I know you never said they were - I was not trying to put words in your mouth, merely an observation that I felt was worth noting in a discussion on said 'sacred cows.'
Basically, that even the fundamentals of the mechanics are not fundamental to playing or enjoying the game.
|
I... Couldn't have a more opposite opinion than that, Charon. While 4e had roles they did it pretty differently from one another. I don't like the system for taking the gamist part of D&D to an extreme and bloating health to the point combat was the game, but unlike 3.pf the classes are good at what they do and are balanced across levels. Reducing roles to DPS, tank, and support was boring too.
I do agree that 4e was better balanced between classes. But it balanced in the most boring way possible - through symmetry. It's fine for 1v1 games, but especially in a co-op game it's deadly dull.
Every class got powers at the same levels of equivalent power level and similar style. (combat/utility/how often used etc)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You have the HP to withstand swimming through lava?
Lol nope. Silly martial not being a caster can just die for trying to use their class features.
IMHO: it is more prudent to take the rules as they are and figure out how that works in-world than taking preconceived notions about reality and changing the rules to match it. I also have more fun trying to figure out how a sci-fi thing could work rather than trying to construct a proof on why it wouldn't work.
@ Knitifine - well, lava does 10d6 (contact) to 20d6 (immersion) damage.
A normal human being only has about 4 to 6 HP, easily making exposure to lava an instant kill.
But high level adventurers are not normal human beings by any stretch. Even the "lowly" pure martial can still shred solid steel like tissue paper with his bare hands.
A high level barbarian or fighter that needs to spend two rounds fishing an artifact out of a lava pool suffers about 140 points of fire damage - enough to kill a normal human being about 30 times over - and emerges back out from his ultra-hot mud bath and moves on with his life.
Red and Gold dragon breath actually gets hotter than lava once the dragon's old enough.
Disturbingly enough, lava isn't that impressive in the Pathfinder universe - there are much worse things you can get exposed to and still survive. =P
Re 4E - while classes were symmetrical in power, the "sameness" issue got fixed by the first round of Power books and the PH II.
Even classes with similar roles (like paladin and fighter) played very differently, unless the players were deliberately trying to be similar.
Unfortunately, that "sameness" was very much a feature of the initial release, and thus part and parcel of the initial impression...
Scarred Witch Doctor.
Of course, now it is worthless to me.
Thanks Paizo!
I do agree that some kind of gas effect should come in to play, but not to the severity you suggest.
Well there are rules for smoke and simply being near lava would cause the following rules to go into play:
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves.
I do agree that some kind of gas effect should come in to play, but not to the severity you suggest.Well there are rules for smoke and simply being near lava would cause the following rules to go into play:
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves.
You know, this actually raises a really valid point.
All we ever do is 20D6 if you fall in, 2D6 if you touch it.
Don't fall in.
There should be a clause in the lava entry referencing that heat stuff quoted above.
Thank you for that!
(of course, if the GM wants, that bridge over lava could have a very strong breeze blowing across it, so you can have a risk free area over molten death, it's all up to you!)
There should be a clause in the lava entry referencing that heat stuff quoted above.
Not necessary actually, that is from heat dangers section, and lava is a subheading of that Same heat dangers section.
There should be a clause in the lava entry referencing that heat stuff quoted above.Not necessary actually, that is from heat dangers section, and lava is a subheading of that Same heat dangers section.
yes but I'm LAZY!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Lava is not nearly that bad. Being engulfed in a fireball is about as bad as walking on lava. It should kill you but doesn't if you are some sort of mythical badassOkay, no. You are wrong. Lava is molten rock and not only is the vapor off of it poison and sometimes hot enough to melt your lungs if you inhale, but having lava on you means your body is going to be destroyed in a matter of moments.
Just as the default combat rules don't cover having a single limb cut off I'm not gonna bother thinking up something for if you someone get just your arm caught in lava (you would at least lose the arm).
But yeah, walking on lava would be a death sentence. Heat, poison vapor, molten rock.
The average damage for an ancient red dragon's breath weapon is so hot that in three seconds it can destroy an entire suit of mundane full plate mail in three seconds. Not damage, not warp, destroy, as in there is nothing left to fix. This is hotter than lava. That same dragon can snatch (the feat) an adventurer into their jaws and pin them in their jaws so they cannot dodge or evade their breath weapon (it even prevents them from making a Reflex save and you normally get Reflex saves even if you're lying around unconscious). The PC receives the full force of this breath weapon.
Most level-appropriate martial characters won't even be knocked unconscious by this hellfire-like heat but will instead angrily full-attack the dragon with their axe or sword until the dragon decides to spit them out.
