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A little while ago, I was in a discussion about Chaotic Neutral exemplar outsider races, such as Proteans, Chaos Beasts, and Slaad. My thoughts on these races are simply this: The writers do not appear to know what to do with them.
Slaad and, to a lesser degree, Proteans, are portrayed as races of violently insane psychotics who will rip your arms off, beat you over the head with them, and then transform your quivering remains into prismatic horrors as an afterthought. In essence, they behave just like demons, but Smite Evil does not work on them.
And this seems to be how they are written almost every single time. They are almost invariably violent psychotics. While this is certainly one way to go, and could be one aspect of Chaotic Neutral outsiders, I would imagine that there would be a greater deal of variety with races that are literal representations of entropy.
So I am curious, how do other gamers portray them, or believe they should be portrayed? Or are Chaotic Neutral races being constantly and violently psychotic really the only practicable way to go?
Erratic, mad, inconsistent, largely incomprehensible and very unreliable. Quixotic at best. Varying from taking a deep and intrusive interest in a subject to suddenly forgetting all about it. Able to make friends and be very helpful, but just as able to ignore those friends and do something oblique and unhelpful. ADHD on steroids.
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I'd probably look to portrayals of the fey for more complex inspiration (Jim Butcher's Dresden Files is one of the more thorough modern interpretations). Probably the best summary - driven almost entirely by passions/desire. They can be highly generous when they're pleased, but can also be highly destructive and violent when wronged. There's a reason someone unpredictable is referred to as being in a "fey mood".
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Proteans differ from demons mainly in their goals:
Proteans want to return reality to the continuous flux and change of the Maelstrom. To them, stability and order are alien and limiting states of existence compared to the boundless potential of chaos. There's nothing personal about it, really (most of the time, at least; enslaving proteans to create demi-planes, like Nex did to create Kakishon, will make it personal for them); you're just in the way.
Demons, on the other hand, actively want to indulge in sinful behavior (including acts of wrath to rip your head and limbs off). They also act as tempters (some better than others) to get mortals to sin more, which produces more demons.
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Proteans are angry about existence they are quite possibly the oldest things anywhere and they can remember a time when raw morphic matter and energy was all there was. Everything was formless and took shapes on their whim. Then something happened and all of a sudden they were all locked into these shapes. Sure, they could still shift themselves around a little bit, but it isn't like it used to be. Once they were limitless, and now they have a small handful of options and they hate all of them.
They hate everything that has a structure or form. They hate your rules and your labels. They're a combination of anarchists, thirteen year olds who hate their parents, and anyone you've ever met who is still living in the past and can't move on with their lives.
Protean are not insane or evil. They're just angry.
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Chaos Beasts are kind of like what the Protean used to be, except they don't really seem to have control over their shapeshifting. They're also similar to the Protean in that they seem to want to return things back to a formless state. In their case though, they're focused on creatures, not existence itself. It isn't malicious. Its more tragic than anything else.
They're kind of like Sadness from Inside Out. They want to touch things and they don't understand why that's a bad thing. They don't understand why anything would want to be stuck in a fixed state. In their minds, they are helping.
They also don't seem to have any fixed goals, society, or motivations. They can't seem to maintain concentration or memory, which indicates that their constant shapeshifting actually gives them a sort of brain damage. Something like Alzheimers or Dory from Finding Nemo would be a good way to think of this affliction.
Chaos Beasts are not insane or evil. They're just confused.
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Slaad on the other hand, are completely insane. Not insane like played for laughs or unpredictable. The opposite of that. Insane as in cannot cope with reality.
The armies of heaven and hell are a myriad of strange, seemly chaotic forms that don't really have anything to do with each other. Even the lawful ones like Devils and Angels have extremely varied shapes among their own ranks. That's because even though they are lawful by nature, they are also extremely adaptable. Their forms follow their function.
Slaad, by contrast, are all giant frogs. That's how the slaad relate to the universe. The answer to absolutely any question a salad could pose is giant frog. In spite of being creatures of chaos, the Slaad are really, really bad at adapting to new situations. That's the way insanity is.
