Can someone tell me why the spell Mental block was a good idea?


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Mental block wrote:


School divination [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, mesmerist 1,
psychic 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You lock access to the target’s procedural memories, preventing
it from drawing upon its experience and expertise. The target
loses all skill ranks, spells known, spells prepared, and activated
feats, as well as its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like
abilities. Each round at the end of the target’s turn, the target
can attempt another Will save to end this effect.

Why in hell is this a spell and why does it do what Feeblemind to some or better points in a lower level spell slot?


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Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.


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HiddenBoss wrote:
Mental block wrote:


School divination [mind-affecting]; Level bard 2, mesmerist 1,
psychic 2
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V
Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)
Target one creature
Duration 1 round/level (D)
Saving Throw Will negates; Spell Resistance yes
You lock access to the target’s procedural memories, preventing
it from drawing upon its experience and expertise. The target
loses all skill ranks, spells known, spells prepared, and activated
feats, as well as its extraordinary, supernatural, and spell-like
abilities. Each round at the end of the target’s turn, the target
can attempt another Will save to end this effect.
Why in hell is this a spell and why does it do what Feeblemind to some or better points in a lower level spell slot?

Feeblemind is permanent. This gives a save each round. Really it is more comparable to the 2nd level spell Hold Person than Feeblemind as both can seriously screw you over temporarily, except Hold Person also lets people coup de grace you. Also note that it is a Will save, the good save for the kind of target that it screws over the most. Enemies that focus on kicking your shit in with weapons/natural attacks are much less bothered beyond not being able to use Power Attack.

So yeah, it looks like it would be a lot less awesome in practice than it does on paper.


Unless the person casting this has a really high DC, this is not going to be a useful spell to toss at any caster.

A smart caster never targets an enemy's strong save.


Scavion wrote:
Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.

it anti any thing. it can block a fighter Bravery (Ex),Armor Training (Ex), Weapon Training (Ex) It can block off a barbarian rage

hell i think it can stop a paladin Divine Health (Ex) if only for small number of rounds..

The spell kills class powers out right for mostly any class.


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HiddenBoss wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.

it anti any thing. it can block a fighter Bravery (Ex),Armor Training (Ex), Weapon Training (Ex) It can block off a barbarian rage

hell i think it can stop a paladin Divine Health (Ex) if only for small number of rounds..

The spell kills class powers out right for mostly any class.

So does Hold Person and it also lets you get your throat cut.


chaoseffect wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.

it anti any thing. it can block a fighter Bravery (Ex),Armor Training (Ex), Weapon Training (Ex) It can block off a barbarian rage

hell i think it can stop a paladin Divine Health (Ex) if only for small number of rounds..

The spell kills class powers out right for mostly any class.

So does Hold Person and it also lets you get your throat cut.

"Can work on non-humanoids" vs "allows Coup De Grace and stops running or full attacking" seems like a fair trade to me.

Actually, for Bards it is not only competing with Hold Person but with Suggestion as well. Yeah...not quite as good as Suggestion.

What is pretty cool though is that it isn't a charm or compulsion, or even an enchantment...for some insane reason. Suck it, Still Mind.


Could be used to decent effect in combination with Bestow Curse, or Mind Fog, or some other way to reduce will saves (ironically those all require their own will saves, but that's life).

Keep in mind, most arcane casters won't have a great wisdom score, so even though they have a 'good' will save it won't be amazing without investment. I can't count how many times my wizards have failed saves against fear and spent a fight running away.

Overall, the fact that it allows a save each round means it likely won't stick for more than a few, unless you're lucky. Not terrible, but not amazing.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

This really isn't any worse than Hideous Laughter.

Sovereign Court

This came up last night in a certain scenario... the Hellknight was no longer worthy to wear Hellknight Armor. Or power attack, two weapon fighting from ranger combat style, quick draw, favored enemy human, smite chaos, and a few other things. Considering he had prep time to find a chaotic human and start the combat adjacent it was a sizeable CC.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I had a reply ready to write down... but I've got this mental block.

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

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I can see it being annoying for the math. Recalculating numbers without features you take for granted.


Firebug wrote:
This came up last night in a certain scenario... the Hellknight was no longer worthy to wear Hellknight Armor. Or power attack, two weapon fighting from ranger combat style, quick draw, favored enemy human, smite chaos, and a few other things. Considering he had prep time to find a chaotic human and start the combat adjacent it was a sizeable CC.

Oooh Oooh...pick me pick me! I was me guys, I was the one that did this. Can anyone tell me what an activated feat is? To me it is anything that a player would have to state he is using, Two-Weapon Fighting/Power Attack/Deadly Aim. It would not apply to things like Iron Will, Skill Focus, Extra Traits.

What do you all think?


