[PFS] The littlest Mindblade


Advice

Grand Lodge

First, I know the Mindblade Magus is not the greatest archetype, but I love the flavor, and feel of it.

Now, moving on...

I am looking to put together a Gnome/Halfing Mindblade.

I have some questions on how to go about it:

1) Of the two races, Gnome and Halfling, which best works with the Mindblade?

2) Finesse seems the best route, but what path would be most beneficial. Fencing Grace, Dervish Dance, or something else?

3) How to would one deal with the Concentration penalties?

4) The archetype seems to call for a different Magus build. How does that effect the Stat Array? What should it look like?

5) Finally, I have no real experience with the Psychic Spells. What should a Mindblade spell choice look like?

The Exchange

1) I think that both of them can be good. Halfling has some big points in it's favor:
a) Underfoot racial trait goes well with Risky Striker, and helps AC since you're giving up medium/heavy armor.
e) Fleet of Foot will get you 30 ft movement speed.
i) Risky Striker is a nice way to get damage when not using spell combat
o) Favored Class is 1/6 of a new arcana, which is probably better than some of the selections gnome offers (and some of the better weapon enhancements like holy or energy or bane you can get access with arcana)
u) +2 to Dex instead of Con - this is +1 AC/CMD/reflex save over the gnome, at the expense of 1-20 hp and +1 fortitude save.

2) I would disagree with a weapon finesse build. Everything about Mindblade suggests a STR build.
A) The flexibility of manifesting a light, one-handed, or two-handed (and eventually two or a double weapon) means you can set yourself for the battle as you need to. You can't add the Agile property to your weapon with the arcane pool, which means you're severely limiting yourself to what weapons you want to manifest in order to try to get your dex bonus.
Remember that eventually you will be able to do spell combat while two-weapon fighting or wielding a weapon two-handed, which opens up some exciting options: A charging Lance spellstrike (casting the spell and then delivering it with the weapon attack on a charge in the following round), or spell combat with a reach polearm(!).
A double weapon that you can two-hand when moving into position and then switch to two-weapon fighting seems a decent option. If you take the "Throwing Magus" arcana you can use two-weapon fighting to make some thrown weapon attacks, though I'm not sure if you can deliver touch spells in that way. Regardless, throwing will be strength based again for your damage.

I'd probably try to start with a 14 STR, remembering that as a Magus you can enlarge person/bulls strength yourself to get around the early game hurdle.

3) Combat Casting seems to be the first and obvious choice of feats to help with the Concentration penalties. Uncanny Concentration is probably a really good feat to consider as a follow up, as it will neutralize a lot of the distraction types that cause a problem for you and stack with combat casting for a +6 bonus on concentration checks.
There's a magus arcana called Concentration which lets you reroll a failed concentration check 1/day, too.
Remember as a Magus with Spell Combat that you can sacrifice a certain amount of accuracy to get a bonus on concentration checks - that has good synergy with the Arcane Accuracy arcana to regain the lost accuracy by spending arcane points.

4) My first thought is something like this, for a halfling 20point buy: STR: 14 DEX: 16 CON: 12 INT: 15 WIS: 10 CHA: 9.
You could go for a higher INT for spell DCs, but if you're wanting to spell dc, Gnome is the better option for the effectively free +1 DC to illusion spells/necromancy (with fell magic alternative racial trait). I think I would rely on mostly casting buffs/damage spells with limited saving throws with your spells, however. You get Haste, Enlarge/reduce person, Bulls Strength, etc.

With the lower amount of spells/day, you will have to be more opportunistic with your spellstriking, which makes multi-round combat buffs probably a better choice. As a spontaneous caster you can make the calls on the fly, which is a benefit a normal magus can't.

Damage options can be any combination of Arcane Strike, Power Attack, or possibly including Risky Striker for the halfling. Shocking Grasp with spellstrike is popular as a magus; Two-Weapon Fighting like mentioned above seems useful.
A Mounted Combat build seems possible, but you'll have to invest in some of the Mounted Combat feats (and keeping your mount alive may prove a fun minigame). It doesn't fully come online til later in the game.