Most of the time, that's fine though. On limbo, which is a completely insane place, giant grog is as good an answer as any. Most problems on limbo can, in fact, be solved by the answer of giant frog. The problem for Slaad comes when they aren't on Limbo (which, unfortunately for the rest of existence, is often).
The slaad come from a place that is constantly changing and limitless in size. To say it is inhospitable is a huge understatement. Their lifecycle involves infecting creatures that aren't native to their home plane. That means Slaad have a natural impulse to leave limbo. Then when they get to a prime material plane, suddenly all the rules are different. Why aren't these walls melting? What the crap is a 'doorknob?' Gravity only goes one way! Nothing makes any damn sense!!
So, to an outside observer, the Slaad sometimes do really weird stuff like try to push their way through solid walls, or strain like they are trying to lift themselves into the sky. They don't understand the world and they aren't equipped to adapt at all.
All they're trying to do is infect a few lowly humanoids with their spores so they can breed a few thousand more Slaadlings, and to do it they have to come to a place that is as weird to them as Limbo is to us.
They aren't out to cause us pain deliberately. We're just egg incubators to them. They're about as thrilled about that as we are.
The Slaad aren't evil. They're angry, confused and insane.
Pathfinder Slaad are a bit easier to navigate. "old school" slaad are often behaviorally hard to distinguish between demons.
Pathfinders Greys and Greens are typically not destructive, since they are too occupied with the arcane to care about anything else and taking risks could jeopardize that ambition.
Blues are more 'noble bar brawlers', quick to pick a fight and more likely to buy you a beer if you win (slight good leaning). Reds lean more towards the CE side by comparison. If you're looking for a Chaotic summon, beat a blue slaad in a straight up fight and he'll probably give you his number.
Death Slaad are more like mercenary warlords. They'll happily whip up an army and wage a little war whenever opportunity arises, but can be convinced to cease unpleasantries much easier than dealing with a devil/demon. Not saying doing so would be cheap or easy, but there's less likely to be lingering unpleasantness in the arrangement.
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They hate everything that has a structure or form. They hate your rules and your labels. They're a combination of anarchists, thirteen year olds who hate their parents, and anyone you've ever met who is still living in the past and can't move on with their lives.
Protean are not insane or evil. They're just angry.
Under your rubric, Slaad at least have the excuse of being insane. Proteans do not seem to have any such excuse. They are simply malevolent. I have always conceptualized that Chaotic Neutral ultimately stands for "Do What Thou Wilt." Proteans are not free-willed anarchists; Proteans are apparently going out of their way to impose their views on the universe and destroy everyone else in the process.
I would argue that anyone who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people simply because they are angry is morally indistinguishable from one who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people because they enjoy inflicting pain. Especially if they comprehend what they are doing and understand that they are inflicting pain on others.
For that I would argue that Proteans, as they are currently written, are Chaotic Evil, with a greater emphasis on the Chaos rather than the Evil, as their evil comes from their indifference to suffering, rather than sadism.
I would argue that anyone who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people simply because they are angry is morally indistinguishable from one who ends/destroys the lives of innocent people because they enjoy inflicting pain. Especially if they comprehend what they are doing and understand that they are inflicting pain on others.
I think that last sentence is the crux of the matter.
Perhaps they aren't empathic, and do not (cannot?) comprehend the pain they are inflicting upon others.
They aren't inflicting pain for the purpose of hurting others, they're doing what they feel they need to do to improve their lives.
I feel that's the difference between N and E. If there was an easier way to get what they want without hurting others, they would do that, as getting what they want is the main goal. They're just apathetic about the pains of others.
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I'd go with most proteans not being angry - they've got an infinite Maelstrom to themselves, and could and do spend eons wandering it.
But the angry ones are the ones most mortals and exemplars interact with - proteans that aren't summoned have to go out of their way to even see a non-protean.
And the ones that are driven to do that are usually the ones that are cruising for a bruising.
(Aside: One of my favorite little random charts from 4E was the Slaad Diplomacy Failure chart. Which ranged from outright attack to the slaad just staring at you until you got uncomfortable and left (no matter how long that took) to the slaad's head exploding (and then the headless slaad walking off, its head regrowing in 1d6 days).)
