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No one likes having to spend standard actions buffing unless it buffs the whole party. Swift action buffing is the saving grace of the warpriest. The class would be pointless without it. The inquisitor does have a lot more out of combat utility. The knowledge skills and social skills are way too handy to give up. The warpriest fights. That's pretty much it. The inquisitor has a myriad of skills, is an expert on monsters of all types, and can navigate social encounters. A warpriest may have a few ranks in knowledge:religion and diplomacy if he didn't tank int, which is basically a dump stat for him. I kind of think of the inquisitor as the first hybrid class. It seems like a cleric/ranger to me.
I know why they changed it, but now the archetype is just bad.The reason they removed pseudo-full-BAB was that the Sacred Fist already has massive swift-action combat buffing through spells. When a Sacred Fist hits level 9 and reaches a 3 point deficit on BAB, they're effortlessly able to toss on a +4 bonus to attack as well as damage. Back when they were able to go pseudo-full-BAB and go 'two-handed TWF' and toss on a huge swift-action combat buff, they were actually pretty absurd.Sacred Fist also suffers from the problem that they removed the part of Flurry where you treat your HD as your base BAB for a flurry.
So the Sacred Fist Warpriest gets hit with the TWF penalties without getting the bonus to hit. A level 10 sacred fist warpriest will have an effective BAB of +5/+5/+0/+0.
Well, the numbers I've run on going two-hander flurry Sacred Fist would disagree with that assessment. Plenty of damage per attack + tons of attacks per turn statistically drowns out the accuracy loss.
Assuming the same strength and weapon, a basic Barbarian at 8 will have full BAB and "+3" from Rage and Furious weapon, while a Sacred Fist will have 2 lower BAB and a -2 from Flurry that's offset by one less Power Attack penalty and +3 from Favor. So the Sacred Fist has 3 less accuracy, but up to twice as many attacks with fairly comparable damage (say, ~27 vs ~33). If the Barbarian is rolling at something like 85%/85%/60%, they're looking at an average of ~76 before crits. If the Sacred Fist is rolling at 70%/70%/45%/45%/70%/70%, they're looking at an average of ~99 before crits, which is a damn avalanche of damage. Back when the Sacred Fist had full BAB for another 3 points of attack and damage they would be clocking in at more like ~135, which is just nuclear.
The problem is that there's nothing thematically that the Warpriest brings to the table that isn't already covered by the Cleric, the Paladin, or the Inquisitor.For the most part, that can be said of all hybrid classes - but they do fit a specific set of themes - which is really what class choice SHOULD be about.I was digging the warpriest, but the more I think about it, the more I realize anything you can do with a warpriest can generally be done better with another class. All it really has is swift action buffs and bonus feats. It's like a fighter that has to cast spells to be as good as fighter with a bit of self healing. Generally, an inquisitor does a better job at anything you'd want a warpriest for.
The only class should be the fighter! Every other class is thematically redundant.
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Also I necroed this thread a couple of weeks ago but nobody answered me this: Is the divine commander archetype considered bad compared to the baseline or other archetypes?
This is just my opinion, but I consider the Divine Commander a terrible trade-off. I also generally dislike Teamwork Feats, so that plays into it as well. But giving up both Blessings for a mount and some Bonus Feats (which you kind of need for mounted combat), and still being a very low Skill Point Class that now needs even more skill points to function just feels like a disaster.
Generally speaking, the game doesn't really support mounted characters well (often enough) that focusing on them is also sort of asking to not be able to utilize your build most of the time.
Waiting until level 12 to get the ability to use Teamwork Feat Mass as a Swift Action rather than a Standard seems incredibly late. The Cavalier gets this at 9th, and even that seems 3 or 4 levels far too late. The Divine Commander also only gets 2 Teamwork Feats that they can use with their Tactician Ability, one at 3rd and one at 12th, and my understanding is that they can only use Tactician on those specific Bonus Feats, not any other Bonus or normal Feat used to get a Teamwork Feat, which further makes this ability very bland and circumstantial.
All in all, I think the Divine Commander took the absolute worst portions of the Cavalier, while leaving a lot of the worthwhile ones, (Challenge, Charge, Order), and forgot about the skill points.
Now, all of that being said, I've never played one, so I could be wrong.
