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Okay Gang--
I need your help. I've never built a gunslinger before, and I need your guidance. We have a young teen player who told us he doesn't want to play his human paladin anymore. (I think he got tired of being lawful all the time. )
"I want to be a Tengu with a crossbow!"
Yup. That's all the information I have. He wants to be a tengu, shoot a crossbow, and kill everything in sight. To this information I will add: he has trouble keeping track of spells and odd special abilities. I'd like this build to be something fairly simple to run. Bonus points if we can find a way for that Tengu to glide through the air while shooting eveything in sight.
We are all 10th level. Stats are generous. Assume standard wealth by level, though we have a fairly generous GM, so if there's a special magic item that will really help things out, tell me.
I am not adverse to multi-classing that Bolt Ace with other classes, but what we bring in needs to be easy for a kid who is somewhat distractible to understand. (I was considering 5 levels of inquisitor for the banes, but inquisitors are complex and have too many moving parts in play, and so I rejected the idea.)
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Stats:
The GM has a weird way of configuring stats. It's not a weighted point buy system. At first level, the attribute stats need to total 84 before racials and level bonuses kick in. No stat above 17 (19 with racials). No dumps below 7.
So here's what I'm thinking. At 10th level, this should allow a Tengu gunslinger to have Wis and Dex both at 20 before magic items are added.
STR: 12 DEX: 20 CON: 14 INT: 14 WIS: 20 CHA: 8
I only have strength that high for carrying capacity. On to this base, how would you build the best simple tengu cross bow murder hobo that you can? Would you cross class this bolt ace with fighter, ranger or monk for extra feats?
Hmm
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While I love the idea of a Tengu that sprouts extra arms like a Hindu deity, I think that alchemist is too complicated for this particular player. (Besides we already have another confused alchemist in this game. Adding a second would be painful.)
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So... talking to our player (let's call him "Blackwing"), he definitely wants glide. I know that boots of levitation could launch him in the air so he can glide. Can you guys think of other magic items that might help him do this? He wants to glide and shoot.
Glide is an alternate racial trait for Tengus, last I checked. It replaces Gifted Linguist, but if this player isn't worried about languages, that shouldn't be an issue.
He could also take the Tengu Wings feat, though that won't be until 5th level.
two levels of alchemist dip, that and a feat net you two vestigial arms. you probably only need one, but two looks cooler
the rules say the arms don't give you any more attacks or actions than you already had. so fine. you can TWF with light crossbows no problem, it's just that firing one-handed nets you a -4 to the attack. the extra arms negate the -4 penalty, and help with reloading.
you also get +Dex mutagen, which might be nice, and a few cool extracts, which is also nice. another feat buys you 'explosive missile', something you can use to load alchemist bombs onto crossbow bolts (though it's a standard action, not awesome)
I might make this build myself, come to think of it. Wonder how much the GM will hate it if I make it with a standard gunslinger. Or perhaps with a mount. Possibilities are endless.
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I built a dual wielding hand crossbow bolt ace, that is pretty devastating. Combine it with Splitting Bolt and it's gets insane...
at 20th level, the weapons look like this:
Hand crossbow (light)
+19/+19/+14/+9/+4
17-20/x3
TYPE RANGE AMMUNITION DAMAGE
P 30' 1d4+20
Hand crossbow (light, offhand)
+19/+19/+14/+9
17-20/x3
TYPE RANGE AMMUNITION DAMAGE
P 30' 1d4+20
combined with Splitting bolt, damage is tripled.....
how nasty is that?
so if all bolts hit, 540 damage before dice are rolled.
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I built a dual wielding hand crossbow bolt ace, that is pretty devastating. Combine it with Splitting Bolt and it's gets insane...
at 20th level, the weapons look like this:
Hand crossbow (light)
+19/+19/+14/+9/+4
17-20/x3
TYPE RANGE AMMUNITION DAMAGE
P 30' 1d4+20Hand crossbow (light, offhand)
+19/+19/+14/+9
17-20/x3
TYPE RANGE AMMUNITION DAMAGE
P 30' 1d4+20combined with Splitting bolt, damage is tripled.....
how nasty is that?
so if all bolts hit, 540 damage before dice are rolled.
Splitting bolt doesn't work like that
Neither the attack roll nor the damage of the smaller bolts can be affected by any special abilities of the wielder or crossbow.