Defense you can handle with spells like Shield/Blur/displacement/mirror image/invisibility (and darkness if a gnome). If you go with manifesting a reach weapon, you might be able to stand behind a party member with better AC than yours.

5) I haven't looked at the psychic spells too much. Gnome probably can pick up a few more illusion 'spells' this way that might be useful.

Grand Lodge

Hmm, that gives me some things to consider.

What are some good choices for a first level feat?

Scarab Sages

blackbloodtroll wrote:

3) How to would one deal with the Concentration penalties?

I would actually look for ways to avoid having to make concentration checks in the first place. Use reach weapons, longarm spell, and make use of 5ft steps during the spell combat action so you aren't actually threatened when casting the spell.


Force Punch is a great spell to add to your list, being both Force and Touch. If you dip one level of Psychic, you can get a Phrenic Point pool and the Focused Force amplification to turn those d4's into d6's.

Lantern Lodge

Two things: First, Arcane Strike will not work with a mind blade. You are a psychic caster, not an arcane striker.

Second, although you can manifest a two handed weapon with your mind blade power, there is no indication that you can still use spell combat while wielding a two handed weapon. At level seven you can manifest two weapons (not a two handed weapon) and use spell combat normally. Otherwise two handed weapons are just as bad for a mindblade as they are for any other Magus.


sunnychoco wrote:

1) I think that both of them can be good. Halfling has some big points in it's favor:

a) Underfoot racial trait goes well with Risky Striker, and helps AC since you're giving up medium/heavy armor.
e) Fleet of Foot will get you 30 ft movement speed.
i) Risky Striker is a nice way to get damage when not using spell combat.

Now that the AC penalty for Risky Striker scales, I'm not so sure it is a great idea.


Genuine wrote:
Two things: First, Arcane Strike will not work with a mind blade. You are a psychic caster, not an arcane striker.

True.

Genuine wrote:
Second, although you can manifest a two handed weapon with your mind blade power, there is no indication that you can still use spell combat while wielding a two handed weapon.

You can't use Spell Combat with a two-handed weapon until level 13 when that ability is specifically granted.

Occult Adventures wrote:
Dual Manifest (Su): At 13th level, a mindblade can manifest two psychic weapons with the same action. She must pay the cost for both weapons. Also, when wielding a weapon two-handed, she can use her spell combat ability as though she had a hand free. This ability replaces heavy armor.

Lantern Lodge

Gisher wrote:
Genuine wrote:
Two things: First, Arcane Strike will not work with a mind blade. You are a psychic caster, not an arcane striker.

True.

Genuine wrote:
Second, although you can manifest a two handed weapon with your mind blade power, there is no indication that you can still use spell combat while wielding a two handed weapon.
You can't use Spell Combat with a two-handed weapon until level 13 when that ability is specifically granted.

My bad. My play is entirely PFS, so I tend to ignore level 12+ class features. Thanks for pointing it out for me.


Genuine wrote:
Gisher wrote:
Genuine wrote:
Two things: First, Arcane Strike will not work with a mind blade. You are a psychic caster, not an arcane striker.

True.

Genuine wrote:
Second, although you can manifest a two handed weapon with your mind blade power, there is no indication that you can still use spell combat while wielding a two handed weapon.
You can't use Spell Combat with a two-handed weapon until level 13 when that ability is specifically granted.
My bad. My play is entirely PFS, so I tend to ignore level 12+ class features. Thanks for pointing it out for me.

I was actually trying to support your position. You were right to be skeptical. :)

Because it is buried in the Dual Manifest ability (which I just added to my post above) lots of people have been assuming that you can use S.C. with pole arms from 1st level on. But I'm afraid if you want reach at low levels (or ever in PFS) you are stuck with whips like every other magus.

The Exchange

For a first level feat, I'd probably go with Arcane Strike or Combat Casting.

