Calistrian afterlife and Anti-paladins


Lost Omens Campaign Setting General Discussion

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So, as Inner Sea Gods puts out, there are Calistrian anti-paladins, chaotic evil bringers of vengeance basically. They're accepted and happily supported by the goddess.

Now, Calistria's realm is also noted as being within Elysium, the chaotic good outer plane.

So, say you have this stand-up, perfect Calistrian anti-paladin who follows the code perfectly, never fails her goddess or her church, and dies of old age having lived a perfect CE Calistrian life as an anti-paladin.

Does her soul go to the Abyss, or does it go to her reward in Calistria's realm in Elysium? In other words, are all anti-paladins of Calistria let into a good plane, or are they basically betrayed by their goddess after a life of loyalty and if so, how the bloody hell do the good gods not kick her out of Elysium as there is no way that could possibly be considered neutral, let alone good.


ISG says that all faithful go to the realm of their god, and that Calistria is a special case. So yes, the anti-paladin goes to her realm within Elysium, but not to Elysium proper.


GreenDragon1133 wrote:
ISG says that all faithful go to the realm of their god, and that Calistria is a special case. So yes, the anti-paladin goes to her realm within Elysium, but not to Elysium proper.

Ah, I must've missed that. Wow, that's the way to be CE then. "I'm gonna murder, rape and pillage and so long as I otherwise follow my goddess of sex and revenge, I get the best afterlife ever."


Eh - not quite. He's in Calistria's domain... which means he's surrounded by duplicitous backstabbers out for themselves.

Plus if all he does is the MDK style of CE, then he's likely not going to be following Calistria's code all that closely.


Mark Sweetman wrote:

Eh - not quite. He's in Calistria's domain... which means he's surrounded by duplicitous backstabbers out for themselves.

Plus if all he does is the MDK style of CE, then he's likely not going to be following Calistria's code all that closely.

Calistria is about revenge, not betrayal... And most anti-paladins of hers are so far as I can just about the more extreme and brutal versions of vengeance. Possibly sexually oriented though, like raping a man that crossed you instead of murdering him.


Myrryr wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Eh - not quite. He's in Calistria's domain... which means he's surrounded by duplicitous backstabbers out for themselves.

Plus if all he does is the MDK style of CE, then he's likely not going to be following Calistria's code all that closely.

Calistria is about revenge, not betrayal... And most anti-paladins of hers are so far as I can just about the more extreme and brutal versions of vengeance. Possibly sexually oriented though, like raping a man that crossed you instead of murdering him.

Except Calistria is extremely against rape that I would imagine even her anti-paladins would not get away with it.


Expect table variance about what people think gods are all about...

However Calistria's Anti-Paladin code includes these two lines: My life is my path, and none will sway me from it.
I devote myself to the pursuit of my passions.

To my eyes that shows a commitment to something greater than just kill slay plunder, etc.

And the Goddess of Trickery surely has at least a healthy portion of backstabbery going on in the background.


Hey, if Gorum's antipaladins go to his realm in that same Chaotic Good Elysium, I don't see why hers can't.


Oh, they'd certainly go there. Just like Norgorber's evil followers going to his realm in Axis.

They just need to be genuine followers and not merely paying lip-service.


John Kretzer wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Eh - not quite. He's in Calistria's domain... which means he's surrounded by duplicitous backstabbers out for themselves.

Plus if all he does is the MDK style of CE, then he's likely not going to be following Calistria's code all that closely.

Calistria is about revenge, not betrayal... And most anti-paladins of hers are so far as I can just about the more extreme and brutal versions of vengeance. Possibly sexually oriented though, like raping a man that crossed you instead of murdering him.
Except Calistria is extremely against rape that I would imagine even her anti-paladins would not get away with it.

a

Isnt there an islanf of calistrins in the shackles that badically rape intruders?


Mavrickindigo wrote:
John Kretzer wrote:
Myrryr wrote:
Mark Sweetman wrote:

Eh - not quite. He's in Calistria's domain... which means he's surrounded by duplicitous backstabbers out for themselves.

