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I've noticed that low level adventures, even official Pathfinder material, often give enemies really high damage and/or high critical multiplier weapons, consolidating their damage output into heartbreaking alpha strikes instead of spreading it out into something more managable, something a team can react to.
There's no reason a common thug in a tier 1-2 adventure should be using a x4 crit weapon. All that's going to do is insta-kill some unlucky player. Why not design low level enemies to use more forgiving (but still believable) tactics? Instead of singe, huge attacks, use more numerous, lower damage attacks (two weapon fighting, shield bash, natural attacks, etc). How about more combat maneuvers that spice things up instead of just trying to exterminate single-digit characters as fast as possible. Debuff spells instead of save-or-die, more mooks instead of single monsters with DR, and multiple skill challenges instead of death traps.
Just some thoughts. Anyone agree or disagree strongly?
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Those aren't just good ideas for low-level adventure design, I use a lot of those same principles in higher level design as well. Even a 5th level character will struggle if he or she is surrounded by a gang of goblins trying to grapple/pin her.
De-buffs are less good in low-level encounters, because the PCs are barely competent at that level - but de-buffing environmental effects are awesome at higher levels.
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The problem with that is the same problem as it is for PCs.
Everything besides 'Whack it with one big weapon" has oodles and oodles of Feat and ability taxes to get put through.
Getting that Dex 15 for Two-Weapon Fighting is kinda hard for an NPC, unles you plan on trading out "alpha strike" for "Death of a thousand cuts". The former may be too binary, but the latter is pretty much non-threatening, especially when you take into account the -2 to-hit on top of the lower Str (which is also why TWFing is generally not recommended to be taken before like 5th level, when you can finally eat the penalties).
Likewise at low levels combat maneuvers are harder to build into, and probably harder for a low level party to deal with in the first place, while still not being partouclarly "realistic" unless you have a couple of guys going around whacking the Prone or Grapple or Disarmed dudes in the face.
More mooks is probably a bad idea at low levels too, since mooks are generally closer in level to PCs, and have similar damage output (three CR 1 Orcs vs a CR 3 party can just as well swing in favor of the orcs as the PCs. Now multiply that.).
Levels 1-4 or so are just binary by nature. HP and AC are generally pretty low, and damage output hasn't quite leveled off yet. Even a x2 crit can ruin a lot of PCs' day.
lv1 the level where a mages AC can be better than the fighters.
fighter dex 14 in a four-mirror armor AC = 18
Mage mage armor and shield with dex 14 AC = 20.
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lv1 the level where a mages AC can be better than the fighters.
fighter dex 14 in a four-mirror armor AC = 18
Mage mage armor and shield with dex 14 AC = 20.
Theoretically possible, but what wizard is going to blow 2/3 of their spells/day on AC boosts? (one of which only lasts for a single fight and likely used up a combat round to cast)
A sorcerer wouldn't know both of them - or they wouldn't know any other 1st level spells.
lv1 the level where a mages AC can be better than the fighters.
fighter dex 14 in a four-mirror armor AC = 18
Mage mage armor and shield with dex 14 AC = 20.Theoretically possible, but what wizard is going to blow 2/3 of their spells/day on AC boosts? (one of which only lasts for a single fight and likely used up a combat round to cast)
A sorcerer wouldn't know both of them - or they wouldn't know any other 1st level spells.
I'm not saying it's likely. But just showing how crazy lv1 stuff can be. And I saw a half-orc sorcerer do this and wield a great axe
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I'm not saying it's likely. But just showing how crazy lv1 stuff can be. And I saw a half-orc sorcerer do this and wield a great axe
Fair enough - not terrible if aimed for DD - though he's still at a lower AC than a lvl 1 fighter going sword & board sitting at 21. (6 armor + 2 dex + 2 shield + 1 Defender of the Society)
There's an NPC in the 2nd book of one of the adventure paths that has a +1 keen falcata - this is against 4th level characters. The rogue of the party used an Enlarge Person potion, came up behind him and hit for a good chunk of damage. The next round, the NPC did a 5' move towards the rogue and got a crit (rolled an 18 and then confirmed it) for 3d8+12 damage. A good damage roll and it was 30 points of damage, which was more than enough to perma-kill him (he had already taken a minor hit from a mook).
Yeah, no more keel falcatas for me...
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There's an NPC in the 2nd book of one of the adventure paths that has a +1 keen falcata - this is against 4th level characters. The rogue of the party used an Enlarge Person potion, came up behind him and hit for a good chunk of damage. The next round, the NPC did a 5' move towards the rogue and got a crit (rolled an 18 and then confirmed it) for 3d8+12 damage. A good damage roll and it was 30 points of damage, which was more than enough to perma-kill him (he had already taken a minor hit from a mook).
Yeah, no more keel falcatas for me...
This is exactly what I'm talking about. Why are non-boss bad guys rigged for massive/frequent critical hits in low level adventures? That battle could easily have been written in such a way as to make it less Boolean and simultaneously more tactical and fun. Why not trip or disarm the rogue? Or bull rush him into a nearby 10' pit so he takes a bit of damage and has to make a skill check to rejoin the battle. There are tons of options that keep battles interesting, challenging, and fun without randomly insta-killing characters.