Peshmonster wrote:

Oooh Oooh...pick me pick me! I was me guys, I was the one that did this. Can anyone tell me what an activated feat is? To me it is anything that a player would have to state he is using, Two-Weapon Fighting/Power Attack/Deadly Aim. It would not apply to things like Iron Will, Skill Focus, Extra Traits.

What do you all think?

Agreed, it's feats that you choose to use. Note that Two-Weapon Fighting doesn't belong on that list, it's an always-on conditional feat that always activates when you full attack with two weapons.


Activated feats are things like PA, Cleave, Vital Strike,most style feats, and Spring attack.

Grand Lodge

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I don't care about the rest of it.

I want to know what the heck this is doing in divination school.

RPG Superstar 2012 Top 16

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Technically, you're finding and sealing away information.

It should actually be a divination/abjuration effect, since it's operating like a curse effect, but you aren't allowed to 2-school spells in PF, so they waved it as a gimme to Divination, which has very few offensive spells.

==Aelryinth


Ranger combat Style Feat is list under (EX) on the class page so it does fall in the mind block.

so if you got a feat from that then it lock up(i think but it giving you the feat so meh) but if you use a feat you get from levelling up then it safe as long it not Activated.

The fighter get off lucky here, Bonus Feats for him are not list by type.


in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.


Petty Alchemy wrote:
I can see it being annoying for the math. Recalculating numbers without features you take for granted.

This is where I could see the spell providing the largest problem. Rarely do character sheets have the space for, or do players take the time to note down, what every single +1 or +2 bonus they have to their attack/dmg/saves is and where that bonus came from.


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HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.

I'm chuckling at the imagery

"oh shit I forgot how to not die!"


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Honestly, this spell is as bad as Sacred Geometry, only now the work-load is on the GM rather than the player. I don't want to have to scan through the monster's/NPC's statblock for everything this will affect and recalculate it mid-combat. No, just no, banned at my table.


HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.

Dear god, I didn't even think about that. What the utter crap, Paizo? How does a second level spell shutting down demi-god immortality make ANY @#*&ing sense?!?


What does it mean Lose Spells Known. Does this mean you get to reselect them? I mean you lose all those spells but you are allowed to know those spells via your own spells section.

Scarab Sages

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To be fair, if a Tier 10 Immortal mythic character can't make the save against as second (or first) level spell, they freaking deserve to die.


Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Cerberus Seven wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.
Dear god, I didn't even think about that. What the utter crap, Paizo? How does a second level spell shutting down demi-god immortality make ANY @#*&ing sense?!?

Mmm, I guess that depends on whether you view the ability as activating upon their demise, or activating 24 hours later...when the spell has certainly run out by, since it's only one round per level.


Imbicatus wrote:
To be fair, if a Tier 10 Immortal mythic character can't make the save against as second (or first) level spell, they freaking deserve to die.

I can just see it now...

After a long fight, the mesmerist is down to a few spells. He thinks, what the hell? So he casts this...

The GM is all, that is never gonna work lol

*Roll*

Nat 1.....

Gm Is all.... i hate you...


Luthorne wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.
Dear god, I didn't even think about that. What the utter crap, Paizo? How does a second level spell shutting down demi-god immortality make ANY @#*&ing sense?!?
Mmm, I guess that depends on whether you view the ability as activating upon their demise, or activating 24 hours later...when the spell has certainly run out by, since it's only one round per level.

The wording of the ability makes it pretty clear that it triggers the respawn timer when you die. If you are killed and you have this mythic ability, you come back the next day. If you are killed and you don't have the ability, then you're already dead when the spell wears off and you can't, so far as the rules are concerned and to my knowledge, be killed while dead. Unless Paizo subscribes to the Iraqi method of thinking, of course.

And Imbicatus, Persistent/Heighten Spell is a thing. Just saying.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Luthorne wrote:
Cerberus Seven wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:

in the name of [add pathfinder god here you like]... the spell can block Mythic powers as well.

sure unlikely to come up but it sure of a hell of a way to by pass
Immortal (Su) tier 10

Immortal (Su) wrote:
At 9th tier, if you are killed, you return to life 24 hours later, regardless of the condition of your body or the means by which you were killed. When you return to life, you aren't treated as if you had rested, and don't regain the use of abilities that recharge with rest until you next rest. This ability doesn't apply if you're killed by a coup de grace or critical hit performed by either a mythic creature (or creature of even greater power) or a non-mythic creature wielding a weapon capable of bypassing epic damage reduction. At 10th tier, you can be killed only by a coup de grace or critical hit made with an artifact.
Dear god, I didn't even think about that. What the utter crap, Paizo? How does a second level spell shutting down demi-god immortality make ANY @#*&ing sense?!?
Mmm, I guess that depends on whether you view the ability as activating upon their demise, or activating 24 hours later...when the spell has certainly run out by, since it's only one round per level.