Yes, YOU and I would lose our arms if we were touched by lava. We're 1st level adult commoners. The most robust in the world have 15 hit points (max d6, +5 Con, favored class commoner, toughness feat) but most of us have 3 Hp and a negative Hp threshold of 10. Contact with lava (even a tiny bit) deals 2d6 fire damage (average 7) per round and will probably begin killing us instantly. Submersion in lava deals 20d6 damage per round which means its minimum damage will kill us instantly and its average damage would kill the most robust commoner twice over instantly.
Also, the lava itself deals fire damage. However, there are in fact environmental rules for the other dangers you mention that lava creates.
Catching on Fire
Characters exposed to burning oil, bonfires, and non-instantaneous magic fires might find their clothes, hair, or equipment on fire. Spells with an instantaneous duration don't normally set a character on fire, since the heat and flame from these come and go in a flash.
Characters at risk of catching fire are allowed a DC 15 Reflex save to avoid this fate. If a character's clothes or hair catch fire, he takes 1d6 points of damage immediately. In each subsequent round, the burning character must make another Reflex saving throw. Failure means he takes another 1d6 points of damage that round. Success means that the fire has gone out—that is, once he succeeds on his saving throw, he's no longer on fire.
A character on fire may automatically extinguish the flames by jumping into enough water to douse himself. If no body of water is at hand, rolling on the ground or smothering the fire with cloaks or the like permits the character another save with a +4 bonus.
Those whose clothes or equipment catch fire must make DC 15 Reflex saves for each item. Flammable items that fail take the same amount of damage as the character.
Suffocation
A character who has no air to breathe can hold her breath for 2 rounds per point of Constitution. If a character takes a standard or full-round action, the remaining duration that the character can hold her breath is reduced by 1 round. After this period of time, the character must make a DC 10 Constitution check in order to continue holding her breath. The check must be repeated each round, with the DC increasing by +1 for each previous success.When the character fails one of these Constitution checks, she begins to suffocate. In the first round, she falls unconscious (0 hit points). In the following round, she drops to –1 hit points and is dying. In the third round, she suffocates.
Slow Suffocation: A Medium character can breathe easily for 6 hours in a sealed chamber measuring 10 feet on a side. After that time, the character takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage every 15 minutes. Each additional Medium character or significant fire source (a torch, for example) proportionally reduces the time the air will last. Once rendered unconscious through the accumulation of nonlethal damage, the character begins to take lethal damage at the same rate. Small characters consume half as much air as Medium characters.
In severe heat (above 110° F), a character must make a Fortitude save once every 10 minutes (DC 15, +1 for each previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Characters wearing heavy clothing or armor of any sort take a –4 penalty on their saves. A character with the Survival skill may receive a bonus on this saving throw and might be able to apply this bonus to other characters as well (see the Survival skill in Using Skills). Characters reduced to unconsciousness begin taking lethal damage (1d4 points per each 10-minute period).
A character who takes any nonlethal damage from heat exposure now suffers from heatstroke and is fatigued. These penalties end when the character recovers from the nonlethal damage she took from the heat.
Extreme heat (air temperature over 140° F, fire, boiling water, lava) deals lethal damage. Breathing air in these temperatures deals 1d6 points of fire damage per minute (no save). In addition, a character must make a Fortitude save every 5 minutes (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or take 1d4 points of nonlethal damage. Those wearing heavy clothing or any sort of armor take a –4 penalty on their saves.
Smoke Effects
A character who breathes heavy smoke must make a Fortitude save each round (DC 15, +1 per previous check) or spend that round choking and coughing. A character who chokes for 2 consecutive rounds takes 1d6 points of nonlethal damage. Smoke obscures vision, giving concealment (20% miss chance) to characters within it.
Man, next game I run I'm using volcanoes. I have NOT been using the environment rules enough at all!
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man, next game I run I'm using volcanoes. I have NOT been using the environment rules enough at all!
Oh I highly recommend it. I use the environment rules pretty regularly because they can turn the mundane into the extraordinary and very quickly bring the threats of adventuring to the forefront of someone's mind.
Even the simplest of encounters can be made into explosively intense scenes when the environment is a factor.
For example, a battle with a fire elemental is okay. A battle with a fire elemental in a smoke-filled room with a spreading fire is better. An encounter with a marsh dwelling shambling mound is part for the course but when you factor in things like the mud, water, fog and so forth it not only makes the battle more exciting it paints a more detailed picture.
|
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
|
FOr me Pathfinder kept the seat warm due to a certain edition WoTC released a few years ago. I was an early adopter of 3.0 more or less as soon as I could get my hands on the books in 2000.By 2012 3.x was not looking that appealing and after 10 years of supporting Paizo I more or less stopped getting stuff. After trying out 2E agian after a 10 year hiatus (2002-2012) I found I enjoyed certain things from AD&D the main appeal of 3.x over 2E at the time was things like ascending ACs, no level limits or racial restrictions.