There's an NPC in the 2nd book of one of the adventure paths that has a +1 keen falcata - this is against 4th level characters. The rogue of the party used an Enlarge Person potion, came up behind him and hit for a good chunk of damage. The next round, the NPC did a 5' move towards the rogue and got a crit (rolled an 18 and then confirmed it) for 3d8+12 damage. A good damage roll and it was 30 points of damage, which was more than enough to perma-kill him (he had already taken a minor hit from a mook).
Yeah, no more keel falcatas for me...
HAHAHA oh man that encounter was hilarious for me (as the GM).
Not so great for the players though.
Dude wins Initiative, and Shield Slams their captain off the boat. Attacks the barbarian with the remaining attacks.
Other party members attack him, and miss.
Guy strikes with his Falcata at the Alchemist. CRIT WHOOO. Takes him from full HP to -24 in one swipe. Poor headless goblin.
Last two party members wail on him a bit, but he's still standing.
Full attack. BAM ANOTHER CRIT. Barbarian bites the dust, dead.
Poor Magus is all that's left.
Had to let their entire crew gang up on the guy (the Ghast they recruited earlier saved their bacon here) and Sandra Quinn used a Breath of Life scroll to save the Barbarian (he now has a clockwork leg as a reminder of his mishap).
Gortus decided they were too much trouble and left onc ethe rest of the crew got involved (being nearly dead from an Alchemist and Ranger full attack).
They tracked him down later and barely beat him. He's now a crewmate (they took over the Pallor). Every time he's been in combat since he's gotten a crit and killed whatever piqued his ire.
He's the only NPC crew member not allowed to come with them on missions of teh ship. My dice love the guy too much.
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Here's an example from an adventure I wrote:
The players are sent out in search of a caravan that never arrived in town. A couple days up the road, they find the wagons but all the cargo is missing. The orcs responsible for the attack have been waiting nearby to ambush whoever was sent looking for the goods, as they're really looking for prisoners, not loot.
So here comes a typical battle against some orcs, right? Nope. You see, the cargo they stole was actually several crates full of exotic weapons from faraway lands. What ensues is a hectic, often hilarious brawl agains a bunch of dumb orcs (more than a normal encounter of that CR) who are trying to dual wield nunchaku, whirl spiked chains, and figure out flind bars.
The PCs love it because it's a target rich environment and they get tons of attacks of opportunity every time an orc tries to disarm or trip them. The orcs still do decent damage because of their high strength, but the critical multipliers are all x2 and they suffer the -4 penalty to hit for not being proficient. It's a tactical, flavorful battle that everyone has a good time with.
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I usually equip goblins with small light crossbows and bolts dipped in some non-Constitution based, short duration poison. That way they have a ranged weapon that's not going to one-shot-kill anyone, but it still has a nasty sting that affects the battle, even though it wears off quickly afterward since low-level characters don't have much in the way of effect remedies at that level.
As for bosses in low-level games, I like to build them to spread out damage. In one adventure, I rebuilt a standard ogre to use two-weapon fighting with a pair of clubs to divide up that massive strength bonus between targets. In another, the players had to fight an enchanter and all his charmed thralls; the catch there was that the thralls were all former adventurers he'd very recently charmed, so whenever the players dropped one, they could usually find a potion of cure light wounds or at least some spare arrows.
Anyway, the point is to keep the overall challenge and minimize the potential for bad luck to instantly, permanently kill low-level players, especially newbies! I wonder how many potential lifelong players have been turned off early on after spending an hour building their first character, only to have it get gibbed in their very first battle by a common monster who, for some reason, has a x4 crit weapon...
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For my group's lvl 1 adventure, they had to go investigate why the local farming village was no longer sending supplies to market.
They found evidence of goblins, but the village looked unusually quiet.
As they approached, they get set upon by 4 goblins and a farmer, all wielding rakes and such, and doing non-lethal damage. Took down the rogue after a few hits, but the group managed to hit a few back - where they were exposed to a yellow pollen that came out of the gobos and the farmer. WTF??
They eventually learned that a Yellow Musk Creeper had taken hold of the village, and was using its zombies to gather more victims. (Hence the non-lethal attacks.)
Ahhhh - such fun. Especially when the cleric tried to channel to harm the zombies! LOL
But I designed it to start with non-lethal (by and large) @ 1st, and then progress to lethal @ 2nd, and so on up from there.
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They eventually learned that a Yellow Musk Creeper had taken hold of the village, and was using its zombies to gather more victims. (Hence the non-lethal attacks.)
That's a really good idea! A great plot and a slow ramp-up in lethality to give single-digit HP characters a sporting chance of survival! I hope you don't mind if I borrow (cough - shamelessly steal - cough) your idea for my home game. ;)
^Thanks! I borrowed (stole) the idea from Star Trek, actually - tho I forget what the episode was called. It's one where they go to a planet and all the inhabitants are perfectly healthy because of spores, even though they are being bombarded by lethal radiation.
