Is this for Pathfinder Society or a home game?
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Muskets are loud.
Very loud.
You will need many Oils of Silence to even attempt this.
Just curious since I don't use firearms at all. Is there an actual rule in-game for the volume of a musket (or other firearm)?
Because, if not, then by RAW muskets might not be any louder than longbows or thrown daggers - they all make the same sound (the sound of a d20 rolling on the table).
Your biggest issue is going to be reliably getting sneak attack with a ranged weapon.
I have thought of character concepts along this line as well. Utilizing a double barrel musket, vital strike, and sneak attack (probably wouldn't get SA on both bullets). The issue is having a mechanism for reliably getting SA.
1) Gazzling display route, Gory finish works well with this concept.
2) Go ninja and utilize vanish. Probably best synergizes with a mysterious stranger for Cha focus.
3) Scout also works well for a mobile ranged rogue but it takes 8 lvls to get a sneak attack after a move. So by the time you get your signature attack you are retiring.
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Muskets are loud.
Very loud.
You will need many Oils of Silence to even attempt this.
Just curious since I don't use firearms at all. Is there an actual rule in-game for the volume of a musket (or other firearm)?
Because, if not, then by RAW muskets might not be any louder than longbows or thrown daggers - they all make the same sound (the sound of a d20 rolling on the table).
Common sense.
The rules don't say water is wet, or that wood can't provide sustenance, but that don't mean you should decide water is dry, and wood makes a healthy breakfast.
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I would lump it in with "the sound of battle" and give it a perception DC of -10.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Muskets are loud.
Very loud.
You will need many Oils of Silence to even attempt this.
Just curious since I don't use firearms at all. Is there an actual rule in-game for the volume of a musket (or other firearm)?
Because, if not, then by RAW muskets might not be any louder than longbows or thrown daggers - they all make the same sound (the sound of a d20 rolling on the table).
Common sense.
The rules don't say water is wet, or that wood can't provide sustenance, but that don't mean you should decide water is dry, and wood makes a healthy breakfast.
You're right, of course.
But the rules DO give very specific rules on how to used ranged weapons to make ranged attacks, with and without sniping. Also very specific rules on how to use Stealth to hide from enemies and how to use Perception to find Stealthy attackers.
All of this is EXPLICITLY in the rules.
Now while common sense says guns are loud and we should ignore some of those explicit rules, that DOES force us to create a bunch of house rules for just this kind of ranged weapon to handle an imaginary problem that isn't specifically or explicitly excepted in the rules.
While your other examples about making water dry and wood edible are cute, those changes don't really require a bunch of house rules to create new mechanics that don't exist in the book.
In short, the devs made firearms do the same thing that longbows or crossbows do, then they altered a few mechanics for them such as misfires and touch attacks, and left us to use the existing mechanics for everything else. If they had wanted to make it impossible to Snipe with firearms, they could have included that when they altered those other mechanics - but they didn't.
I would lump it in with "the sound of battle" and give it a perception DC of -10.
So it's pretty much impossible to use sniping with firearms in your game? Except at extreme long ranges (extreme for any typical distance for encounters in this game) where the distance penalty offsets this awful DC - and of course there is no Sneak Attack at those ranges.
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You don't need houserules.
Some things don't have listed Perception DCs, but creating one is not a houserule, just one using established rules to create a DC.
Also, there is the -2/+2 Circumstance bonus, that a DM can apply to anything he/she likes.
There is no listed Perception DC for hearing a barrel of gunpowder explode, but we know it's not silent.
Why do you think they explicitly listed the price of Oils of Silence, in the same book, and in the same section, as they introduced firearms?
You don't need houserules.
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Why do you think they explicitly listed the price of Oils of Silence, in the same book, and in the same section, as they introduced firearms?
An excellent question. But not one from which we can deduce that firearms are so noisy that sniping is impossible, nor one from which we can deduce a proper Perception modifier to hear firearms. In fact, the Oil of Silence, while it suggests that firearms are noisy, it provides absolutely ZERO rules, not even the hint of a modifier, for what a firearm does without the oil.