Plus if all he does is the MDK style of CE, then he's likely not going to be following Calistria's code all that closely.

Calistria is about revenge, not betrayal... And most anti-paladins of hers are so far as I can just about the more extreme and brutal versions of vengeance. Possibly sexually oriented though, like raping a man that crossed you instead of murdering him.
Except Calistria is extremely against rape that I would imagine even her anti-paladins would not get away with it.

a

Isnt there an islanf of calistrins in the shackles that badically rape intruders?

There is a Island where they say they worship Calistria...but there is also a strange ancient temple on the Island...my guess is the people of the Island are fooled into thinking they are following Calistria and actually worship one of the Elder Gods or some other evil entity.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Evil can work in more subtle ways than outright violence all the time.
Someone who only follows his own passions and whims, ignoring the needs, wishes or even rights of others can be just as chaotic evil.
And i think that´s a pretty good use of an Antipaladin, making the class a lot more playable.


Hayato Ken wrote:

Evil can work in more subtle ways than outright violence all the time.

Someone who only follows his own passions and whims, ignoring the needs, wishes or even rights of others can be just as chaotic evil.
And i think that´s a pretty good use of an Antipaladin, making the class a lot more playable.

That is a good interpretation. I've been struggling to figure out how the antipaladin can be used feasibly, since the classes code seems to require it to be more randomly violent than a typical demon.


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In the words of Tyrion, Calistria's realm is the land of boobs and wine.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

There´s a lot more to Calistria than that.


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Hayato Ken wrote:

There´s a lot more to Calistria than that.

Good point. Boobs, wine, and wasps.


Echo Vining wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

Evil can work in more subtle ways than outright violence all the time.

Someone who only follows his own passions and whims, ignoring the needs, wishes or even rights of others can be just as chaotic evil.
And i think that´s a pretty good use of an Antipaladin, making the class a lot more playable.
That is a good interpretation. I've been struggling to figure out how the antipaladin can be used feasibly, since the classes code seems to require it to be more randomly violent than a typical demon.

If it helps, keep in mind that the Calistrian antipaladin code (which you can view here, just scroll down), is not in addition to the default antipaladin code. It replaces the standard antipaladin code.

I'd say biggest obligation of a Calistrian antipaladin is the mandate for vengeance. A Calistrian antipaladin cannot let something slide, and the antipaladin is expected to take care of it herself.


Zhangar wrote:
Echo Vining wrote:
Hayato Ken wrote:

Evil can work in more subtle ways than outright violence all the time.

Someone who only follows his own passions and whims, ignoring the needs, wishes or even rights of others can be just as chaotic evil.
And i think that´s a pretty good use of an Antipaladin, making the class a lot more playable.
That is a good interpretation. I've been struggling to figure out how the antipaladin can be used feasibly, since the classes code seems to require it to be more randomly violent than a typical demon.

If it helps, keep in mind that the Calistrian antipaladin code (which you can view here, just scroll down), is not in addition to the default antipaladin code. It replaces the standard antipaladin code.

I'd say biggest obligation of a Calistrian antipaladin is the mandate for vengeance. A Calistrian antipaladin cannot let something slide, and the antipaladin is expected to take care of it herself.

Yar. Which is too say that a Calistrian Anti-paladin basically just has it made. Indulge in everything you want, make sure you get vengeance (which you already wanted anyway), be lustful, be respectful to wasps (and seriously, who doesn't respect wasps?) and then go onto what's basically paradise when you do die a probably early death.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Calistrian temples are not only places of "pleasure".
Quite often and especially when there are elves, they are also like thieves guildes and rumor/secrets brokers places.
There´s also an organisation called the Wasp Queens.
Calistria´s domains are Chaos, Charm, Knowledge, Luck, Trickery.
Therefore things like personal freedom, gaining knowledge, revealing secrets, adventuring, and elaborate pranks are her thing too.