Anyway - I'm not a "I'm out to kill you!" GM, so I wanted to start with non-lethal and ramp up from there. Rakes and such seemed logical, and not everything needs to be "kill or be killed" in Pathfinder, so - yeah - I was pretty happy with how it worked.
The critical hit problem occurs at more than just first and second levels. It is no spoiler that The Hook Mountain Massacre module involves ogres. We encountered ogre fighters armed with large ogre hooks 2d8+13/19-20/x3. A critical hit from one of those backed by an ogre's strength rips a PC open with an average of 66 damage. And we were a 7th level party, so our martial characters had an average of 50 hp from hit dice and Favored Class, with 7 or 14 more from Con.
The first crit was against our battle oracle, who had 77 hp due to a high constitution and Toughness. She used a Grace spell to safely retreat from the front line. She healed herself over a few turns, returned to the front line, and took a second crit. No other player character could have stayed conscious after a crit from an ogre-wielded ogre hook. Most would have been dead.
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The critical hit problem occurs at more than just first and second levels.
It's less of a problem at mid and high levels, though, due to the availability of healing magic and, at high level, raise dead and other resurrection spells. Pathfinder (like all 3.X+ material) has a general problem with breaking down at high level, so I tend to discount any issues that arise in that tier. Every battle is basically "rocket tag" once your party is around 13th level.
I get around a lot of these issues by sticking to E6 and using some discretion when designing my battles. It works great so far, but unfortunately I still see all kinds of problems with a lot of official Paizo material.
I work in video games (MMOs, specifically), and one of the cardinal rules is "never one-shot kill a new player." In other words, don't unfairly (or unluckily) aggravate a potential customer who is still in the "do I like this game or not?" introductory phase. :)
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It's also one reason to use goblins instead of orcs at level 1.
1d4+1 (shortsword/shortbow) isn't likely to be lethal, even with x3 crit.
I've got a group of PCs who would fight you on that statement. :P
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I usually equip goblins with small light crossbows and bolts dipped in some non-Constitution based, short duration poison.
I usually include filth fever because their arrows are gross and disgusting, usually covered in rot, refuse, dung, and are frequently rusty. It's the gift that keeps on giving.
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Filth fever is always fun at low levels. I once had a PC almost die from Filth Fever over the course of three play sessions, which was amazing to roleplay. He couldn't shake the bug over several days due to a series of bad saves, eventually ended up bedridden while the party frantically ran around trying to find something to help him, but the low magic area they were in made it almost impossible. They found a scroll of cure disease which the cleric somehow flubbed, and then got their hands on a potion to boost the patient's con, which BARELY allowed him to pass one of the saves he needed to do. One last lucky roll (he got down to 3 Con, I think) and he eventually pulled through.
I usually equip goblins with small light crossbows and bolts dipped in some non-Constitution based, short duration poison. That way they have a ranged weapon that's not going to one-shot-kill anyone, but it still has a nasty sting that affects the battle, even though it wears off quickly afterward since low-level characters don't have much in the way of effect remedies at that level.
As for bosses in low-level games, I like to build them to spread out damage. In one adventure, I rebuilt a standard ogre to use two-weapon fighting with a pair of clubs to divide up that massive strength bonus between targets. In another, the players had to fight an enchanter and all his charmed thralls; the catch there was that the thralls were all former adventurers he'd very recently charmed, so whenever the players dropped one, they could usually find a potion of cure light wounds or at least some spare arrows.
Anyway, the point is to keep the overall challenge and minimize the potential for bad luck to instantly, permanently kill low-level players, especially newbies! I wonder how many potential lifelong players have been turned off early on after spending an hour building their first character, only to have it get gibbed in their very first battle by a common monster who, for some reason, has a x4 crit weapon...
But you have most likely mission killed at least one PC. Sure he is not dead, but he cannot continue to effectively contribute. And what do you mean "wears off quickly"? You recover one point of stat damage per day, so it takes a long time to recover from without Lesser restoration spells, which your low level guys probably do not have.
And what do you mean "wears off quickly"? You recover one point of stat damage per day, so it takes a long time to recover from without Lesser restoration spells, which your low level guys probably do not have.
If you take a full rest and have someone providing long term care, you can recover 4 points per 24 hour period.
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But you have most likely mission killed at least one PC. Sure he is not dead, but he cannot continue to effectively contribute. And what do you mean "wears off quickly"? You recover one point of stat damage per day, so it takes a long time to recover from without Lesser restoration spells, which your low level guys probably do not have.
I use new, low-level poisons in my home game. The ability score damage they cause wears off in a matter of minutes or after any magical/skilled healing.
And what do you mean "wears off quickly"? You recover one point of stat damage per day, so it takes a long time to recover from without Lesser restoration spells, which your low level guys probably do not have.If you take a full rest and have someone providing long term care, you can recover 4 points per 24 hour period.