I know why they changed it, but now the archetype is just bad.The reason they removed pseudo-full-BAB was that the Sacred Fist already has massive swift-action combat buffing through spells. When a Sacred Fist hits level 9 and reaches a 3 point deficit on BAB, they're effortlessly able to toss on a +4 bonus to attack as well as damage. Back when they were able to go pseudo-full-BAB and go 'two-handed TWF' and toss on a huge swift-action combat buff, they were actually pretty absurd.Sacred Fist also suffers from the problem that they removed the part of Flurry where you treat your HD as your base BAB for a flurry.
So the Sacred Fist Warpriest gets hit with the TWF penalties without getting the bonus to hit. A level 10 sacred fist warpriest will have an effective BAB of +5/+5/+0/+0.
Well, the numbers I've run on going two-hander flurry Sacred Fist would disagree with that assessment. Plenty of damage per attack + tons of attacks per turn statistically drowns out the accuracy loss.
Assuming the same strength and weapon, a basic Barbarian at 8 will have full BAB and "+3" from Rage and Furious weapon, while a Sacred Fist will have 2 lower BAB and a -2 from Flurry that's offset by one less Power Attack penalty and +3 from Favor. So the Sacred Fist has 3 less accuracy, but up to twice as many attacks with fairly comparable damage (say, ~27 vs ~33). If the Barbarian is rolling at something like 85%/85%/60%, they're looking at an average of ~76 before crits. If the Sacred Fist is rolling at 70%/70%/45%/45%/70%/70%, they're looking at an average of ~99 before crits, which is a damn avalanche of damage. Back when the Sacred Fist had full BAB for another 3 points of attack and damage they would be clocking in at more like ~135, which is just nuclear.
Sacred Fist doesn't really gain anything over a war priest that simply takes TWF, and you're method is the only method that makes it okay which is Flurry with a weapon. The idea for the archetype is to use your Sacred Fist. It fails miserably at using unarmed strikes. A base War Priest in medium armor with the TWF feats will do as well if not better than a Sacred Fist.
Without the ability to use a swift action (dazed) or speak (paralyzed), how would you use quicken still surmount affliction? Was that supposed to be quicken silent surmount affliction for the paralysis cure at least?Crap, I forgot Verbal components.
And as a prepared caster, Silent spell is not your friend.
Hrm. =/
I was all set to make an "unstoppable" Half-Orc Warpriest build. Puts a damper on my plans.
Well hm. I guess Magical Lineage plus Surmount Affliction could work.
Maybe VMC Battle Oracle with Deaf curse. all spells are now silent. War Sight Revelation and deaf kinda cancel each other initiative-wise.
Sacred Fist doesn't really gain anything over a war priest that simply takes TWF, and you're method is the only method that makes it okay which is Flurry with a weapon. The idea for the archetype is to use your Sacred Fist. It fails miserably at using unarmed strikes. A base War Priest in medium armor with the TWF feats will do as well if not better than a Sacred Fist.
Weapon-based Sacred Fist definitely has advantages over regular TWF Warpriest, if that's what you mean. As far as unarmed goes, I haven't checked on how unarmed Sacred Fist stacks up, since I prefer armed-Monk-types and don't really care about it otherwise. If you want to say that it's conceptually bad because it doesn't do unarmed as well as it should, that's fine; but that's a long way from just saying 'it's bad'.
I would guess that as an unarmed combatant it would be pretty similar to TWF Warpriest functionally, with the principle difference being the 'feel' of it due to Monk features and Ki replacing normal Warpriest features and armor.
I feel like trying a TWF Dagger-Warpriest of Pharasma, but i guess i want to roll 3 or 4 levels of Urogue first or something like that.
*sigh* the things you have to do to not be MAD. ( Both the acronym and the actual word :P )
I feel like trying a TWF Dagger-Warpriest of Pharasma, but i guess i want to roll 3 or 4 levels of Urogue first or something like that.
*sigh* the things you have to do to not be MAD. ( Both the acronym and the actual word :P )
Dual Talent Human makes strength-based TWF pretty easy. There's also Garuda-Blooded Aasimar for DEX/WIS, which is almost as useful and has interesting racial options.
With the +2 attack Deific Obedience feat and Warpriest bonuses, having a maxed-out strength is very unnecessary anyhow.
I feel like trying a TWF Dagger-Warpriest of Pharasma, but i guess i want to roll 3 or 4 levels of Urogue first or something like that.