Now I will quite happily play OD&D,BECMI, 1E,2E, 3.0/3.5/PF or 5E and I own all 7 editions of D&D, Pathfinder, Castles and Crusades, ACKs, DCC, Basic Fantasy and a few other clones I forget the name of.
Suffice to say I have my preferences but very few sacred cows as such. I prefer no racial restrictions of level limits but if I am playing AD&D 1E or 2E I can live with them.
So after 6 years of Pathfinder being around and perhaps up to 15 years of 3.x games I was wondering what peoples opinion here is on sacred cows? How many of the following things do you regard as essential to your enjoyment of Pathfinder in particular or 3.x gaming in general.
1. Disparity of 6 points between a good and bad save.
2. Sacking spell DCs with the level of the spell and then adding the spellcaster modifier to the DC (when you require XYZ amount of ability score to cast the spell in the 1st place).
3. Being able to easily buy magical items.
4. Wands of Cure Ligth Wounds and similar wands existing enabling very cheap healing.
5. Multiple attacks decreasing in accuracy eg. +16/+11/+6/+1
6. The natural spell feat existing.
7. Disparity of +/- 6 skill points between the classes eg 2 for fighters, 8 for rogues.
8. Auto scaling buff spells you can stack together eg divine power, divine favor, righteous might etc.
9. Feats existing full stop. Would you play a 3.x/d20 game with no feats?
10. Ability scores scaling up as you level and uncapped limits on ability scores.
This is not what I thought this thread would be - none of those are "sacred" to me. It has to be stuff from earlier than 3.0 to fall into that category - my "sacred cows" are things like Vancian casting, the six ability scores, level/class based system, and so forth. Point by point:
1. Eh, this doesn't bother me too much. Even 1e had some levels with 5 point spreads between the saves, although those were usually low levels.
2. I do think this is one of the reasons spellcasters are more of an issue nowadays - back in older editions, SoD spells weren't reliable because everyone made their save on like a 4. If you want to simulate older editions, just house rule all save DCs to about 18.
3. I'd be happy to see this go.
4. And this.
5. Neutral on this.
6. I like Natural Spell.
7. I like this too. I've never been part of the "2 skill points in too few!" crowd.
8. These are fine.
9. Feats are one of the best concepts introduced in 3.0. Obviously implementation still has issues, but the idea of feats is solid.
10. My 1e/2e games had house rules that let ability score increase slowly with level, but they capped at 18. I'd be okay with a cap to "unaugmented" scores.
The only Sacred Cows I'm aware of are in India.
Edit - that was an attempt at humour.....in case my Perform: comedy roll is too low and people misread it.
Lack of context tends to do that.
But no one should be leaning on Pathfinder rules for accuracy.
Yeah - there are things that the d20 system just doesn't do well.
Strangulation/suffocation, for example. The entire Kraken style, chokehold line of "feats". Worthless for something that, irl, can be done in 6 seconds. (I know, I know! "Don't quote real life in a game with wizards and magic!")
I like the customization of Pathfinder, but find that I house-rule a LOT of things to make the game work for me and my friends.
As for "sacred cows" of the system: Feats; and Classes.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's interesting how so many people require feats in their game. Personally, I hate feats. When a class has an extra X feat to get more class features its the only feat I get (regardless of how gimped sans-kineticist -2 spell level).
I see them as a glut of false choices that rarely add anything meaningful to the game and instead detract from what everyone can do because apparently you need a feat to tie your shoes.
It's interesting how so many people require feats in their game. Personally, I hate feats. When a class has an extra X feat to get more class features its the only feat I get (regardless of how gimped sans-kineticist -2 spell level).
I see them as a glut of false choices that rarely add anything meaningful to the game and instead detract from what everyone can do because apparently you need a feat to tie your shoes.
Conversely, you can use three feats to grant yourself an animal companion equal to a Druids. :D
It's interesting how so many people require feats in their game. Personally, I hate feats. When a class has an extra X feat to get more class features its the only feat I get (regardless of how gimped sans-kineticist -2 spell level).
I see them as a glut of false choices that rarely add anything meaningful to the game and instead detract from what everyone can do because apparently you need a feat to tie your shoes.
LOL So true.
But if you're not using Feats, you're not playing Pathfinder. They keep coming up with new "feats" when really they are coming up with new mechanics - things that they have worked out mechanically so you can do cool X,Y, &/or Z. And then they restrict it by saying:"NO! You have to take it as a Feat when you get one! We can't let everyone just do this!"
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
It's interesting how so many people require feats in their game. Personally, I hate feats. When a class has an extra X feat to get more class features its the only feat I get (regardless of how gimped sans-kineticist -2 spell level).