Taking days off at a time is a mission kill in most cases.
Low-level enemies tend to have poor attack bonuses and damage modifiers with rare exceptions, and if any have more than 1 attack you can bet on them hitting less than 50% of the time to compensate. Most low-level foes have weapons that only crit on a 20, which usually means high critical multipliers, since a crit from any source is usually damaging enough to knock out a low-level PC.
I've run 6 groups through low level scenarios and nobody has ever died at level 1. The closest I've ever gotten was with the mooks at the beginning of Kingmaker who are armed with Shortswords - I confirmed 2 crits against 1 player, then confirmed another 2 both times she was healed back to consciousness. With a weapon that dealt x3 on a 20 she wouldn't have been crit at all since the only Nat 20 was on an AoO caused by standing up after being healed from unconsciousness after the first 2 crits.
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Low-level enemies tend to have poor attack bonuses and damage modifiers with rare exceptions, and if any have more than 1 attack you can bet on them hitting less than 50% of the time to compensate. Most low-level foes have weapons that only crit on a 20, which usually means high critical multipliers, since a crit from any source is usually damaging enough to knock out a low-level PC.
I've run 6 groups through low level scenarios and nobody has ever died at level 1. The closest I've ever gotten was with the mooks at the beginning of Kingmaker who are armed with Shortswords - I confirmed 2 crits against 1 player, then confirmed another 2 both times she was healed back to consciousness. With a weapon that dealt x3 on a 20 she wouldn't have been crit at all since the only Nat 20 was on an AoO caused by standing up after being healed from unconsciousness after the first 2 crits.
Average HP for a level 1 character (assuming 14 Con): 9 (d6), 11 (d8), 13 (d10), 15 (d12)
Average AC: About 16, at best (Scale Mail and 12 Dex makes 16, Studded Leather and 18 Dex makes 16, Mage Armor and 14 Dex makes 16, etc.)
Now, let's look at some of the most common low level enemies:
Orc, Common (CR 1/3): Falchion +5, 2d4+4 (average 9) damage, 18-20/x2 crit.
These have the potential to stagger a d6 HD class on an average roll, and d8 classes on a higher than average roll and hit 50% of the time. They can knock unconscious any of the above classes in two hits. Notably, they have an effective HP of 18, since they don't stop fighting until dead at -12 HP, making them sturdier than PCs as well.
Zombie, Medium Humanoid (CR 1/2): Slam +4, 1d6+4 (average 7.5 damage). Hit 45% of the time, and can drop most characters in two hits. Generally encounter in packs of 2-4.
Ghoul (CR 1): Hits 40% of the time with each attack, but has three attacks each dealing 1d6+2 damage (average 5.5). If two hit, d6 HD classes are dropped, and if all three hit d12 classes are Staggered (everyone else is dropped).
Important Note: Also carry a deadly disease in the bite, and each hit also triggers a save vs Paralysis making them much more dangerous than their damage suggests (which is already dangerous). Often encountered in duos or trios even at low levels.
Those are all things you can expect to fight at 1st-3rd level, in increasingly large numbers. Note that while they may not kill you, they can very easily do so, or at least knock you out, and even if they do not they deal enough damage to require healing, eating up more resources per swing than their CR suggests they should.
Average HP for a level 1 character (assuming 14 Con): 9 (d6), 11 (d8), 13 (d10), 15 (d12)Low-level enemies tend to have poor attack bonuses and damage modifiers with rare exceptions, and if any have more than 1 attack you can bet on them hitting less than 50% of the time to compensate. Most low-level foes have weapons that only crit on a 20, which usually means high critical multipliers, since a crit from any source is usually damaging enough to knock out a low-level PC.
I've run 6 groups through low level scenarios and nobody has ever died at level 1. The closest I've ever gotten was with the mooks at the beginning of Kingmaker who are armed with Shortswords - I confirmed 2 crits against 1 player, then confirmed another 2 both times she was healed back to consciousness. With a weapon that dealt x3 on a 20 she wouldn't have been crit at all since the only Nat 20 was on an AoO caused by standing up after being healed from unconsciousness after the first 2 crits.
Assuming 14 Con and you spent your FCB on health, those would be the averages. Many builds cannot afford to put 5 points into their Con score (archers especially need Dex, Str, and often 1 mental stat to function). There are also a plethora of strong racial FCBs that a build may desire first. I find the range to be somewhere between 8-15, with d8 classes being the least predictable.
Average AC: About 16, at best (Scale Mail and 12 Dex makes 16, Studded Leather and 18 Dex makes 16, Mage Armor and 14 Dex makes 16, etc).
16 sounds reasonable, though Mage Armor isn't too easy to assume early on - full casters don't get many spells at Level 1 and every spell spent on a temporary defense is 1 less spell contributing to fights. More of a player preference really.
Now, let's look at some of the most common low level enemies:
Orc, Common (CR 1/3): Falchion +5, 2d4+4 (average 9) damage, 18-20/x2 crit.
