved Unarmed Strike for feats that also have those Improved Combat Maneuver feats as prereqs.

Basically it will count as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for Felling Smash because Felling smash has Improved Trip as a prereq even though this feat is not your typical combat maneuver feat. But it will not count as Int 13 and Combat Expertise for Pack Flanking because it is not an improved combat maneuver feat and doesn't have an improved combat maneuver feat as a prereq.

I had plans to make a Dirty Trick fighter for PFS and the Maneuver Master errata dropped down my want to make it (still planned on it, though). This will be awesome for such a build--though I probably would have two levels of Lore Master in there for the bonus feats and free Combat Expertise so it may not come up.

Sorry for reviving this thread but wouldn't you need Improved Trip before grabbing Felling Smash? If, yes then I think I get this, if no then why would someone be able to take felling smash with dirty fighting and not greater trip?


Yes, you still need Improved trip to get Felling Smash.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / Advice / Dirty Fighting from the Dirty Tactics Toolbox All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.