Thus you are probably looking at 1d8+1 from the special bolts. 1d10 if from a heavy.
Thus, no Deadly Aim, no Point Blank, and I am pretty sure no Crossbow Training as they are all special abilities of the wielder. No magical properties from the bow itself either. Only the +1 from the arrow itself. If you managed to get more powerful ammunition, such as the flame arrow spell, that would apply.
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There are all these builds focused on TWFing crossbows...but just using a single crossbow is fine. He gets dex to damage (making him fantastically SAD stat wise since he doesn't need the str most archers use), and archery is one of the most powerful styles anyway. With this, he is an archer with a 19-20/x4 crit (since crossbow training increases the crit modifier).
Just use a regular archery build, and throw in rapid reload for his preferred weapon (it takes hand crossbows and light crossbows down to a free action).
Maybe leave room at level 11 to take signature deed. That allows you to reduce the cost of a deed by 1 grit (when it costs 1, it doesn't cost grit, but needs you to have 1 grit to keep it active). I kinda like vigilant shooter for that. It makes it so that shooting your crossbow doesn't draw an AoO. There are feats that also do this...but this can be a simple method using less feats (more feats for basic archery stuff). Combined with the always on deed that allows reloads to avoid AoOs too, this bolt slinger could practically act like a melee character.
Onto other discussion...an idea of the personalty for this character? I just want to say... the idea of an old, gruff crow cowboy is appealing. You could allow this player to explore other ways to be lawful other than the highly restrictive honor bound method of the paladin. Just imagine a tengu sherif with the GRAVELIST VOICE EVER.
"We ain't got many rules around these part, but I sure as hell stick by them. Don't go hurtin' folks, or try to take things from people who are just tryin' to live right. As long as ya don't start no trouble, there won't be no trouble. Break those rules...and well...I will personally put another hole that that fool head to let the stupid drain out"
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Yeah... I got a back story out of him.
Here's the TL/DR version:
He was a loyal soldier abused by an emperor who did not use his talents well. He went rogue, fighting the evil empire, and finally traveled to far off lands when someone who loved him betrayed him. And he loves art, so he wants a craft / artistic skill.
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I heard that there were changes to Signature Deed that made it no longer useful to stay a Bolt Ace beyond Level 5. Is that true?
Actually, what were the changes? Because Signature Deed looks like a beautiful thing, especially if Sharp Shooter will allow a Bolt Ace to target Touch AC at the next level of play. Darkwing would LOVE that.
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Just playing a straight fighter who uses a crossbow can be interesting, but with stats like that it makes me want to make a Sohei Monk build. They get flurry of bows with Crossbows at level 6, never get surprised, and have all good saves, not to mention more skill points and perception as a class skill (Something that people fighting at a distance might need).
Back to my first point, here's a fighter build.
1. Point Blank Shot
2. Precise Shot
3. Deadly Aim
4. Weapon Focus
5. Weapon Specialization
6. Rapid Reload
7. Rapid Shot
8. Point Blank Master
9. Improved Critical
10. Crossbow Mastery
With Gloves of Dueling and a +3 Heavy Crossbow, he'll be at a +10BAB, +5Dex, +4Weapon Training, +1 feat -3 DA-2 RS... That's about a +18/+18/+13 at level 10 with 1d10+15 damage plus a 17-20 crit range. (I'm sure this can be boosted further with other equipment) Going further in, he'll be able to take Critical feats like Bleeding Critical and Stunning critical toward the end for extra fun. The great thing about Fighters is their huge number of feats and the fun trees you can only get with them. With the feats he has here, he can reload as a free action and fire in melee without provoking attacks of opportunity, so he never has to let go of his crossbow.
I heard that there were changes to Signature Deed that made it no longer useful to stay a Bolt Ace beyond Level 5. Is that true?
Actually, what were the changes? Because Signature Deed looks like a beautiful thing, especially if Sharp Shooter will allow a Bolt Ace to target Touch AC at the next level of play. Darkwing would LOVE that.
I don't know about signature deed in general... but unfortunately, while my mind also went to sharp shooter instantly, I later remembered the fact that you can't reduce its grit cost.
Sharp shooter specifically forbids lowering its grit cost down to 0 (and explicitly calls out signature deed). It will always cost 1 grit.