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

There's a place in Pharasma's realm for false souls (i.e. people that are not of the same alignment as the god they worship)

James Jacobs warned in another thread that the one step rule, while great from a gaming perspective, can have serious story implications on a character's soul upon his/her death...

I would certainly imagine that this would apply to antipaladins in regards to Elysium. Pharasma be like, "where you going? No i said THIS way!"

James also mentioned that Golarion gods don't gain power if they gain more worshippers i.e. no mortal world arms race for souls necessary. I could certainly imagine Calistria turning away from an antipaladins soul upon its death.. "Thanks that was great. Hope you liked all the free sex and booze. Now i can't have you storming around my nice wittle rose garden in Elysium. You have my thanks! Now gloriously go take your revenge on other souls of your choosing be they in the abyss or wherever Pharasma deems fit! Go travel the Great Beyond in my honor and paint whatever you like in a deep shade of crimson!"


^This points out something messed up: Why is it that Calistria, Gorum, Norgorber, and Milani (at least) can have realms that are significantly off (in some cases by more than 1 step) from their alignment, but any worshipper of theirs who is likewise off in alignment is considered a candidate for Groetus feed?

More mechanically speaking, this problem would be mitigated (not entirely solved) if Paladins and Antipaladins weren't restricted to the Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil poles. Instead, Holy Warriors (and Philosophical Warriors like Hellknights) of various alignments should exist, and should be prestige classes (again like Hellknights, but with variants of non-Lawful and even Chaotic alignments).


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Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

There's a place in Pharasma's realm for false souls (i.e. people that are not of the same alignment as the god they worship)

James Jacobs warned in another thread that the one step rule, while great from a gaming perspective, can have serious story implications on a character's soul upon his/her death...

I would certainly imagine that this would apply to antipaladins in regards to Elysium. Pharasma be like, "where you going? No i said THIS way!"

James also mentioned that Golarion gods don't gain power if they gain more worshippers i.e. no mortal world arms race for souls necessary. I could certainly imagine Calistria turning away from an antipaladins soul upon its death.. "Thanks that was great. Hope you liked all the free sex and booze. Now i can't have you storming around my nice wittle rose garden in Elysium. You have my thanks! Now gloriously go take your revenge on other souls of your choosing be they in the abyss or wherever Pharasma deems fit! Go travel the Great Beyond in my honor and paint whatever you like in a deep shade of crimson!"

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.

Using evil creatures to reach your goals is perharps not a good act, but could certainly be qualified as a neutral act. Neutral characters are usually oriented towards a certain goal or portfolio, and probably don't really consider the good or evil ramifications as long as goal is attained.

Let's take a fictional character devoted to clinical research of drug X. Good researcher wants to develop drug x to cure untold thousands of a certain affliction; Evil researcher wants to develop drug x to gain control of populations and would not flinch at spreading the affliction so demand for drug x increases; Neutral researcher wants to develop drug x because he likes a good puzzle / problem-solving opportunity and wants to advance his field. If Neutral researcher has to deal with his Evil researcher counterpart from another town because he has an abundance of a certain reagent he requires, so be it.

Calistria could employ antipaladins on the basis that they're really good and effective at seeking revenge, and that's one of the things she needs at times. I don't see her obligated to provide them an afterlife in Elysium. I don't think any religion would provide such guarantees. Even the most outwardly appearing Lawful Good town official could be in for a surprise by the time they meet Pharasma: Man heavily involved in Iomedae or Erastil faith: "Ok, yes, I cheated on my wife all these years but that was for the greater good!!! my affairs with the castle maids helped me stay sharp, happy and helped me acquire all kinds of information that helped me steer policy towards the good of the people!!"
Pharasma: "Sir, you're not going to Heaven. You wouldn't like it there. Trust me."

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.

Also, the gods themselves are probably not restrained like mortals in terms of questions of morality... There's even a mythic power that lets you transcend the concept of alignment.


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Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.

