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Thinking about the army in the movie Hero that used bows while sitting, bow braced by the feet and drew the string back with hands. How would you do this in pf? I'm thinking of making it effectively one size larger, 1 1/2 str bonus comp bow. Requires a move action to load and must be prone or sitting to load and fire? Obviously not ideal for adventurers, but for massed goons, maybe interesting.
Its called a footbow, I believe, its been done numerous times.
Simplest version is nearly always something similiar to longbow +50% range, +50% damage, +50% cost, cannot use normal arrows, and naturely you must be prone to shoot.
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I really like that movie. As for the bows, I'd think that increased range and decreased accuracy would make sense given that they're basically being used like small siege weapons. If it were a Large longbow it would do 2d6 damage and get a -2 to hit.
I'd suggest making this weapon even slower to reload. Shooting it once per round with Rapid Reload or once per two rounds without it would seem reasonable to me. Otherwise you'll have people with Rapid Reload doing a full attack with Rapid Shot and Manyshot using the footbow (likely while being hauled around on a cart or a Floating Disk - perhaps even just scuttling around prone with a Weasel Belt)
If you wanted to mess around with the Strength bonus I'd suggest that rather than using 1.5 times the user's Str mod you could just allow folks to use a bow with a Str mod higher than the user's by a point or two. Making the footbow an Exotic weapon might help explain why only specially trained soldiers from some particular province/race/etc generally use it.
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As regards the Hero footbows, (awesome movie, awesome scene) remember that they are crew-operated - one guy nocks the arrow, one guy draws the bow.
With that in mind.
Siege Bow. 2d6, 150 foot range, x3 critical multiplier.
A siege bow acts as a composite bow which adds 1 1/2 times the bow's Strength modifier to attack rolls, but requires a DC 15+(strength modifier requirement) Strength Check to load. It is possible to ignore this strength check by loading the bow while prone, holding the string with both hands and pushing on the belly of the bow with your feet. Aiming with the feet gives a -4 penalty to attack rolls.
It requires a full-round action to load a siege bow, but someone benefiting from the Aid Another action to reload can do so in a move action. This also reduces the penalty for aiming with the feet to -2.
It'd be an awkwardly unyielding weapon - not suited for expert marksmen with iterative attacks, but a more devastating weapon than the longbow or heavy crossbow if someone has the manpower for loaders and archers both. An expert archer could use one to make absolutely terrifying Vital Strikes if they wanted, though.
I really like that movie. As for the bows, I'd think that increased range and decreased accuracy would make sense given that they're basically being used like small siege weapons. If it were a Large longbow it would do 2d6 damage and get a -2 to hit.
I'd suggest making this weapon even slower to reload. Shooting it once per round with Rapid Reload or once per two rounds without it would seem reasonable to me. Otherwise you'll have people with Rapid Reload doing a full attack with Rapid Shot and Manyshot using the footbow (likely while being hauled around on a cart or a Floating Disk - perhaps even just scuttling around prone with a Weasel Belt)
If you wanted to mess around with the Strength bonus I'd suggest that rather than using 1.5 times the user's Str mod you could just allow folks to use a bow with a Str mod higher than the user's by a point or two. Making the footbow an Exotic weapon might help explain why only specially trained soldiers from some particular province/race/etc generally use it.
You say that as if these things are the nonsensical stuff that high level adventures do normally. I could understand needing to be prone to shoot it (which still give a significant penalty if anything gets next to you) and most of the other stuff, but that's a rather harsh reload when you can fire a bow normally while prone already.
I think it is only crossbows you can shoot while prone, not regular bows. At least it was that way in 3.5. I guess it might have been changed in Pathfinder without me noticing.
High level adventurers can indeed perform a lot of fairly silly actions. I guess people rapid firing "footbows" might fit the style some folks want in their games, but it isn't quite right for me. In game terms a ballista is a really big crossbow which is harder to load and does more damage. The footbow seems like something fairly similar to me.