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I hope that I might be among the folks you think knows what to do with proteans. :)
I might advise not to try to find a default way of approaching protean mindsets and motivations. That's sort of defeating the idea behind them. They're all about freedom and change. It isn't creation, it isn't destruction, it's change/beauty/novelty/whimsy/the point of everything really to them.
Any given protean is likely to be working under the auspices of any of the innumerable (likely infinite) Choruses (led by a keketar cabal). Each Chorus has a philosophy and goal in mind, at least until its ruling keketars listen to the Maelstrom's whispers and change their course to better fit what they interpret as the will of their indescribable godhead.
And that wild diversity of motivations isn't always the situation for each protean. If a naunet is summoned outside of the Maelstrom, it's likely to be physically in pain and confused by the -to its perception- manifest horror of a static, rigid, chained and inflexible reality around itself. It's going to instinctively lash out and try to escape or destroy what it finds. A more intelligent protean isn't going to be happy, but it's going to try to change the situation nonetheless, all depending on who dared to drag them there and for what purpose. They're tricky, dangerous, but they don't hate you or wish you pain. They view a lot of the multiverse as things worthy of pity, unable to see the very real chains holding them down, holding them back, and leashing them to a static existence that never should have been the only option.
If you haven't yet, take a look at the sample Choruses listed in 'Keepers of Chaos' in the End of Eternity entry of the Legacy of Fire AP.
A little while ago, I was in a discussion about Chaotic Neutral exemplar outsider races, such as Proteans, Chaos Beasts, and Slaad. My thoughts on these races are simply this: The writers do not appear to know what to do with them.
Slaad and, to a lesser degree, Proteans, are portrayed as races of violently insane psychotics who will rip your arms off, beat you over the head with them, and then transform your quivering remains into prismatic horrors as an afterthought. In essence, they behave just like demons, but Smite Evil does not work on them.
And this seems to be how they are written almost every single time. They are almost invariably violent psychotics. While this is certainly one way to go, and could be one aspect of Chaotic Neutral outsiders, I would imagine that there would be a greater deal of variety with races that are literal representations of entropy.
So I am curious, how do other gamers portray them, or believe they should be portrayed? Or are Chaotic Neutral races being constantly and violently psychotic really the only practicable way to go?
this honestly gets to me too.
a Chaotic NEUTRAL outsider should be something that values individuality above all else, they would hate people who follow others and would be amorphous in that they want to be like nothing else, not even like other outsiders that are classified the same.
when interacting with mortals they should encourage them to be rebellious or do what THEY want to do not what someone else wants them to do and would probably get upset/dangerous when people don't try to change things.
chaos' "gooder" aspects are innovation and not judging people for who they are, or individualism. Chaos' worse aspects are inconsistency and narcissism(in that they may value no other opinions on what should happen).
look at the lawful outsiders and how they basically all have a predefined shape and objective and do this ruthlessly efficiently. Chaos should instead be all about every person being their own person completely unique.
so be aware that someone summoning a protean, is essentially giving it orders and this is going to drive the protean crazy.
I agree, how they are written is more evil than chaotic, but try this instead:
-Chaotic behavior doesn't anticipate a result. Don't plan ahead, no plots, no schemes.
-Ignore theory of mind, the chaotic exemplar can't contemplate a mind unlike itself and is fuzzy on that point as well.
-order is just like chaos when viewed from close up. All the little scratches and burs are a whirl of disorder. Chaos is a matter of scale
-A creature of chaos may rule tyrannically just to force revolution. They should have no special distaste for order, but seek to push it to extremes. Extremes are aberrations and chaos.
-lower social DCs and durations. You can easily make peace with a creature of chaos, but he has no inclination to remember or interpret the encounter the same way when he thinks back on it. The exception is sensemotive, the chaotic creature should have no idea if it's telling the truth or a lie, and shouldn't be certain of any long term goals.
-for behavior grab a few things. Treat players like old friends. Say whatever comes to mind. Don't be mean or nice. Talk through their internal monologue out loud. Do not buy sell or trade.