It's not actually Calistria turning the Antipaladin down. Pharasma is the one who makes that call.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
QuidEst wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.
It's not actually Calistria turning the Antipaladin down. Pharasma is the one who makes that call.

My point exactly. And that's totally in Calistria's nature to exploit that loophole, IMO. She strikes me as a backstabbing little goddess...

Look, no one would blink twice at the thought of Chaotic Good adventurers serving Calistria. These might spend their afterlife in Elysium, sure, but they might be barred from Calistria's rose gardens and might have to spend their eternity drinking in one of Cayden Cailean's taverns. Not as bad as being a antipaladin going to the Abyss, but that's just a lucky break based on the realms of Calistria and Gorum landing in Elysium somehow.

Liberty's Edge

Myrryr wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

There's a place in Pharasma's realm for false souls (i.e. people that are not of the same alignment as the god they worship)

James Jacobs warned in another thread that the one step rule, while great from a gaming perspective, can have serious story implications on a character's soul upon his/her death...

I would certainly imagine that this would apply to antipaladins in regards to Elysium. Pharasma be like, "where you going? No i said THIS way!"

James also mentioned that Golarion gods don't gain power if they gain more worshippers i.e. no mortal world arms race for souls necessary. I could certainly imagine Calistria turning away from an antipaladins soul upon its death.. "Thanks that was great. Hope you liked all the free sex and booze. Now i can't have you storming around my nice wittle rose garden in Elysium. You have my thanks! Now gloriously go take your revenge on other souls of your choosing be they in the abyss or wherever Pharasma deems fit! Go travel the Great Beyond in my honor and paint whatever you like in a deep shade of crimson!"

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.

Betrayal is Chaotic, not Evil.

Betrayal is an act of dishonor. If you look at the alignment rules honor is listed under the Law section of the Alignment chapter not Good. Therefore betrayal would be a chaotic act not an evil act.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Exactly why not all cheating husbands and wives are necessarily evil... it's just that they've taken a step or two from the Lawful axis... :)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:


James Jacobs warned in another thread that the one step rule, while great from a gaming perspective, can have serious story implications on a character's soul upon his/her death...

Please note that he said CAN have, not MUST have. It all depends on what kind of world story you the DM want to write. And that same DM can write a different story for each character. JJ is not going to lead a squad of Paizo Police to bust down your door to check if you're running your world the way he mandates it be run.

I myself don't generally answer those questions unless players put themselves in a position where they can ask them.


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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^This points out something messed up: Why is it that Calistria, Gorum, Norgorber, and Milani (at least) can have realms that are significantly off (in some cases by more than 1 step) from their alignment, but any worshipper of theirs who is likewise off in alignment is considered a candidate for Groetus feed?

More mechanically speaking, this problem would be mitigated (not entirely solved) if Paladins and Antipaladins weren't restricted to the Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil poles. Instead, Holy Warriors (and Philosophical Warriors like Hellknights) of various alignments should exist, and should be prestige classes (again like Hellknights, but with variants of non-Lawful and even Chaotic alignments).

They do exist. They are called Warpriests.

Grand Lodge

IMHO,An Anti-Paladin of Calistra is a special agent of the deity, and Chances that if the character faithfully executed (pun intended) their calling, Calistra would simply pardon the soul upon arrival to boneyard. Chances are the character wouldn't even be judged by Pharasma, it would simply be considered faithful and move right into Calistra's afterlife. But that is my opinion.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

JJ already said every creature that dies is judged by Pharasma. This could include gods... sorry but Calistria's pardon means nothing. It might be used as "exhibit A" if ownership of the soul is debated within Pharasma's Spire's Inner Courts, but in my opinion Calistria would not even put a claim on that soul and bother putting a lawyer on this...


I think you're misunderstanding what a "false soul" is.

It's not someone who's merely one step off from the deity; it's someone who completely misunderstands the deity.

For Calistria, someone worshipping her and holding her out as a love goddess would be such a "false soul" - Calistria thinks true love is b@&*~#&*. She ain't no love goddess; she's a lovemaking goddess.