*sigh* the things you have to do to not be MAD. ( Both the acronym and the actual word :P )
Dual Talent Human makes strength-based TWF pretty easy. There's also Garuda-Blooded Aasimar for DEX/WIS, which is almost as useful and has interesting racial options.
With the +2 attack Deific Obedience feat and Warpriest bonuses, having a maxed-out strength is very unnecessary anyhow.
Well you still need quite a bit of dex to get the TWF stuff, the idea was to get rid of the need of str.
In the long run i think it might be better just to rely on Divine Favor and have Deific obedience and/or weapon focus with daggers and you have your hit and damage down.
I know that most people dont pick up greater TWF, but i personally dont mind that last -10 attack. ( as its just a extra normal 3rd iterative )
In the long run i think it might be better just to rely on Divine Favor and have Deific obedience and/or weapon focus with daggers and you have your hit and damage down.
I know that most people dont pick up greater TWF, but i personally dont mind that last -10 attack. ( as its just a extra normal 3rd iterative )
Strength will just always have a major damage advantage, especially if you're taking Two-Weapon Rend instead of Greater Two-Weapon Fighting. Greater TWF ends up being a waste of your precious Warpriest 12 bonus feat compared to other options - like even just taking Greater Specialization. Or using it to gain Weapon Trick: Dual Strike.
I am still struggling here. Is there a valid mechanics reason to go mantis sworn warpriest instead of sanctifided slayer inquisitor?
Warpriest bonus feats for TWF and weapon feats, Fervor buffing, Blessings... Sanctified Slayer is great, but it's hardly a wash, not least because of how much more trouble it is to go TWF. The Greater Invisibility and Death's Touch Blessings available to a mantisman are pretty crazy.
I'll probably throw some sample build together and compare them. You don't need that many feats to two-weapon fight effectively. It's not like it's archery.
Well, on an Inquisitor you would probably want to have TWF, Double Slice, Double Bane, ITWF, and likely Quick Draw as well. It's not really hard to do with Inquisitor, but a Warpriest can grab everything they need easily - inlcuding ITWF by level 6 - and still have free Weapon Focus and lots of feats for things like Accomplished Sneak Attacker or Weapon Specialization or whatever else.
Just a quick mock-up where i just try to squeeze in the general feats needed, also i go evangelist since i already go deific obedience and have a better skill-pool than Warpriest, losing out on lvl 20 cap and some saves.
Rulings in work:
Fractal BAB - 20point buy
Lv16 Human Warpriest 6/Evangelist 10 - Dual Talent
Str: 17 Dex: 17 Con: 14 Int: 10 Wis: 16 Cha: 10
(war1)lv1 Two-Weapon Fighting + (bonus) Weapon Focus Dagger
(war3)lv3 Deific Obedience - Pharasma + (bonus) Weapon Specialization Dagger
(war5)lv5 Double Slice
(war6)lv6 (bonus) Imp. Two-Weapon Fighting
(evan1)lv7 - Currently open
(evan3)lv9 Vital Strike
(evan4)lv10 (bonus) - Currently Open
(evan5)lv11 - Currently Open
(evan7)lv13 (bonus) Two-Weapon Rend - Currently Open
(evan9)lv15 Imp. Vital Strike
(evan10)lv16 (bonus) Weapon Trick: Dual Strike
So at lvl 16 you have the spiritual form of the Evangelist for most likely flight and some bonus stats, the 1 level delay after lvl 6 isnt that devestating it seems.
Edit: The attributes native 14-14-14-10-14-10 ( dual talent went into str and dex, attribute on level ups goes to Wis, dex str )...
Its not quite optimal i admit, but at least it have the requirements.
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I'll probably throw some sample build together and compare them. You don't need that many feats to two-weapon fight effectively. It's not like it's archery.Well, on an Inquisitor you would probably want to have TWF, Double Slice, Double Bane, ITWF, and likely Quick Draw as well. It's not really hard to do with Inquisitor, but a Warpriest can grab everything they need easily - inlcuding ITWF by level 6 - and still have free Weapon Focus and lots of feats for things like Accomplished Sneak Attacker or Weapon Specialization or whatever else.
Yeah, the bonus feats are nice, especiall\ly if you get the 1/6 of a combat feat every level for favored class bonus. If only I could get some decent skills with warpriest.
Yeah, the bonus feats are nice, especiall\ly if you get the 1/6 of a combat feat every level for favored class bonus. If only I could get some decent skills with warpriest.