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so be aware that someone summoning a protean, is essentially giving it orders and this is going to drive the protean crazy.
I imagine that naunets are going to chaff at the least, and more likely freak at being bound and try to escape at the soonest possible chance.
Imentesh on the other hand are going to be devious, no matter their discomfort at being bound. In fact even if the binding actually fails they're likely to have fun pretending to be bound without the summoner being any the wiser.
I'd write this in protean speak, but I'm on my phone.
"Binding me to do your will? Really mortal? That's not how we work. That's sort of the antithesis of our kind really. You aren't giving me orders. You're giving me ideas. You're giving me inspiration. A few bars of a tune hummed and then I go about making music all of my own. That might involve doing what you want and also a lot of things you don't, it might involve going to the local tavern and getting riotously drunk while appearing to be you, it might involve telling your enemies what you're up to, or it might simply involve setting you on fire, insane, and possible in another plane. It's all really a roll of the dice with us. Sometimes. Maybe. Perhaps."
The protean smiles as the scales on its coils shift in random splotches.
"Also you smudged a rune in your binding circle. That's a problem. For you I mean. Not for me. I simply have waaaaaaay much more leeway with how I go about doing whatever I feel like doing here in the next few minutes."
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Watch My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic.
No, I'm serious. The episodes with Discord, who is voiced by Jon DeLancie ("Q" from Star Trek) exemplify what a chaotic neutral character can be. Sometimes malevolent, sometimes friendly, always following his whims and doing whatever seems to be fun or interesting at the moment. Early episodes show him as a threat, but later episodes when he becomes "reformed" show what it would be like to be allies with a primordial force of chaos: you never know what might happen next, and you're always suspicious that whatever is going on is his fault, but you know if you accuse him he'll get all butthurt.
I should also note that Discord looks very much like a pathfinder protean: a serpentine, dragon-like body, with limbs and appendages taken from a grab-bag of different animal forms, with the ability to change size and shape at will, teleport at will, and alter reality around himself.
I should also note that Discord looks very much like a pathfinder protean: a serpentine, dragon-like body, with limbs and appendages taken from a grab-bag of different animal forms, with the ability to change size and shape at will, teleport at will, and alter reality around himself.
Yeah, I've seen more than one side by side picture of Discord from MLP and either an Imentesh or Keketar protean. I've seen Discord described as an honorary protean. I find the comparison quite fitting actually. :)
I've written a few things from the perspective of a protean, and some from the perspective of a tiefling of very strongly hinted at protean descent (or just a protean sorcerer bloodline). In either event, they all give a decent look at how I run tieflings and how I perceive their actions to be much of the time.
'Well it Seemed Like a Good Idea at the Time' involving Nisha Starweather (who first showed up in 'Classic treasures Revisited').
I had another piece also involving her in Wayfinder 11.
I wrote fiction from the perspective of a keketar protean as the frontmatter in the following two Legendary Games products:
The latter involves a keketar attempting to describe various lawful outsiders, it's opinion of them, and its difficulty in understanding how they perceive the world as they do.
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Part of why CN outsiders are things that you need to fight... is because Pathfinder is a game where monsters are made for you to fight them.
If I were to make a new CN intelligent outsider - I'd make them the inverse of Inevitables. Perhaps Anarchys. (Anarchies?)
Solo creatures who don't really like to associate with one another, and occasionally they go on self-imposed missions to destroy powerful organizations which are controlling the world around them too much.
Whereas an Inevitable does their work through mostly brute force, an Anarchy would do so by making the organization rot from within. Give them spell-like abilities of confusion, domination (nothing like a middling officer just giving his subordinates random and destructive orders to wreck an organization), and illusions. Plus doppleganger style shapeshifting & the bluff skill. Plus all sorts of escape mechanisms.
Sometimes they'll continue harassing an organization until it's entirely destroyed, sometimes they'll wander off after a single attack. Most often, said organization doesn't even know that they've been attacked by an Anarchy at all.
Nations, temples, or cults - they're all fair game. The Anarchies also don't care if the organization is good or evil, just that it is controlling certain aspects of the world too much. (Though of course - only they know what 'line' the organization actually crossed.)