I see them as a glut of false choices that rarely add anything meaningful to the game and instead detract from what everyone can do because apparently you need a feat to tie your shoes.
LOL So true.
But if you're not using Feats, you're not playing Pathfinder. They keep coming up with new "feats" when really they are coming up with new mechanics - things that they have worked out mechanically so you can do cool X,Y, &/or Z. And then they restrict it by saying:"NO! You have to take it as a Feat when you get one! We can't let everyone just do this!"
Yeah. Feats are great, but so many things shouldn't be feats.
Why is Power Attack a feat (that nearly every martial takes), but Fighting Defensively is a default option?
Either Power Attack should be something that everyone can do, or Fighting Defensively should become a feat (and if we're going that route, everyone should get more feats to compensate).
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Why is Power Attack a feat (that nearly every martial takes), but Fighting Defensively is a default option?
Either Power Attack should be something that everyone can do, or Fighting Defensively should become a feat (and if we're going that route, everyone should get more feats to compensate).
Arguably - there should be a crappy version of Power Attack that everyone can use - and the feat lets you do it better. Perhaps -3 to hit & +3 damage, +4 damage with a THW, +1 damage off-hand. (Though it would shift game balance somewhat - making oozes and other super low AC monsters a bit weaker.)
That's what Fighting Defensively is. It's the crappy version of Combat Expertise. It's inherently inferior to Combat Expertise unless you use feats to make it better. (Plus - if you're in a tight spot about to die - you can use both to make them stack if you desire.)
Note that giving power attack to everything makes the game much deadlier (there are a LOT of creatures that don't have or are unable to take power attack that would benefit greatly from it, like most oozes and golems), so "power attack for everybody!" might not actually be the buff to martials that you're looking for =P
Charon's in-between of an inferior no-feat PA might be a decent house rule, though?
Minotaur with levels in paladin.
I played a minotaur cleric once. One of my favorite characters ever.
But no one should be leaning on Pathfinder rules for accuracy.Yeah - there are things that the d20 system just doesn't do well.
Strangulation/suffocation, for example. The entire Kraken style, chokehold line of "feats". Worthless for something that, irl, can be done in 6 seconds. (I know, I know! "Don't quote real life in a game with wizards and magic!")
I like the customization of Pathfinder, but find that I house-rule a LOT of things to make the game work for me and my friends.
As for "sacred cows" of the system: Feats; and Classes.
Funny thing about Kraken Throttle, from my understanding with a strict raw reading of the feat it can kill someone in 6 seconds with enough grapple feats as it says 'suffocates the opponent' , which under suffocation rules means you die (suffocation is what occurs on the 3rd round without air).
As for Sacred Cows I'd have to say the games caster central design in that you are expected to have access to a certain amount of 'wizard' (spell access) through items/class features.
|
|
Funny thing about Kraken Throttle, from my understanding with a strict raw reading of the feat it can kill someone in 6 seconds with enough grapple feats as it says 'suffocates the opponent' , which under suffocation rules means you die (suffocation is what occurs on the 3rd round without air).
There was a thread about that. The actual designer of the feat stepped in and said that it didn't work like that - that they'd get to hold their breath against it.
There was a thread about that. The actual designer of the feat stepped in and said that it didn't work like that - that they'd get to hold their breath against it.
Yea I figured as much hence a 'strict raw reading'.
Although even if it forced the grapple-e to make con checks every round it would at least be decent. But clearly if I want to strangle the life out of someone I'm going to wait patiently for them to hold their breath otherwise it'd be rude. :P
|
|
There was a thread about that. The actual designer of the feat stepped in and said that it didn't work like that - that they'd get to hold their breath against it.Yea I figured as much hence a 'strict raw reading'.
Although even if it forced the grapple-e to make con checks every round it would at least be decent. But clearly if I want to strangle the life out of someone I'm going to wait patiently for them to hold their breath otherwise it'd be rude. :P
*Shrug* - still decent for shutting down spellcasters. How many casters prepare many Silent spells?
20 levels.
20 levels is a sin. You can have levels, just not this huge power disparity that is between levels 1 and 20. Too bare at low level, too swingy at high level. System that tries to support both focuses on neither.
20 levels is fine if the game fully embraces it, rather than letting casters ride the level train all the way into divinity while trying to keep the beatsticks down around the level 6 range.
In some systems "mundanes" keep up with magic easily because they get funny things like big guns, high-tech gadgetz and bodymods. All of which is not really classic d&d flavor.
In some systems "mundanes" keep up with magic easily because they get funny things like big guns, high-tech gadgetz and bodymods. All of which is not really classic d&d flavor.
And despite it not being classic D&D flavour, all of those are on the PRD. But it doesn't help because of the nature of WBL.