It is a balance thing- one of the main reasons gunslingers/guns are often get banned at some tables (besides flavor...which is minor, since pathfinder is a hodgepodge anyway) is because of the touch AC thing. If they allowed you to do that with signature deed, it would basically turn crossbows into guns (heck, even better, due to the crit thing with their crossbow training). Even the level prerequisite doesn't help, since the touch AC thing is even more of a problem at that level range (since most of the big beefy monsters rely on natural armor, which would get ignored- they are also big and low dex enough that they often have less than 10 touch AC). Since they basically built bolt slinger as a more palatable version of gunslinger for the tables that ban it, they can't have that.
So that is the basic balance- by forcing you to always use a resource (particularly a rather limited one like grit, which doesn't scale with level), it limits how often you can just instantly murder everything. You can still do it, but it is more of a nova thing with the grit cost, and level 11 novas should generally be that strong.
On the plus side though, it is actually rather easy to recover grit because of the crossbow's higher crit range. So it is somewhat easier to get grit for that trick.
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Hey Oterisk, lovely to see you stop by! I love it when I see my pbp buddies show up in other threads!
I'd love to add some monk to this mix, but Darkwing has told me that his Tengu is true neutral. On the other hand, if Signature Deed does not work with Sharp Shooter, we could do five levels of fighter with the Bolt Ace...
I am looking hard at feats and at gunslinger deeds right now.
EDITED in LIGHT of Lemeres's last post:
Okay, so Signature Deed does not work with Sharp Shooter. So after 5th or 6th level we multi-class, probably with fighter.
Hmm
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I think (Bolt Ace) (Gun Tank) Gunslinger 5 / (Base) Fighter 5 would be a pretty good level 10 build.
If carrying capacity is being watched carefully a strength of 12 Should -probably- be enough to stick with a light load, though an extra point or two would allow more breathing room.
Special gear of note:
Handy Haversack - 2k
Boots of Speed - 12k
Sash of the War Champion - 4k
Gloves of Dueling -15k
Mithral Full Plate - 10.5k
Darkwood Underwater Light Crossbow - 410
43900 gold total. leaving 18,090 gold (assuming 62000 lvl 10 Wealth by level). Plenty i feel left over for enchanting and filling out with standard belt/cloak/rings/amulets/headband/ whatever else
The plate, haversack, and bow would weigh 32 lbs, giving 11 lbs (assuming 12 str) left for equipment -not- in the haversack.
With the sash, Gun Tank, Fighter Armor Training the total dex to AC would be at +6, and would only increase from there with future levels. Dropping the Gun Tank archetype would be fine and still allows for full movement. An archetype like Weapon Master Fighter may be very suitable and appealing. Still allows for the gloves of dueling, but then you would likely want to drop Gun Tank Archetype and Sash of the War Champion, go with lighter armor. Replacing the Underwater Light Crossbow with a regular Light Crossbow would be fine as well.
Gliding and shooting the rules are silent on. If I was a GM, I would probably allow it with the caveat that the crossbow must be previously loaded, you fire one handed (-2 penalty), and then can't reload again while gliding. Switching out boots of speed for winged boots could be a fine choice if he wants to fly around shooting things. Especially if another source of haste is available.
Example feats:
lvl 1 - Point Blank Shot
lvl 3 - Precise Shot
lvl 5 - Deadly Aim
lvl 6 (fighter 1) - Weapon Focus (Underwater Light Crossbow)
lvl 7 - Rapid Shot
lvl 7 (fighter 2) - Rapid Reload (Underwater Light Crossbow)
lvl 9 - Improved Critical (Underwater Light Crossbow)
lvl 9 (fighter 4)- Weapon Specialization (Underwater Light Crossbow)
using conservative estimates of +1 magic weapon, 22 Dex, no other buffs.
to hit
+10 Bab, + 1 Magic Weapon, + 1 Weapon Focus, +6 dex, +3 Fighter Weapon Training, -2 Rapid Reload - 3 Deadly Aim
= +16 to hit (+17 w/in 30) = +16/+16/+11
(critting 17-20/x3)
Damage
+6 dex, + 1 Magic Weapon, +2 Weapon Specialization, + 6 Deadly Aim, +3 Fighter Weapon Training
= 1d8 + 18 (+19 w/in 30) damage per shot.