In any event, I could imagine flying races being very interested in a "footbow".
While I agree a ballista would take those extra actions, a foot bow is still not significantly stronger than a composite bow, and since your using your entire back to draw the bow instead of just your arms and back-shoulder muscles, the only issue would be spatial issues.
Fliers with the foot bow kind of negate the necessity for being prone so it would look silly how they fire it more than anything, not that it wouldn't be good.
A foot bow is MUCH stronger then a composite bow in all reality. Getting your legs to power the bow gives you incredible power. Foot bows were a real thing in the Chinese armor in lieu of using heavy crossbows. Look at the size of the arrows they were shooting...and at massive range.
I believe the world distance record for footbow shooting is in excess of a thousand yards. For a longbow it's in the 600's or so.
==Aelryinth
3.5 Had rules for a Footbow.
They were designed with Raptorans in mind; Pathfinder basically has an equivalent of them in the Stryx Race.
This exotic weapon resembles a composite longbow but is designed to be used in flight, with the archer holding the bow in her feet and drawing it with one or both hands. Like a composite longbow (see page 119 of the Player’s Handbook), all footbows are made with a particular strength rating. If a character’s Strength bonus is less than the strength rating of the footbow, she can’t effectively use it, so she takes a –2 penalty on attacks with it. The default footbow requires a Strength bonus of +0 or higher to use with profi ciency. A footbow can be made with a high strength rating just as a composite longbow can; each point of Strength bonus granted by the bow adds 100 gp to its cost.
Stats (Medium): 1d8 Pierce; x3; 110ft. range; 3lb.; 150gp
I tend to use Greatbows in my games (EW; 1d10; x3; 130ft; 5lb.; 115gp)
I could see a Footbow being a grade up from the Greatbow:
Exotic Weapon; 1d12; x4; 150ft. range; 10lb.; 500gp; Special: Requires a Standard Action to Reload.
A foot bow is MUCH stronger then a composite bow in all reality. Getting your legs to power the bow gives you incredible power. Foot bows were a real thing in the Chinese armor in lieu of using heavy crossbows. Look at the size of the arrows they were shooting...and at massive range.
I believe the world distance record for footbow shooting is in excess of a thousand yards. For a longbow it's in the 600's or so.
==Aelryinth
your still drawing it with almost every flexing muscle in your body (which as a medical student I can tell you is about 300 pounds (or almost a metric ton for you europoors), and we are talking adventurers doing this meaning the obese are taken out of the average.
uh, what? 300 lbs and a metric ton are VERY different. A metric ton is about 2200 lbs (1000 kg). I thought the top limit of a footbow was in the 1k range (basically, you hold on with both hands and do a leg press. You can leg press more weight then any other part of your body).
Your waist muscles only come into play for aiming.
==Aelryinth
your still drawing it with almost every flexing muscle in your body (which as a medical student I can tell you is about 300 pounds (or almost a metric ton for you europoors)
Being a medical student requires a knowledge of biochemistry.
Biochemistry requires an intimate knowledge of the Metric system.
...
remind me to stay far, FAR away from where you practice, buddy (like... not-even-in-the-same-state far)
Always interesting to see how a thread can start from a simple rule based question, and go elsewhwere.
So I think I will go with an exotic weapon, dmg as a one size up comp longbow, 1.5 str bonus, 150 rng or so, move to load, prone to load and fire. This is for a homebre tribal race of bullywog types (half grippli half goblin, sort of). Mostly used by the dedicated village gaurds rather than hunting parties the pcs might encounter out and about.
naturely you must be prone to shoot.
or flying
uh, what? 300 lbs and a metric ton are VERY different. A metric ton is about 2200 lbs (1000 kg). I thought the top limit of a footbow was in the 1k range (basically, you hold on with both hands and do a leg press. You can leg press more weight then any other part of your body).
Your waist muscles only come into play for aiming.