These have the potential to stagger a d6 HD class on an average roll, and d8 classes on a higher than average roll and hit 50% of the time. They can knock unconscious any of the above classes in two hits. Notably, they have an effective HP of 18, since they don't stop fighting until dead at -12 HP, making them sturdier than PCs as well.
Orcs have 6 hp to lose and low AC before they become staggered, move at 1/2 speed, and start taking damage every time they perform "a strenuous action". Couple that with low AC and they're not too tough to knock out. However, their gear is worth more than most 1/3 encounter treasure hauls, they use one of the strongest weapons in the game, and typically they'll end up staggered from a melee attack putting them in range to retaliate on their turn. They are feared in Golarion for a reason. Once you hit Level 2 you should be able to fight a few orcs without a problem but crits do happen.
Zombie, Medium Humanoid (CR 1/2): Slam +4, 1d6+4 (average 7.5 damage). Hit 45% of the time, and can drop most characters in two hits. Generally encounter in packs of 2-4.
You left out the bit where Zombies are permanently staggered. That drastically reduces their power, and then you have to account for player strategies - making 1 attack then using Acrobatics to move away is a perfectly valid strategy that all but neutralizes them as a threat. The DR is the biggest threat, but Slashing is a common damage type (I rarely see someone build around a Bludgeoning weapon, sadly. So many missed Hammer Time jokes). I wouldn't exactly call them a challenge even for a Level 1 party.
Ghoul (CR 1)
Gonna stop you there. Ghouls are one of the most commonly-cited examples of under-CR'd creatures. 3 natural attacks with Save-or-Paralyzed is too much for most low-level groups, especially if it isn't alone. Drop a few hints first, giving the players an opportunity to know what they're going up against, before pitting them up against it. That said, their attack bonus and damage are both pretty low (about the same strength as those mooks in Kingmaker but with a lower crit range) so they shouldn't kill anyone too quickly without crazy luck on dice rolls. Their reflex save isn't great either so a good blast can take it out quickly.
To be fair it is hard to balance low-level encounters - even the most cautious build can be dropped with a couple lucky hits. For example, the 1st Kingmaker encounter has 3 mooks and an archer with the players getting a surprise round. The party monk had 17 AC, 11 HP, and Deflect Arrows, while the mooks swing shortswords at +2 for 1d6+1 damage. Theoretically it should've been easy, the enemy could only get 2 people adjacent to her at a time with a 25% hit chance and the archer was useless. 2 lucky crits later she was unconscious, and we discovered that day that being prone next to anything at low levels makes you about as defensible as a limp noodle. Sometimes things happen. Sometimes random bandits crit you 4 times and your bard runs out of healing after everyone else gets knocked out and solos 2 full-hp bandits with 3 hp remaining. The point is that low-level combat is dangerous, but Paizo tends to be forgiving - those mooks had low damage, so those crits didn't mean death. Wrath of the Righteous basically holds your hand for 2 levels while you get to the hard parts, huecuva excluded. Perhaps I have had different experiences due to my group's choices of AP.
Zombie, Medium Humanoid (CR 1/2): Slam +4, 1d6+4 (average 7.5 damage). Hit 45% of the time, and can drop most characters in two hits. Generally encounter in packs of 2-4.You left out the bit where Zombies are permanently staggered. That drastically reduces their power, and then you have to account for player strategies - making 1 attack then using Acrobatics to move away is a perfectly valid strategy that all but neutralizes them as a threat. The DR is the biggest threat, but Slashing is a common damage type (I rarely see someone build around a Bludgeoning weapon, sadly. So many missed Hammer Time jokes). I wouldn't exactly call them a challenge even for a Level 1 party.
That tactic does not work well for most characters. Zombies can charge up to their move speed (as per normal for staggered creatures, but it is specifically noted in their stat block). Moving away just gives them more of an attack bonus from charging and potentially sends the acrobatics user prone(nice job there). You could potentially kite them with a bow or something, but that requires open space to maneuver in, and how often do you fight zombies in the open with plenty of room to maneuver without the zombies getting support from more dangerous threats.
Never played Kingmaker, but Wrath is notorious for being pretty much the easiest AP Paizo has ever made (even if the players don't get Mythic tiers).
Look at Reign of Winter or Carrion Crown some time.
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Sometimes things happen.
Yes, we all understand that and it's part of the game, but some of these low-level monsters seem to have been optimized for huge critical hits.
There's no reason a CR 1 or lower monster should have a weapon with a critical threat range higher than 20 (maybe 19-20) or a critical multiplier higher than x2. It's just not necessary. When you give some mook a x4 crit weapon in a newbie adventure, you're not making it more challenging - you're really just saying, "I'm going to make some unlucky player spend his first night of gaming rolling up a new character instead of playing."
Let me put it another way. What if, during the opening sequence of Skyrim, there was a 10% chance that the dragon attacking the village would just instantly kill your character, sending you back to the character creation screen? "10% isn't a very high chance," you might say, but remember, we're talking aggregates here. That would mean that 10% of everyone who ever played Skyrim had to do the tutorial at least twice because of bad luck. That's just not good game design.