Combat casting will probably be extremely useful until you get the ability to spell combat with a two-handed weapon (level 13), when you can stand back and poke things with an enlarge person+reach weapon.

Arcane strike seems like a nice way to shore up damage without sacrificing your attack bonus. However, I think swift action economy will be extremely important for the Mindblade, due to your arcane pool points and especially once you hit 8th level and can manifest a psychic weapon with a swift action.

I think there are good reasons for both. Your weapon's scaling enhancement bonus is good (+2 weapon at level 3), so the extra damage from Arcane Strike isn't that sorely needed. However, I think setting up for gloves of Arcane Striking could make for a fun build. Getting Helpful (Halfling) trait makes the gloves even better.

Similarly, combat casting seems like it'll be needed in tight spots. This is probably anecdotal to the way campaigns I'm in have been, but I almost can't imagine playing a spellcaster without Uncanny Concentration, and considering that it'll remove a lot of potential concentration checks for you, it seems pretty good for a psychic spell caster.

Some other interesting things about the versatility of the Mindblade- you can dismiss your psychic blade as a free action (which returns the points you have invested in it), though manifesting it is a standard action until level 8. Level 13 lets you manifest two weapons with the same action, which could lead to, again, some nice versatility - using a two-handed weapon when closing in, and then switching to two-weapon fighting + spell combat when you can make your full attack.

For level 1, a 14 STR on a halfling or gnome isn't too bad. Your attack bonus will be +2(Str)+1(Size)+1(Weapon Enhancement) for a +4 to hit, and if you're manifesting a 2-handed weapon (lucerne hammer or greatsword?) you are looking at 1d10+3(str)+1(weapon enhancement).
Arcane Strike will give another 1 damage, for 1d10+5 at a +4 to hit. Your weapon is already magical for purposes of damage reduction, too.

With a one-handed weapon (like a longsword or a battleaxe), 1d6+3(str)+1(weapon enhancement)+1(arcane strike) for 1d6+5, which is better than a medium sized Dex magus with his scimitar at the same level (dervish dance comes online at level 3). Fencing grace requires 3 feats, so doesn't come online until level 3 for humans or later for everyone else.

Combat Reflexes pairs nicely with the +2 reach weapon you'll be able to manifest, and uses that dex bonus to help. It'll up your action economy, too. You could get some really good synergy between Combat Reflexes, Bodyguard (at 5th) and gloves of Arcane Striking + Helpful (Halfling) trait to support your allies.

5th or 7th level feat: Two-Weapon Fighting (you can manifest a double weapon or two weapons at 7th- I guess you COULD carry a normal weapon and do this as soon as level 3 with one normal weapon and your manifested one.

If you do want to use Two-Weapon Fighting at a lower level, carrying a normal weapon lets you combine it with your psychic weapon, and if you want to Spell Combat/Spellstrike, you can dismiss your psychic weapon as a free action and use the normal weapon in conjunction with spell combat/spell strike. In which case, it makes sense to have your normal weapon be a one handed, and manifest a light weapon for your off hand.

Dealing with psychic spellcasting and concentration:
Basically your spells have [emotion] and/or [thought] descriptors.
[emotion] = somatic component, [thought] = verbal component. The spells that require a [thought] component are the ones that give you a -10 penalty for concentration checks. Unfortunately, things like Shocking Grasp have a verbal component, and therefore will fall under this umbrella.

Note: You can spend a move action focusing to make the concentration check at the normal DC. However, does that move action provoke? It doesn't say, but there's a good argument that it's 'distracting' and therefore provokes an AoO. Anyway, because Spell Combat is a full-round action, it won't help you cast defensively for a Spell Combat combination.

Like all spell casting, you'll provoke an AoO if you don't try to cast defensively, and if you get hit, then you're looking at an even worse concentration check to make.

The DCs for casting defensively are +10 (for your verbal/thought components), which gives you a DC range of 27-37. That's pretty dire, especially at low levels.