Essentially, Pharasma can look upon a soul upon death and advise "you got it so utterly wrong you'd actually be toxic to your god's divine realm."

Grand Lodge

Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
JJ already said every creature that dies is judged by Pharasma. This could include gods... sorry but Calistria's pardon means nothing. It might be used as "exhibit A" if ownership of the soul is debated within Pharasma's Spire's Inner Courts, but in my opinion Calistria would not even put a claim on that soul and bother putting a lawyer on this...

And you notice I said that I was stating my opinion. my opinion doesn't trump any one else opinion much less Paizo's.

It does worth mentioning that its seems to mention though that not everyone gets judged in The Great Beyond book.But Paizo might have changed their minds. All in all, this doesn't come up at my table so i don't have a dog in this fight, so what ever Paizo says is right is fine by me.


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GreenDragon1133 wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:

^This points out something messed up: Why is it that Calistria, Gorum, Norgorber, and Milani (at least) can have realms that are significantly off (in some cases by more than 1 step) from their alignment, but any worshipper of theirs who is likewise off in alignment is considered a candidate for Groetus feed?

More mechanically speaking, this problem would be mitigated (not entirely solved) if Paladins and Antipaladins weren't restricted to the Lawful Good and Chaotic Evil poles. Instead, Holy Warriors (and Philosophical Warriors like Hellknights) of various alignments should exist, and should be prestige classes (again like Hellknights, but with variants of non-Lawful and even Chaotic alignments).

They do exist. They are called Warpriests.

And as others have pointed out elsewhere on these boards, Warpriests don't fully cut it for this purpose.


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Comming back onto the antipaladins not necessarily getting int Callistras realm is actually pretty sensible. Just think - a soul used to vengeance gets turned down ny its goddess, probably sent to the abyss with what its used to and from there..it's out for REVENGE..coincidentally that's just in line with said goddess anyway. A gimmick truly worthy of a deity with trickery in her portfolio - tricking a faithful soul i to pursuing vengeance in both life and death, being that's what the thing knows and does best. Might even be seen as a true reward by the soul itself..in far retrospex ;)

"hello, I see you like vengeance so faithfully that I'll give you a reason to seek what you love so much for all eternity - to the abyss with you!" doesn't matter much if thats said by Calli or Pharasma


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.
It's not actually Calistria turning the Antipaladin down. Pharasma is the one who makes that call.

My point exactly. And that's totally in Calistria's nature to exploit that loophole, IMO. She strikes me as a backstabbing little goddess...

Look, no one would blink twice at the thought of Chaotic Good adventurers serving Calistria. These might spend their afterlife in Elysium, sure, but they might be barred from Calistria's rose gardens and might have to spend their eternity drinking in one of Cayden Cailean's taverns. Not as bad as being a antipaladin going to the Abyss, but that's just a lucky break based on the realms of Calistria and Gorum landing in Elysium somehow.

There is a WORLD of difference between "I had sex with someone else dear spouse" and "You served me for your entire life, worshipped me, followed all of my rules to the letter... and I'm just going to watch you get sent to the Abyss and be tortured for all of eternity."

That. Is. Evil. Period. You cannot make any objective argument that betraying a worshipper who is in all respects perfectly following your religion and rules with not a single mistake ever, in their entire life, as being neutral.

Plus it's already been stated that Pharasma sends faithful to their deities realm, not the aligned plane. Otherwise Calistria would have almost NO worshippers in her realm because her realm is in Elysium, not the Maelstrom.

On top of that, she simply wouldn't have any anti-paladins because no one would ever follow a goddess who did that. "Follow my religion to be tortured forever!" yeah, what a great slogan. At least a demon lord can promise you a place in their realm if that's the case because they actually have power in the Abyss.

It simply doesn't make any logical sense. It'd be like a jewish person serving in the Nazi army, not because he thinks that by serving he'll be left alone, but serving despite knowing that everything he does, he's still going to end up in the gas chamber at Auschwitz, except worse because this is his immortal soul, not a 10 minute death by mustard gas. And you can't argue that every single one is just a supermasochist. Those follow Zon-Kuthon of course.