Now imagine you could download and play the first hour of Skyrim before deciding whether or not you wanted to buy it... suddenly that 10% unfair instant death is threatening to make a dent into the game's sales! This is what could be happening in Pathfinder right now.
Think about it: You invite a newbie to your local Pathfinder game, telling him all about how much fun it is. You help him roll up a ranger because he loved Aragorn's character in Lord of the Rings. Adventure calls - here we go! Except, during the first battle, he loses initiative to an orc (basically a coin toss), the orc charges (60 ft. move with +2 to attack, easily crossing most battlefields) and scores a critical hit (at 18-20 crit range, this is very possible). Down goes the fledgling ranger in his first battle. While everyone else goes on to finish the fight and continue the adventure, your newbie friend is sitting there with the Pathfinder book open, trying to figure out what kind of character to try next. What do you think his opinion of Pathfinder is at this point? Is he going to run out tomorrow and buy all the books? Subscribe? Chat on the forums? Sign up for Pathfinder Society?
I'm not saying this is a common situation, just saying that it's more common that it should be.
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Average AC: About 16, at best (Scale Mail and 12 Dex makes 16, Studded Leather and 18 Dex makes 16, Mage Armor and 14 Dex makes 16, etc.)
That seems low. For one thing - most character with access to med. armor get four-mirror armor rather than scale, bumping a 12dex character to 17. You're also assuming that shields are a rarity.
Frankly - at 1 most martials should use sword & board rather than two-handed since PA isn't very useful until 4ish (everyone has accuracy issues for the first couple levels, and at 1 the extra 2-3 damage is almost always overkill), and at 1 a single swing with d8+4 is enough to kill most things anyway.
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And at the same time, the rest of the groups playing through that adventure find the encounter easy. Because it all hinges on whether the bad guy rolls a 20 and gets his autokill.
Optimally, you would balance out the encounter with stuff other than huge critical hits. In my opinion, low CR monsters should make more use of combat maneuvers, as they're much more interesting than just dishing out wads of damage. Plus, players can actually respond to them, unlike huge critical hits.
Fighter had his greatsword disarmed? He can always switch to another weapon or try to pick it back up. Cleric got tripped? Quick, someone go cover her while she gets back up! Instead of just beheading the wizard, the orc thought it would be much more intimidating to sunder his quarterstaff; what a show of ferocity! That orc who charged the rogue didn't just insta-gib her with a crit; he bull-rushed her back into a 10 ft. pit, dealing less damage but taking her out of the fight for a round while she climbs back up. Meanwhile, the orc chieftain lunges in to grapple the group's raging barbarian.
Now that's a fight scene! Instead of just another plain old encounter with orcs, you've told a great story. Nobody remembers that one battle where they killed an orc with a greatsword, but you'd better believe that fighter's going to remember the time he killed an orc with the knife from his cooking kit after he got disarmed. Or when the rogue tricked the orc into following him down into the pit, knowing that the creature had a good chance of falling prone inside and being subject to a wicked sneak attack. The cleric, used to saving the day herself, is thankful to the party member who rushes to her aid after she got tripped. The wizard didn't really care much for that cheap quarterstaff anyway, but it made for a great image to have the orc sunder it right in half! And what barbarian wouldn't cherish the tale of how they once beat an orc chieftain to death with their bare hands!
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It doesn't bother me much at level 1. I haven't had the character long enough to get attached. Early death is a good reminder that adventuring is dangerous.
It doesn't bother me much at level 10 since I can probably get raised.
It's the Cyclops critical at level 5 that bothers me.
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Headfirst, maneuvers do tell a great story, but using them like you describe realistically requires them to be easier to pull off at low levels. You need two feats to avoid provoking AoO on a maneuver - the Improved Maneuver feat and its pre-requisite - which is impossible for a level 1 orc warrior. If the orcs provoke AoO before bull rushing the rogue, or tripping the cleric, or disarming the fighter a lot of them are going to get taken out of the fight without providing any real threat.
That doesn't just reduce combat's swingy lethality - it makes it plain easier, and also affects the tone. Remember, your earlier example with the orcs trying to use monk weapons (and provoking AoO in the process) turned into a "hectic, often hilarious brawl" which is awesome for an occasional encounter but not so great for the typical low level adventure.
One good house-rule I've seen for this is to introduce a "Powerful Maneuvers" feat which lets you use the Power Attack line of maneuver feats (bull rush, sunder, etc) without AoO and a "Deft Maneuvers" feat which lets you use the Combat Expertise set (trip, disarm, etc). Use these as pre-reqs for the appropriate Improved Maneuver feats, or just go straight to the Greater Feats. This allows a level 1 character or basic orc warrior to use a variety of maneuvers without fear, with minimal investment (and since the orcs won't all have Power Attack it slightly decreases how hard they actually hit).