Things like haste just make the above better.
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My previously mentioned sorc has haste spell. I was actually looking at boots of levitation to get him launched in the air, and let him glide from there.
Yes, my sorc also has fly spell, but I'd rather he had an unlimited way to get in the air on his own power. Winged boots are nice, but aren't they pricey?
I'm also looking at Bracers of Falcon's Aim. So many magic items, so little time!
So... this is going to sound dumb. Can those underwater crossbows be used both above and below water?
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16k for the Winged Boots. A little bit more expensive then Boots of Speed but not out of range.
Bracers of Falcon's Aim would (technically) push his crit up to 17-20/x4 as a Bolt Ace. I would like to also point out many GMs ban this item, and it isn't allowed in PFS (for what I consider good reason, in my and many other's opinion the item is extremely underpriced for what it does). Still as this is a home game so if allowed, go for it. I would at least have a talk with the GM about the item and that controversy to get his thoughts.
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An underwater crossbow is from the Advanced Race Guide
An underwater crossbow functions like its normal counterpart above water, and can be used underwater. When fired underwater, the crossbow has a range increment of 20 feet. Anyone proficient with a normal crossbow can use an underwater crossbow.
I'd focus on the Light Crossbow (the underwater one if allowed). Lower levels I would probably carry around a Heavy Repeating, but you are already past that point. The Double Crossbow from the APG could be fun. But would require a much different mindset and build then I would want a younger kid to play that wants to just kill things. Would probably need to use things like Gravity Bow, Dead Shot or Vital Strike. The Crossbowman Fighter could also be very good with it.
The minotaur Double Crossbow is... interesting and RAW the most powerful by far. Lacks the wording about reloading. (Though both are technically called a "Double Crossbow" in Monster Classics Revisited as well as the Advance Players Guide, and some controversy about if the APG "Double Crossbow" replaced it completely) Without the restriction on reloading, you would be looking at 'double' the damage per hit, for only an additional -2 to hit per attack. If that is OP for your campaign would again be up to you to decide. If allowed, I would replace one of the feats for crossbow mastery. Also probably up the strength a bit for the character by at least a point, that sucker is heavy... even made out of darkwood.
Honestly I might just add Emerald Spire is not for children. I played with adults and everyone was getting pissed playing the levels of the spire. They can be quite brutal.
Also while it is simple enough for most, do you think he'd get frustrated keeping track of grit points? While it may not be out of his capabilities to, it may feel like a hassle for him. While I haven't looked at it there is a crossbowman fighter archetype.
You're letting him switch with only 3 levels to go?
Rather than Bolt Ace, you could consider Slayer 7/Horizon Walker 3. Grab Favored Terrain (Underground) from talents (called Terrain Mastery, not to be confused with the Horizon Walker's ability of the same name) and bump it once or twice, 2x Combat Style for Precise/Imp Precise, and then use HW for Terrain Dominance (Underground). The entire Emerald Spire should count as underground terrain, save for the first level. So, something like...
1: Rapid Reload
2: Combat Style (Precise)
3: Point Blank
4: Favored Terrain: Underground
5: Rapid Shot
6: Combat Style (Imp Precise)
7: Endurance
9: Extra Talent (Favored Terrain)
This will give Blackwing +8 hit/damage from Terrain Dominance, on top of all the other goodies (darkvision, blind-fight, initiative, stealth, perception...the list goes on). He can study as a swift action for +2 hit/damage, as well, and have up to 2 studied targets at a time. If he stealths with his ridiculous stealth mod (+8 favored terrain + 10 ranks + 3 class skill + 5 Dex + 2 racial = +23 at a minimum), he'll have the opportunity to open with sneak attack for bonus damage.
The alternative layout, which folks will probably like less:
1: Rapid Reload
2: Rapid Shot
3: Extra Talent (Favored Terrain)
4: Favored Terrain
5: Extra Talent (Favored Terrain)
6: Favored Terrain
7: Endurance
9: Extra Talent (Favored Terrain)
This version is +14 hit/damage - slightly lower chance to hit overall, but that's a big damage boost, as well as an additional +6 init, stealth, perception...
I usually don't recommend the FT cheese, but with your location and level, it's pretty awesome.