Firearm snipers existed in the real world before silencers were employed. Common snipers in WWI and WWII used unsilenced rifles (although some silencers were used in WWII, just not always).
Of course, Pathfinder is not real life. We all know that.
But to suggest that firearms are so loud that sniping is impossible, without any rules text anywhere to support that, is imposing a made-up rule to limit firearms.
That absolutely IS house-rule territory.
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I didn't say it was impossible.
Just really hard.
Also, Silencers don't really exist.
There are suppressors, but even on modern firearms, they are still loud.
It was suggested that Bows and Muskets made the same amount of noise when fired.
I disagreed. I also said, in not the exact same words, that having them make no more sound than a Bow, was a silly idea.
That's all that happened.
Ok so the first questions is how effective a character you want vs how well do you want it to adhere to Caine?
If I was to model Caine as a PF character I would go 1 level of warpriest with the air blessing (you no longer take a penalty for range increments). Even though there are no penalties, you are still limited by max range, so let try and maximize that. Musket master is a good starting point, and goes well with the double hackbut (longest range gun, require an action to set up the tripod. Exactly like Caine's). Add in the distance weapon enhancement and drink a potion of longshot and we have a nice starting place: (50ft base +10ft musket master +10ft longshot) X2 from distance X10 max range. so 1400ft or 280 battle mat squares.
Now lets assume you want to maximize combat effectiveness: musket master is still a good call (free rapid reload). level 5 gives you dex to damage which is nice, or you can go rogue/slayer for extra damage. Normally I would suggest getting ranged SA by casting obscuring mist and wearing a fog cutting lenses, but with this character you want sniper goggles (affordable at lvl 6 or 7) so you can SA at any range. As such you need a level of wave mystery oracle (or fire or any of the other fog vision granting classes). So I would probably go 5 musket master, 1 oracle, and then finish rogue (or slayer for less damage but more accuracy). Not Caine at all, but bounty hunter slayer can technically get dirty tricks at range when they SA so there can be some fun with that.
Muskets are loud.
Very loud.
You will need many Oils of Silence to even attempt this.
Just curious since I don't use firearms at all. Is there an actual rule in-game for the volume of a musket (or other firearm)?
Because, if not, then by RAW muskets might not be any louder than longbows or thrown daggers - they all make the same sound (the sound of a d20 rolling on the table).
I sm going to go 6 of one, half dozen of another there.
The thing with arrows and daggers is that they are relatively large, and they move at speeds that can be rather visible. So the target might spot the thing (not have enough time to react, of course, but enough to tell where it came from). In comparison, musket balls are small and move at a speed that is exceedingly hard to spot.
So there are equal indicators either way, just using different senses. That is how I justify that penalty to stealth for shooting.
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I was trying to build a sniper around the idea of ,Cairn the longshot from Trigun.
The guy with the ridiculously long gun? Love him, just such a funny character.
I think it would work fine in casual play, but I've found that long range is very tough for PFS missions. Just not too many big maps. PFS also seems rather opposed to the "one shot, one kill" design that a sniper should be focused on.
I was trying to build a sniper around the idea of ,Cairn the longshot from Trigun.
I was going to use 5 lvls of Gunslinger; musket master,
than take rogue 6 lvls, sniper archetype with gives me the +10 feet for sneak attack per 3 lvls, than take rogue talents and use ninja trick talent and use all three talents on deadly range will add 30 ft to my sneak attack to a total of 80 feet. Than with the distance magic on my musket plus the musket master ability it would make the first range increment 100 ft.
My feat selection would be, point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid shot for sure
maybe wpn focus, snap shot, snap shot improved, and improved initiativewhat do you think of this idea.
I realize that this is pretty late. But irl the suppressor placed on a sniper rifle isn't designed to stop people from hearing you. It's been my experience that suppressed weapons are loud as f!$$. A suppressors main job is to prevent spotters from seeing the muzzle flare. Snipers are trying to sneak in, collect data, make one shot if they have to, and leave without being seen unless they're in overwatching positions and then in that situation, their stealth isn't usually that necessary.