You'll have your Caster level (1-20) + your INT score. When a magus is doing spell combat and casting defensively, you can take an attack roll penalty up to your INT modifier and add it to your concentration check.

Combat Casting: +4 on your concentration checks when grappled or casting defensively.
Uncanny Concentration: You don't have to worry about making concentration checks in weather/vigorous motion such as while riding a mount among other things, which effectively negates that -10 penalty in almost all other circumstances. It gives a +2 bonus to other concentration checks, which brings you up to a +6 bonus on your defensive casting check.

The Concentrate magus arcana lets you reroll a failed concentration check with a +4 bonus once per day.

Gloves of elvenkind will give a +5 bonus casting defensively.

There are some spells like Illusion of Calm which circumvents the problem by making you not provoke when you cast a spell, so you don't have to cast defensively.

Unfortunately, as a halfling or gnome, enlarge person doesn't really help with this like it would by increasing a medium creature's reach to large. Longarm is a spell you could use to get reach, however.

Lunge is a feat you could get at level 8, which could help with two-weapon fighting and/or spell combat.

Like imbicatus said above, it's probably better to avoid having to make the checks, using your 5 foot steps. Unfortunately you can't spell combat with a two-handed weapon until level 13, but you can spellstrike to deliver with a two-handed melee weapon from level 2.

I still think it's probably better to use your limited spell slots to be getting/giving buffs/defensive abilities and still hold the trump card like a shocking grasp with spontaneous casting if you need to do some more damage.

Remember though that spontaneous casting with metamagic (intensified or otherwise) increases the spell casting time to a full-round action, which means you can't do the normal Spell combat+intensified shocking grasp that a magus can. That's why I'm not really recommending the magical lineage/intensified route.

Frostbite is probably the better 'attack' spell since it lasts for several attacks, and if you go two-weapon fighting you can conceivably deliver a few of them with spellstrike fairly quickly.

Overall, the Mindblade feels like it sacrifices the immediate damage spike for much better endurance and some weapon flexibility.
Your weapon enhancement lasts all day, so you have a +2 reach weapon at level 3, while a normal magus can only enhance for a few minutes.

The Exchange

Genuine wrote:

Two things: First, Arcane Strike will not work with a mind blade. You are a psychic caster, not an arcane striker.

Second, although you can manifest a two handed weapon with your mind blade power, there is no indication that you can still use spell combat while wielding a two handed weapon. At level seven you can manifest two weapons (not a two handed weapon) and use spell combat normally. Otherwise two handed weapons are just as bad for a mindblade as they are for any other Magus.

Good point about Arcane Strike, totally forgot. I'll have to change what I just typed up!

At level seven you can manifest two weapons or a double weapon (and you can manifest a two-handed weapon at level 1, for three points).

For two-handed weapon, you get the ability at Level 13 under dual manifest to use spell combat while wielding a two-handed weapon.

Gisher wrote:


Now that the AC penalty for Risky Striker scales, I'm not so sure it is a great idea.

I am not convinced it's a good idea, either. However, with my theme of defensive spells to make up for the light armor AC, the Magus does get things like Mirror Image, Displacement and Greater Invisibility, which can make sacrificing the AC for Damage potentially a decent alternative to power attack's sacrificing of accuracy. However, the argument certainly can be made in the opposite way, that you can buff the accuracy to reduce the power attack penalty.

I feel like you're solving two birds with one stone (you still have to deal with the low AC with magic if you're power attacking). However, I don't remember how the new Risky Striker works- if it's limited by the type of weapon or not.


....I can't resist:

My little Mindblade!
Littlest Mindblade!
What will today's Adventure be?
Cuttin the throat of all my enemies!

Grand Lodge

Would things like Silent Spell, and Still Spell, work on Psychic spells, to remove the Concentration penalty causing components?

Is there not some feat/item that removes it?

Scarab Sages

There is logical spell and another metamagic feat that work like silent/still in the book.

Grand Lodge

Okay, it seems that only Spells with the Thought Descriptor impose the penalty.