Personally i did fix that with Evangelist prestige class, but you lose out on your favored class bonus
Natural Weapon Warpriest of Korada
Warpriest 10 / Urban Barbarian 2
Stats STR 10 / DEX 26 / CON 16 / INT 12 / WIS 18 / CHA 7
Traits Fate's Favored, ???
Blessings Community, Protection
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed StrikeRace Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Brb1 Weapon Finesse
CL2 Brb2 Animal Fury (If Tusked or Mother's Teeth isn't allowed)
CL3 Wrp1 Feral Combat Training (Bite), Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Draconic Blood, Double Slice
CL6 Wrp4
CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage
CL8 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Wrp7 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Fiend Totem
CL10 Wrp8
CL11 Wrp9 Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10• Furious Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
• Headband of Wisdom +4
• Belt of Dex +6
• Cloak of Resistance +3
• Celestial Armor
• Amulet of Natural Armor +1
• 2600gp remainingSacred Armor +1, Brawling
AC 26
Full Attack (Dex-Raging, Sacred Fist, Divine Power, Fight as One after first hit)
+28 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +30 Unarmed / +27 Bite / +27 Gore / +27 Claw / +27 Claw / +25 Unarmed / +25 Unarmed / +20 UnarmedAVG DPR 227.225 per round (standing still)
Now, this is all presuming that Fight As One counts you as your own Ally (it probably should, but... eh, if it doesn't, it's still a LOT of damage).
Feral Combat Training has some weird, awesome interactions with the WP.
FCT applies all bonuses that hit your Unarmed Strike to your Natural Attacks, meaning you only have to activate Sacred Armor+Weapon once and it all counts as one "weapon" accordingly, so you don't suck up ass-tons of Sacred Weapon rounds. You also bypass the issue of Brawling, because, again, FCT applies the +2 from Brawling to your Natural Weapons since they get all...
That's a sweet looking build, but I'm curious about the number of attacks. By my count, on a full attack you should have a gore, 2 claws, 5 unarmed strikes (2 iterative and 3 from twf chain), and a bit. What am I missing? You have 1 additional unarmed strikes. Also, which point-buy did you use?
Race Half-Orc
Class Warpriest
Deity Skymir (Trickster god of the storm giants)
Stats Str (16) Dex (15) Con (12) Int (10) Wis (14) Cha (7)
Combat to Hit
* To hit one attack +5 (+7 with divine fervor)
* To hit two weapon fighting +3 (+5 with divine fervor)
* To hit Ranged from Magic Blessing +3 (+5 with divine fervor)
Combat and Ranged Damage
* Damage 1d6 + 5 (+7 with divine fervor) (18-20 crit x2)
Saves
Fort (+4) (+5 with divine fervor)
Ref (+4) (+5 with divine fervor)
Will (+6) (+7 with divine fervor)
Armor Class
* AC 17
* Touch: 14
* Flat Footed: 13
Equipment
* Kukri (8gc, 1d6 damage, 18-20 x2)
* Cold Iron Kukri (16gc, 1d6 damage, 18-20 x2)
* Chain Shirt (100gc, +4 AC, Max 4 Dex AC, -2 AC Check Penalty)
* Cleric's Kit (16gc This includes a backpack, a bedroll, a belt pouch, candles (10), a cheap holy text, a flint and steel, an iron pot, a mess kit, rope, soap, a spell component pouch, torches (10), trail rations (5 days), a waterskin, and a wooden holy symbol.)
* 10gc
A warpriest can call upon the power of his blessings 4 times per day. Unless otherwise noted, using a blessing is a standard action.
Trickery
Double (minor): At 1st level, as a move action you can create an illusory double of yourself. This double functions as a single mirror image, and lasts for a number of rounds equal to your warpriest level, or until the illusory duplicate is dispelled or destroyed. You can have no more than one double at a time. The double created by this ability doesn't stack with the additional images from the mirror image spell.
Greater Invisibility (major): At 10th level, as a swift action you can become invisible for 1 round (as greater invisibility).
Magic Blessing
Hand of the Acolyte (minor): At 1st level, you can cause your melee weapon to fly from your grasp and strike an opponent, then instantly return to you. You can make a single attack using a melee weapon at a range of 30 feet. This attack is treated as a ranged attack with a thrown weapon, except that you add your Wisdom modifier to the attack roll instead of your Dexterity modifier (you still add your Strength modifier to the damage roll as normal). This ability cannot be used to perform a combat maneuver.