I do realize that this is a fantasy game, I just hope some irl stuff can lend some ideas to the character concept. Oil of silence is a neat magic item tho seeing as it completely mutes the weapon, tho doesn't necessarily stop the flash or the cloud of smoke usually associated with black powder weapons.
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I was trying to build a sniper around the idea of ,Cairn the longshot from Trigun.
I was going to use 5 lvls of Gunslinger; musket master,
than take rogue 6 lvls, sniper archetype with gives me the +10 feet for sneak attack per 3 lvls, than take rogue talents and use ninja trick talent and use all three talents on deadly range will add 30 ft to my sneak attack to a total of 80 feet. Than with the distance magic on my musket plus the musket master ability it would make the first range increment 100 ft.
My feat selection would be, point blank shot, precise shot, improved precise shot, rapid shot for sure
maybe wpn focus, snap shot, snap shot improved, and improved initiativewhat do you think of this idea.
To avoid the arguments about sniping and sound, just head into Spellslinger Wizard after your 5th level in gunslinger and cast Invisibility and Silence on yourself. At 10th you can jump into Eldritch Knight to pump up the BAB again, and you'll be able to cast Greater Invisibility for some serious sniping.
Or alternatively, Musket Master 5, Rogue (Sniper) 1, pick up Accomplished Sneak Attacker while taking Wizard (Spellslinger) 3, then take Arcane Trickster to continue advancing spells and sneak attack.
Even more ways snipe. Speaking of which, Sniper Goggles will let you make ranged sneak attacks from any distance, so you'll want to pick those up regardless.
Be a Strix...
Take one level of Bolt Ace Gunslinger followed by one level of Sniper Slayer, allows you to target touch AC and have them flat footed out to the first range increment of a masterwork crossbow of your choice.
Once you get sneak attack, probably from a certain Inquisitor archetype, you can snipe/sneak attack/bane out to ~120'.
No suppressor or silencing oil required.
Muskets are loud.
Very loud.
You will need many Oils of Silence to even attempt this.
Just curious since I don't use firearms at all. Is there an actual rule in-game for the volume of a musket (or other firearm)?
Because, if not, then by RAW muskets might not be any louder than longbows or thrown daggers - they all make the same sound (the sound of a d20 rolling on the table).
Oke, I love out of the ordinary rule questions.
First, we need to know if there are perception based DC's for hearing for sounds we have in the real world. The perception "notice something" table on D20pfsrd gives us 2 data points of which we know the dB from:Talking and whispering:
Talking is a DC 0 and gives us 70 dB.
Whispering is a DC 15 and gives us 20 dB.
This gives us a formula of DC=-0.3xdB+21
A flintlock gun generates about 155 dB of noise.
-0.3x155+21=DC -26.
Keeping in mind this is from 5 feet away. You won't fire a musket this close. A musket has a range of 5 x 40 ft. = 200 ft.
For every 10 feet, a +1 gets added to the DC.
This will give us a Perception DC of -6.
Hm... This sucks..
Just buy some oil of silence, and you should be good to go...
Or gloves of whispering to negate all noise from any firearm used, more than a one time use.
Pretty damn expensive I must say, but it is a good catch. I just assume he has an antipaladin, bard, cleric, oracle, inquisitor, mesmerist, or psychic in the group. He can cast silence on a rock or something and just put it in your pocket.
Sniper is easier with a longbow. The sniper slayer archetype let's you deal sneak attack from the first range increment rather than 30 feet. Also there's an advanced talent that let's you reduce sniping penalty to 10.
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3 levels of Slayer with rapid shot as a ranger combat feat at 2, 8 levels unchained rogue nets you only 1 level delay in sneak attack progression and allows you to have all the feats necessary as a Halfling to pick up Go Unnoticed, Master Sniper, and Hellcat Stealth, as well as picking up Skill Unlock (Stealth) and the Expert Sniper feat to completely negate the sniping penalty. Pop into stealth on the first round when enemies dont see you, thanks to Go Unnoticed, then use hellcat stealth to snipe twice from anywhere. It's all within the realm of PFS play, too.