I don't see a penalty for Emotion Descriptor Spells, but rather, they cannot while under the influence of a non-harmless effect with the
emotion or fear descriptor.

Would some sort of Intuitive Spell + Magical Lineage + Spontaneous Metafocus combo be a better option, rather than massively pumping Concentration?

Scarab Sages

It's definitely not a bad idea if you are like most magi and specializing in Shocking Grasp or Frostbite.

Grand Lodge

I just wanted to see if there was another way to deal with Concentration.

Grand Lodge

I am quite sure if that would work better though.

RPG Superstar 2014 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2013 Top 16

Is there a reason you're not considering Wayang?

Grand Lodge

RainyDayNinja wrote:
Is there a reason you're not considering Wayang?

Lack of art??!? XP

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as a favorite.

No, really, the idea in my head has no place for Wayang.

The Gnome/Halfing combo with this, is what really inspired me.

I like to optimize, but only to fit a concept.

Otherwise known as "practical optimization".

Nothing PFS legal fits, currently, but Gnome/Halfling.

I wish there was a small Aasimar/Tiefling option, but even a race boon doesn't help.

Grand Lodge

So, with the previous suggestions, I have put together a very rough build:

Littlest Mindblade:
Unnamed Hero
Halfling magus (mindblade) 1 (Pathfinder RPG Ultimate Magic 9)
N Small humanoid (halfling)
Init +3; Senses Perception +0
--------------------
Defense
--------------------
AC 16, touch 14, flat-footed 13 (+2 armor, +3 Dex, +1 size)
hp 10 (1d8+2)
Fort +3, Ref +3 (+1 bonus vs. trample attacks), Will +2; +2 vs. fear
Defensive Abilities underfoot; Resist underfoot
--------------------
Offense
--------------------
Speed 30 ft.
Melee mindblade +4 (1d4+3/18-20)
Special Attacks low blow, psychic pool (+1, 3 points), spell combat
Magus (Mindblade) Spells Known (CL 1st; concentration +5)
. . 1st (2/day)—shield, shocking grasp
. . 0 (at will)—acid splash, arcane mark, detect magic, ghost sound (DC 12)
--------------------
Statistics
--------------------
Str 14, Dex 16, Con 12, Int 15, Wis 10, Cha 9
Base Atk +0; CMB +1; CMD 14
Feats Combat Casting
Traits bandit (river kingdoms), desperate focus
Skills Craft (alchemy) +6, Knowledge (arcana) +6, Spellcraft +6, Stealth +14
Languages Common, Halfling, Osiriani, Varisian
SQ phrenology (knowledge [arcana])
Other Gear lamellar cuirass, masterwork tool, 85 gp
--------------------
Special Abilities
--------------------
Bandit (River Kingdoms, Stealth) +1 to Stealth checks, Stealth is always a class skill for you.
Combat Casting +4 to Concentration checks to cast while on the defensive.
Fearless +2 racial bonus vs Fear saves.
Low Blow +1 to critical confirmation rolls against larger creatures.
Phrenology (Knowledge [Arcana], 1/day) Examine a creature's skull to learn it's psychological attributes.
Psychic Pool +1 (3/day) (Su) Summon a weapon made of pure psychic energy.
Spell Combat (Ex) Use a weapon with one hand at -2 and cast a spell with the other.
Underfoot +1 AC vs. larger opponents and +1 save vs. trample

Thoughts?

Silver Crusade

blackbloodtroll wrote:

So, with the previous suggestions, I have put together a very rough build:

** spoiler omitted **...

There is no point to taking combat casting if you are not going to spend every resource on it. DC for a lvl 1 spell is 27. You will need a 20 unless you take a -2 to hit during spell combat. Even if you do, you need an 18. not worth it. You will end up losing a spell AND missing your attack most likely.

Grand Lodge

Hmm, that would alter feat choice then.

Suggestions?

Grand Lodge

Is it really best to go strength?

Would a Dex build be a poor choice?

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