Blessed Magic (major): At 10th level, you can cast a prepared warpriest spell without expending its spell slot. The spell must have a casting time of 1 standard action and must use a spell slot that is at least 3 spell levels lower than the highest warpriest spell level you can cast. In addition, the spell must be one that damages a creature or causes a creature to take penalties (such as inflict light wounds or bane). For example, if you are 10th level and can cast 4th-level warpriest spells, you could use this blessing to cast a 1st-level warpriest spell without expending its spell slot.
Traits and Racial
* City Raised (+2 knowledge local tests)
* Intimidating (+2 intimidate)
* Dark Vision (60ft)
* Sacred Tattoos (+1 luck bonus on all saving throws)
* Fate's Favored (+1 to all luck bonuses)
* River Rat (+1 damage with daggers and swim checks)
Feats
* Weapon Focus (Kukri)
* Sacred Weapon (Kukri-1d6 damage)
* Two Weapon Fighting (+1 attack, -2 to hit)
Skills
* Profession (Scribe): 1 point, +6
* Intimidate: 1 point, +4
Lvl 0 Spells
* Read Magic (Read scrolls and spellbooks.)
* Guidance (Touched creature gains +1 on one attack roll, saving throw, or skill check)
* Detect Magic (Detects spells and magic items within 60 ft.)
Lvl 1 Spells Prepared 3 per day
* Divine Fervor (Standard Action: Calling upon the strength and wisdom of a deity, you gain a +1 luck bonus on attack and weapon damage rolls for every three caster levels you have (at least +1, maximum +3). The bonus doesn't apply to spell damage.)
- With Fate's Favored, it becomes +2 to attack and damage
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This warpriest build is one that I plan to use. It makes the most out of sacred weapon, by choosing Kukris as weapons. They are light 1d4 weapons with a great crit range. Sacred weapon boosts them up to 1d6, making them be on par with scimitars and rapiers. As light weapons, paired together they make the most out of two-weapon fighting and weapon focus. To further make the weapon a better choice, the trait 'river rat' gives +1 to damage when using daggers, which includes kukris.
The warpriest gets fate's favored and sacred tattoos for +2 to all saves. Fate's favored, coupled with divine fervor, gives the warpriest +2 to hit and +2 damage.
The god choice is Skymir, because that deity has the magic and trickery domains. Magic is great because it lets you use your magical daggers as a ranged attack. No ranged weapon will be doing as much damage for you as your daggers, especially once they get enchanted. Trickery is also great, because as a move action you can make a mirror image of yourself. If the enemy hits you, you have a 50% chance to dodge the damage. That is useful no matter what level you are. And as a move action you can still make a standard action to attack. Because his Con is so low, having this kind of protection is downright useful. Trickery is also great for when you hit level 10, because greater invisibility is a great spell to have. Magic at level 10 is decent as well, giving you a free spell for situations when the party has burnt through all of its resources.
Yes, he could be a human and get +1 skill point (very useful given how skill starved warpriests are) and a free feat. But I personally think that +2 to all saves, darkvision, and +2 intimidate make up for that. The intimidate allows for you to do *something* of use at early levels. Darkvision is always useful, and +2 to all saves is certainly worth a feat.
The level 0 spells are really just there to make up for the complete lack of skills that warpriests get, and for flavor. Profession (Scribe) is useful for getting both dark archive and grand lodge journal card boxes checked off. Read magic goes along with that. Detect magic plays off of that and is a useful skill to have. And guidance because the character can't do any skill checks himself. Instead, when someone else does a skill check, just go 'guidance' and give them a +1. This lets him still be of some minor use outside of combat.
Plans for building him up...
lvl 3 (bonus feat) Weapon Specialization (+2 damage)
lvl 3 (level feat) toughness (+3 HP)
lvl 4 (bonus stat) +1 Dex (Dex 16)
lvl 5 (level feat) Dodge (+1 AC)
lvl 5 (sacred wep) Daggers 1d8 damage
lvl 6 (bonus feat) improved critical (16-20 crit range)
So by level 6...he will be rocking (assuming +1 weapons/armor/ring and full attacking with divine fervor and bull's strength)
2 attacks at +14 to hit, doing 1d8 + 14 (16-20 crit) +1d6 (sacred weapon letting him choose among a number of weapon enchantments)
AC at least 23, move action for mirror image