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Of course, it could be that Calistria also has a secret Abyssal realm that we don't know about, where her Antipaladins go to become some kind of abyssal Knights. Instead of being tortured in the Abyss, they get to DO the torture (at least for the most part -- in a free-for-all like the Abyss, they would have to stay on their toes to avoid becoming fodder for an even greater torturer).

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Myrryr wrote:

There is a WORLD of difference between "I had sex with someone else dear spouse" and "You served me for your entire life, worshipped me, followed all of my rules to the letter... and I'm just going to watch you get sent to the Abyss and be tortured for all of eternity."

That. Is. Evil. Period. You cannot make any objective argument that betraying a worshipper who is in all respects perfectly following your religion and rules with not a single mistake ever, in their entire life, as being neutral.

Look. They are antipaladins. Chaotic Evil to the core. They have committed countless atrocities, murders and killed countless servants of good. Their souls are TAINTED! they do not belong in ELYSIUM! Period.


Then they don't exist to Calistria. Yet the Inner Sea gods says they do. Or are you saying every Calistria anti-paladin has an Int of 2? Because no sentient creature would ever do that (that didn't worship Zon-Kuthon).

Sovereign Court

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Maybe they don't know or care where they'll go in the afterlife. Some evil wizards even sell their souls for extra juice in their current mortal form. Maybe Calistria gives them perks here in the mortal life and they full know where they'll end up and embrace that?

I'm loathe to use real life examples, but has the threat "You'll go to Hell if you keep sinning" worked for everyone so far? Do you think every criminal or CEO of dubious ethics *always* worry about their afterlife when making life decisions?

Edit: and I say this while being fully aware that most Golarion mortals know their gods exist for sure, and that my example is flawed somehow; but if you dial back to the middle ages where most folks thought God was real and they were burning people at the stake for "sorcery", then I dare say that fear of God was still insufficient to keep everyone in line, and that some men did evil things anyway...


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It has been stated plenty of times in thread already: the antipaladin's soul goes to the domain, not the plane. God domains do not have to perfectly match a plane in terms of alignment. There's no reason to believe a faithful antipaladin would go to the Abyss under any circumstances - it is clearly stated they go to the relevant domain of the god they worshipped and only unclaimed souls are left to go to the plane of their specific alignment.

It's not just an antipaladin issue here anyway. Any CE follower of Calistra is going to be suffering the same issue --- and the vast majority of calistra followers are CN, which is still a very poor fit for elysium if you think about it. Gorum also has exactly the same issue.

Groetus is mostly not relevant here. JJ was not saying in that thread that being one step away in alignment means you get groetus'd -- although they may be at greater risk. That is reserved for failing to faithfully follow your god's example, either by fundamentally misunderstanding their tenents or paying only lip-service to them. An antipaladin is not necessarily doing either.

An example of someone destined for the big ol' G would be a CE worshipper of Iomedae who kills innocents because he thinks all life is tainted (fundamental misunderstanding). You could even be the same alignment and fail - for example, LE worshipper of Zon Kuthon who enjoys torturing others but is too cowardly to face any pain himself, avoiding it where possible (IE lip-service only).

*edit*

A much more reasonable approach here that might reconcile people who have an issue with this, is that the souls of the faithful are likely to drift towards the underlying alignment and philosophies of the god's domain over time. Just like a LN soul cast to the hells will eventually be reforged into a LE devil, so will that antipaladin over the eons be recrafted into a CN petitioner more suitable for calistra's needs.

"You have served Vengeance well, young antipaladin - but that time is now over. Rest, and be free of the thirst for blood that ensured your survival in the mortal. You must.. think differently if you are to survive here."

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber
Blakmane wrote:
"You have served Vengeance well, young antipaladin - but that time is now over. Rest, and be free...