==Aelryinth
I had the conversion mixed, I was thinking 2.6 kg to a lb (which is the conversion from cm to in. respectively). "almost every" also means that yes, your laterals' strength are going to aiming, but your back, arms, deltoids, quads, and potentially calves are pulling everything. I'm also assuming it isn't actually a metric ton to draw the thing (slight research pulls up a (cross)bow used by pre-medieval drawn by the legs and arms but fired like a bow, modern recreations estimate a draw weight at 500 pounds); so your STR 16 bowman has more than enough strength to draw the bow with "ease" so if a normal long-bowman can draw a longbow in no game-mechanic-time (when the normal draw strength of longbows can reach 200 pounds) then it seems fair an adventurer who wishes to employ this weapon can do it as a free action, imo.
your still drawing it with almost every flexing muscle in your body (which as a medical student I can tell you is about 300 pounds (or almost a metric ton for you europoors)Being a medical student requires a knowledge of biochemistry.
Biochemistry requires an intimate knowledge of the Metric system.
...
remind me to stay far, FAR away from where you practice, buddy (like... not-even-in-the-same-state far)
Sorry, it was 9PM for me, after being up for 16+ hours, working for 8 of them and doing a 4 hour lecture and working in the rat-lab for 2. (Also I'm not a medical student so much as medical research, but you get the jest.)
Actually, you 'draw' a footbow by doing a leg press. That can easily reach 800+ lbs. You just 'hang onto' the string and aim with your waist.
You aren't pulling it by doing a reverse sit-up.
==Aelryinth
I'm saying the draw weight of the bow, not what the person can do, unless that's what your saying as well. You still use your arms and upper back muscles for that, and, depending on the shape of the bow, you'd have to at least crunch to knock an arrow then stretch back out; not exactly a reverse sit up but that's not what I was actually meaning to describe.
yOU CAN 'lift' a lot more off the ground then you can 'hoist' to shoulder height. You aren't pulling the footbow back to shoulder height so much as holding it fairly steady as your legs press it out to full length, then letting it go.
That's the difference in the draw between a foot bow and a bow. All the stress is on the legs, the hands, arms and waist aren't actually doing much more then 'holding on'.
==Aelryinth
So you are saying you don't/can't get in a crunch position to knock the arrow, leg press the bow down and then perform the same motions as a dead lift to pull your back to the ground and your arms to the bottom of your chin but instead you start with your arms under your chin and then just leg press it?
Pics I've seen of it don't even have you drawing back to your chin. breastbone is about as high as they go, and sometimes not even then. Given the length of the average person's legs, that's not out of line. A full leg extension from feet to chin would be FIVE FEET. Most arrows and bolts aren't that long. That's a decent size javelin, not an arrow or bolt.
A yard long shaft could indeed be done with just a leg press and little more then 'hanging on' around the navel.
Even using a four foot shaft, the gut is about as high as you'll need to go.
==Aelryinth
I would not want to be on the receiving end of one of these.
Consensus seems to be:
Limit rate of fire (1/round)
2D6+1.5xSTR
-2 to hit
Ouch.
Massed fire of these would hurt. A lot.
I personally prefer the idea of allowing you to use a slightly higher Str mod more than 1.5 Str since it would be of greater benefit to masses of "average Joe" (or "average Cho") soldiers. Obviously that would make it an oddball weapon though I've always felt that crossbows should operate in a similar manner with "heavier" draws requiring a longer time and perhaps more equipment to reload.
Pics I've seen of it don't even have you drawing back to your chin. breastbone is about as high as they go, and sometimes not even then. Given the length of the average person's legs, that's not out of line. A full leg extension from feet to chin would be FIVE FEET. Most arrows and bolts aren't that long. That's a decent size javelin, not an arrow or bolt.
A yard long shaft could indeed be done with just a leg press and little more then 'hanging on' around the navel.
Even using a four foot shaft, the gut is about as high as you'll need to go.