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Yeah, Weirdo, those two house rule feats sound great! Better yet, those should be basic abilities granted at 1st level to fighters and rogues respectively. :)
But, if you remember from my earlier example with the orcs using exotic weapons, I included more orcs than a battle of that CR would have normally had to make up for the lower capabilities of each individual orc.
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This is a complex issue.
The general design of the 3.x series of games is "rocket tag", i.e. whoever hits first wins. This is a feature, not a bug. Other rpg games, like DND 4e, are all about slow tactical play where you have to team up to deliver kills.
The lower levels in PF are fraught with quick deaths because 1-2 hits can easily kill any enemy or player, excepting that one barbarian who put 18 on Con and that one monster you're not supposed to face behind the sealed off door.
Purchased materials do not have the liberty to carefully craft custom scenarios for each type of new player. Home games do.
My advice:
1.) Martial players should always know the specifics of any weapon they are facing; they are martial weapon experts. You should encourage players by naming specific weapons they are facing and telling martial proficiency characters what the weapon they are facing does. They don't need a skill check to know, they know all the weapons they know and can ID them by sight.
2.) Orcs are a particular monster that require a particular set of strategies. DM's should use different monsters to teach different lessons at low level and a martial PC should never have to ask or guess what kind of crit threat they face. ex. [Orc's are famous for being stupid, evil and cleaving opponents in half with single blows. History check DC 5: Wanthar the Orcwrecker prefered his bow "Melee Killer" when dealing with them.]
3.) The +1 keen falcata example above is very fringe. Did the players know it was a falcata? Did the pirate have a reputation of carving mighty warriors in half with single blows? One single dangerous melee only target is threatening only in melee.
If PC's are trapped in a tight box with a melee expert, they are all going to die. The intervention doesn't have to be nullifying the expert. You can also find creative opportunities to let the PC's know they might soon be locked in a box with a melee expert. Many low level spells change the face of this encounter quickly, like Grease on the falcata.
4.) It's o.k. to stage a campaign to let the PC's generally win. I ran a party for 4.5 years wherein most of the players only wanted enough challenge to scare them, vs. actually beating them. We all had a great time.
5.) It's o.k. to run a campaign where everyone is always nearly dying, if that's what the players want. I'm currently playing in Rappan Athuk, and our general rule is, "If it does melee, do not melee with it, because it will instantly kill you."
That tactic does not work well for most characters. Zombies can charge up to their move speed (as per normal for staggered creatures, but it is specifically noted in their stat block). Moving away just gives them more of an attack bonus from charging and potentially sends the acrobatics user prone(nice job there). You could potentially kite them with a bow or something, but that requires open space to maneuver in, and how often do you fight zombies in the open with plenty of room to maneuver without the zombies getting support from more dangerous threats.
Zombie, Medium Humanoid (CR 1/2): Slam +4, 1d6+4 (average 7.5 damage). Hit 45% of the time, and can drop most characters in two hits. Generally encounter in packs of 2-4.You left out the bit where Zombies are permanently staggered. That drastically reduces their power, and then you have to account for player strategies - making 1 attack then using Acrobatics to move away is a perfectly valid strategy that all but neutralizes them as a threat. The DR is the biggest threat, but Slashing is a common damage type (I rarely see someone build around a Bludgeoning weapon, sadly. So many missed Hammer Time jokes). I wouldn't exactly call them a challenge even for a Level 1 party.
Ah, forgot about that Standard Action Charge clause. That does make them a bit more of a threat. Nonetheless, they do lack action economy, and charging can be countered with a Brace weapon for automatic 2x damage or a reach weapon to trip on your AoO. Not as easy to pull off but you get the idea. Their reflex saves are also pretty low, so blasting could be effective.
Also, you don't go prone from a failed Acrobatics check. Failure just lets the enemy take their AoO when you move, unless you're trying to go through their square (not recommended) in which case you also lose your move action.
Never played Kingmaker, but Wrath is notorious for being pretty much the easiest AP Paizo has ever made (even if the players don't get Mythic tiers).
Look at Reign of Winter or Carrion Crown some time.
Kingmaker is very swingy. One day you'll fight a few bandits, nothing too hard, and the next you can come across an Owlbear or Will-o'-Wisp. And that's book 1.
Wrath is pretty easy overall, but there are a few fights that caused problems - the Huecuva was almost a TPK, the Alchemist was very frustrating due to Smoke Bomb and hit-and-run tactics, and a certain enemy in Book 2 drained the party's paladin from Level 6 to Level 1 in a single turn, and nearly crit on an Enervation too.
Sometimes things happen.Yes, we all understand that and it's part of the game, but some of these low-level monsters seem to have been optimized for huge critical hits.
There's no reason a CR 1 or lower monster should have a weapon with a critical threat range higher than 20 (maybe 19-20) or a critical multiplier higher than x2. It's just not necessary. When you give some mook a x4 crit weapon in a newbie adventure, you're not making it more challenging - you're really just saying, "I'm going to make some unlucky player spend his first night of gaming rolling up a new character instead of playing."