...and the antipaladin instantly grew an 70's style mustache, and a weird bard simultaneously started playing a large bass lute somewhere behind the nearest rose bush... :)

Liberty's Edge

Myrryr wrote:
Purple Dragon Knight wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
Myrryr wrote:

Yeah, problem with that. There'd be no Calistrian anti-paladins and Calistria would become chaotic evil for effectively betraying someone who put their faith and worship in her. That is NOT a neutral act no matter how you cut it.

So that doesn't work.
It's not actually Calistria turning the Antipaladin down. Pharasma is the one who makes that call.

My point exactly. And that's totally in Calistria's nature to exploit that loophole, IMO. She strikes me as a backstabbing little goddess...

Look, no one would blink twice at the thought of Chaotic Good adventurers serving Calistria. These might spend their afterlife in Elysium, sure, but they might be barred from Calistria's rose gardens and might have to spend their eternity drinking in one of Cayden Cailean's taverns. Not as bad as being a antipaladin going to the Abyss, but that's just a lucky break based on the realms of Calistria and Gorum landing in Elysium somehow.

There is a WORLD of difference between "I had sex with someone else dear spouse" and "You served me for your entire life, worshipped me, followed all of my rules to the letter... and I'm just going to watch you get sent to the Abyss and be tortured for all of eternity."

That. Is. Evil. Period. You cannot make any objective argument that betraying a worshipper who is in all respects perfectly following your religion and rules with not a single mistake ever, in their entire life, as being neutral.

Plus it's already been stated that Pharasma sends faithful to their deities realm, not the aligned plane. Otherwise Calistria would have almost NO worshippers in her realm because her realm is in Elysium, not the Maelstrom.

On top of that, she simply wouldn't have any anti-paladins because no one would ever follow a goddess who did that. "Follow my religion to be tortured forever!" yeah, what a great slogan. At least a demon lord can promise you a place in their realm if that's the case...

While I disagree with Calistria's Anti-Paladins being sent to the Abyss, they would go to Calistria's realm, in my opinion. What you are describing is Chaotic, not Evil.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

I just don't get why antipaladins would not be overjoyed at going to the Abyss... I mean, that's where they could serve as a 'rather well trained servant' for a succubus no?

"Antipaladin: I hope I get the day-long adult package and get sent to the Abyss... none of that softcore Elysium crap for me!"


More, the antipaladin turns into a wriggly worm thing (larva) and then from there eventually turns into a demon.

The antipaladin may well enjoy its future as a vrock, incubus, or succubus, but it probably wouldn't have minded becoming something else in Elysium instead, and would certainly have better company there...

Also, I suspect Calistria's corner of Elysium isn't terribly softcore (though I'm sure it can provide that) =P

Sovereign Court

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Pathfinder Pawns Subscriber

Sorry, but "Antipaladin in Elysium" would be a great title for a short story... I'd love to read how that guy reacts to a bunch of talking bunny rabbits offering him tea all the time. I can hear the "SNAP!" from here, after only a few days of this he would go completely bananas and start rampaging through Elysium tarrasque-style until a bunch of Azatas put him out of his misery.

Yeah, great afterlife for an antipaladin! (for a few days anyway...)


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The anti-paladin in Elysium would be a hilariously fun campaign. Just a sandbox with the entire goal of 'don't get kicked out or killed by Brijidine or Veranallia'. See how much fun you can have pushing the envelope while your goddess watches on, amused.


Purple Dragon Knight wrote:

Maybe they don't know or care where they'll go in the afterlife. Some evil wizards even sell their souls for extra juice in their current mortal form. Maybe Calistria gives them perks here in the mortal life and they full know where they'll end up and embrace that?

I'm loathe to use real life examples, but has the threat "You'll go to Hell if you keep sinning" worked for everyone so far? Do you think every criminal or CEO of dubious ethics *always* worry about their afterlife when making life decisions?
{. . .}

At least some of them are probably banking (and in some cases I DO MEAN BANKING) on getting at least a middle management job in Hell/Abaddon/Abyss.

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