==Aelryinth
I would agree with you there if it weren't for the fact that people in the middle ages averaged about 4-5 ft in height making to the chin more reasonable for their height (I personally am 6'3" and completely recognize a 5'8" arrow shaft would be completely ridiculous except for comedic effect) but a 4ft arrows shaft would have gone from leg to under the chin of most people from the time period. Granted PF doesn't really have 4 ft tall people and they model it off of modern heights but that means that the weapon's size would be adjusted too.
Looking at the 1.5 str bonus vs allowing the use of a higher str mod weapon reminds me of a houserule I have seen, and used. When you get 1.5 str mod it alwsys gives at least a +1 over your standard mod.
I personally prefer the idea of allowing you to use a slightly higher Str mod more than 1.5 Str since it would be of greater benefit to masses of "average Joe" (or "average Cho") soldiers. Obviously that would make it an oddball weapon though I've always felt that crossbows should operate in a similar manner with "heavier" draws requiring a longer time and perhaps more equipment to reload.
14 STR is where you start seeing benefits from a 1.5 STR MOD which is significantly high for an "Average Joe" to me, however I like the idea of a "heavier crossbow" that does give that in a compound bow style.
It always gives at least a +1 over your standard mod
So it gives a STR mod of 1.5 Minimum 2 (assuming you have a str mod).
I would agree with you there if it weren't for the fact that people in the middle ages averaged about 4-5 ft in height making to the chin more reasonable for their height (I personally am 6'3" and completely recognize a 5'8" arrow shaft would be completely ridiculous except for comedic effect) but a 4ft arrows shaft would have gone from leg to under the chin of most people from the time period. Granted PF doesn't really have 4 ft tall people and they model it off of modern heights but that means that the weapon's size would be adjusted too.Pics I've seen of it don't even have you drawing back to your chin. breastbone is about as high as they go, and sometimes not even then. Given the length of the average person's legs, that's not out of line. A full leg extension from feet to chin would be FIVE FEET. Most arrows and bolts aren't that long. That's a decent size javelin, not an arrow or bolt.
A yard long shaft could indeed be done with just a leg press and little more then 'hanging on' around the navel.
Even using a four foot shaft, the gut is about as high as you'll need to go.
==Aelryinth
It does too have 4 foot people. Dwarves.
:P
I would agree with you there if it weren't for the fact that people in the middle ages averaged about 4-5 ft in height making to the chin more reasonable for their height (I personally am 6'3" and completely recognize a 5'8" arrow shaft would be completely ridiculous except for comedic effect) but a 4ft arrows shaft would have gone from leg to under the chin of most people from the time period. Granted PF doesn't really have 4 ft tall people and they model it off of modern heights but that means that the weapon's size would be adjusted too.Pics I've seen of it don't even have you drawing back to your chin. breastbone is about as high as they go, and sometimes not even then. Given the length of the average person's legs, that's not out of line. A full leg extension from feet to chin would be FIVE FEET. Most arrows and bolts aren't that long. That's a decent size javelin, not an arrow or bolt.
A yard long shaft could indeed be done with just a leg press and little more then 'hanging on' around the navel.
Even using a four foot shaft, the gut is about as high as you'll need to go.
==Aelryinth
It does too have 4 foot people. Dwarves.
:P
They don't count, they use crossbows (which would be a good implementation of DevilKiller's idea.
By that standard, longbows were only 5' high at best, and shortbows less then 3'. Everything would scale down, ranges would shift, blah blah...
Work with the modern stuff. Its what is 'normal' now, and would be for 'exceptional' people back then.
And 'low height' were typical cultures where a lot of meat wasn't eaten. Northern Europeans have been 'tall' for ages.
==Aelryinth
That's fair but out of curiosity, didn't you say the people who used foot bows came from the middle eastern area?
Foot bows were used most in the FAR east, particularly china, as alternatives to H crossbows for siege warfare, particularly in BC times (before xbows were invented!).
They've been seen all over the world anywhere there's an archery tradition, it just doesn't see much use once crossbows actually exist, as xbows require less training and are easier to use and aim.
==Aelryinth