Let me put it another way. What if, during the opening sequence of Skyrim, there was a 10% chance that the dragon attacking the village would just instantly kill your character, sending you back to the character creation screen? "10% isn't a very high chance," you might say, but remember, we're talking aggregates here. That would mean that 10% of everyone who ever played Skyrim had to do the tutorial at least twice because of bad luck. That's just not good game design.
Now imagine you could download and play the first hour of Skyrim before deciding whether or not you wanted to buy it... suddenly that 10% unfair instant death is threatening to make a dent into the game's sales! This is what could be happening in Pathfinder right now.
Think about it: You invite a newbie to your local Pathfinder game, telling him all about how much fun it is. You help him roll up a ranger because he loved Aragorn's character in Lord of the Rings. Adventure calls - here we go! Except, during the first battle, he loses initiative to an orc (basically a coin toss), the orc charges (60 ft. move with +2 to attack, easily crossing most battlefields) and scores a critical hit (at 18-20 crit range, this is very possible). Down goes the fledgling ranger in his first battle. While everyone else goes on to finish the fight and continue the adventure, your newbie friend is sitting there with the...
First off, I've already said that Orcs are too strong for 1/3 CR. That's something we agree on. Secondly, your numbers are off - your Ranger friend likely has medium armor and decent Con if they're emulating Aragorn (if he has 12 dex he goes first 55% of the time - not a coin flip, but close enough). We'll call it 16 AC and 12 HP (maybe he wanted a skill point FCB). The Orc has a 10% chance of threatening a crit, a 60% chance of confirming a crit, and a 0% chance of dealing enough damage on that crit to kill him from maximum hp. The orc has a 6% chance of critting, not a 10% chance, and won't even kill him, giving his allies time to react. After all, he doesn't exist in a vacuum - his party should be around.
Crits happen. It's part of the game, and if we gave all low-level threats 20/x2 weapons you'd still see some of them kill Level 1 players on a lucky crit. Like I've said earlier, I crit someone 4 times with shortsword-wielding mooks that only had a +3 to hit and 1d6+1 damage. It was still enough damage to keep that player down for the entire fight despite all her defenses. You cannot account for the randomness of dice rolls and HP will be low enough at early levels for all but the most niche builds that lucky rolls can kill. Sometimes players die due to bad encounter and monster design, other times players die from a string of bad rolls. I do think giving an orc a Falcata and calling it a CR 1/3 is too much, but in my experience those encounters are the exception, not the norm.
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Jeff,
I wholly agree that in a melee slugfest, the squishies are going to take a pounding from the bruisers.
In the above example a party was on a tight little boat with a higher then them level threat, who using his superior CMB, knocked a party bruiser off the boat, then used a +3 effective weapon (18,000gp) to slaughter a bunch of squishies and a bruiser, the exact method of which happened to be flashy criticals over a few rounds.
It may not be a TPK, but it is a scenario badly balanced against a party of individually weaker PC's. A DM could do it faster and worse with less gold value: 3x1500gp 10HD necklace of fireball beads on 3 crappy npcs would simply blank the party in 1 round.
The meta question is: should low level characters face 1-shot kill effects commonly, particularly in the form of some of the better weapons in the game?
My answer is: yes, as long as the DM is teaching them before they get 1-shot what it is that can 1-shot them and why.
Because there are assigned checks for magic/planes/nature, people check those things often before and in combat. Weapons don't have an assigned check, because it's assumed that a martial proficiency character can identify any weapon.
This creates a disconnect between the player, who might not realize that the dude on the raft is wielding a weapon that is prone to 1HKO, and the PC, who knows immediately and if they were actually in control, would be much more careful or act more desperately.
Solving that disconnect is paramount for the player and DM.
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To be fair, Gortus is just an insanely lucky NPC. He has since joined their crew...and he still crits EVERY. SINGLE. TIME. he swings his Falcata when something boards the boat to attack them.
In the last combat he OHKO'd two CR 4 Wreckers with that damn Falcata, and mercilessly slaughtered a "convert" (who beat the shit out of one of the crew members with relative ease, though didn't drop him. And shoved the Soulkife off the boat again.) who turned traitor once the PCs left the boat with a lucky crit before that.
It's fascinating to watch the dice (which usually roll TERRIBLY) go out of their way to bend the laws of probability in this NPCs favor.
He currently has a 6 hit, 6 crit, 6 kills streak going, and he's not allowed to join the PCs off the boat for any reason.
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This is a complex issue.
See, I don't think it is a complex issue. My argument is that low-level Pathfinder shouldn't be setup like rocket tag. 1-2 hits should only disable d6 classes. Now, to keep battles interesting and challenging, increase the number of enemies.
More enemies equates to a higher amount of hits, but a lower amount of crits (assuming you switch them to rare/weak crit weapons). Or, to put it another way, if the enemies are going to do 40 total points of damage over the course of a 4 round battle, it's better that they do it in 10 hits (4 damage each) than 2 critical hits for 20 damage each. 40 damage is still going to result in one or more characters getting knocked out, but it's going to reduce the odds of some of them getting instantly, permanently killed.