The wording of the ability makes it pretty clear that it triggers the respawn timer when you die. If you are killed and you have this mythic ability, you come back the next day. If you are killed and you don't have the ability, then you're already dead when the spell wears off and you can't, so far as the rules are concerned and to my knowledge, be killed while dead. Unless Paizo subscribes to the Iraqi method of thinking, of course.

And Imbicatus, Persistent/Heighten Spell is a thing. Just saying.

Or duplicating it with Wish/Miracle.


Imbicatus wrote:
To be fair, if a Tier 10 Immortal mythic character can't make the save against as second (or first) level spell, they freaking deserve to die.

This spell is probably worth using Heighten on, to be honest. It's pretty damn good.

Scarab Sages

Cerberus Seven wrote:


And Imbicatus, Persistent/Heighten Spell is a thing. Just saying.

Well, persistent is broken, and if you heighten, it's not really a first level spell anymore, is it?

Sovereign Court

I agree this would be annoying due to the math of it.

I like the "bard 2" entry though... :)

Liberty's Edge

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Squirrel_Dude wrote:
Petty Alchemy wrote:
I can see it being annoying for the math. Recalculating numbers without features you take for granted.
This is where I could see the spell providing the largest problem. Rarely do character sheets have the space for, or do players take the time to note down, what every single +1 or +2 bonus they have to their attack/dmg/saves is and where that bonus came from.

But that's the thing, the spell doesn't effect Weapon Focus, Iron Will, Two-Weapon Fighting or any other 'always on' Feats. Only 'activated' ones.

So unless you've forgotten what your bonuses are when not Power attacking, no recalculation is necessary. You just can't use any optional Feats.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Except you have to figure out what bonuses are from other things. It's not the feats you have to recalculate. It's the (Ex) and (Su).


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So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.


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I'd tell ya why it was a good idea, but I can't seem to remember anything, give me a moment...


I'd say it's poorly edited, rather than poorly conceived. It seems pretty clear the intent is to work only on abilities that require some sort of conscious action but the game makes that fairly hard to word properly. This is . . . obviously not a good solution, which makes sure that you can confuse a troll into not regenerating.


Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.

[mind-affecting]. Sorry.


Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.

Good catch I was just listing something silly that this could overcome.


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Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.

Threnodic Spell.


Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.

Mesmerist with Psychic Inception has. . . a really bad chance to pull it off, and I believe there's a Bard archetype that can use mind-affecting spells on Undead.


Cerberus Seven wrote:
Anzyr wrote:
Lord Van Hohenheim wrote:
So a level 2 Bard spell can perma kill a Lich without the whole hassle of hunting down the Lich's phylactery. Need to be sure to pick this up.
[mind-affecting]. Sorry.
Threnodic Spell.

I don't know how I forgot that given Heaven Oracle shenanigans. That's pretty awesome against Liches then. Hilarious to.


Ok now I know what my party mate used. He used a spell on an undead recently so I forgot about the mind-affecting rules


Ha, that's pretty great if you can get the spell to work. Though it can be fixed with a dispel magic.

Though re-reading, I'd rule it's supposed to be turn off activated (Ex) and (Su) abilities.

So the red dragon forgets how to breath fire, but doesn't stop being fire immune.


Zhangar wrote:

Ha, that's pretty great if you can get the spell to work. Though it can be fixed with a dispel magic.

Though re-reading, I'd rule it's supposed to be turn off activated (Ex) and (Su) abilities.

So the red dragon forgets how to breath fire, but doesn't stop being fire immune.

Yeah, I think its pretty clear that this is RAI

"activated feats, as well as [activated] EX and SU abilities. . ."

as compared to "activated feats, as well as [all including static] EX and SU abilities".

Sovereign Court

If it was worded "activated feats, Ex and SU abilities" then I'd agree with you Nathanael. However, using the "as well as" breaks it up and puts it in a completely different section IMO. All EX, SU, SP abilities, not just "active ones".

Which is interesting, right? Pyschic using Will of the Dead phrenic amp to Mental Block a Shadow from doing Strength damage on its attacks? Why not?

Remove Sunlight Powerlessness from a Wraith because it forgot? Most diseases/curses/poisons because they are EX/SU, just don't happen? A Burning Skeleton forgets to Explode? A Druid's Animal Companion... is no longer a companion? Does the T-rex now attack the party because its master is a little forgetful? That tumor familiar? Just a Tumor now...

And some of this showing up at level 1 (Mesmerist)? Seriously? And legal for PFS?

Maybe we should have had a playtest or something... (just kidding, I liked the playtest)

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder PF Special Edition, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
HiddenBoss wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.

it anti any thing. it can block a fighter Bravery (Ex),Armor Training (Ex), Weapon Training (Ex) It can block off a barbarian rage

hell i think it can stop a paladin Divine Health (Ex) if only for small number of rounds..

The spell kills class powers out right for mostly any class.

The only one you're right about is barbarian rage, and even that one is questionable. None of the other abilities or qualities you listed, are "activated", so they are not effected by this spell.

Sovereign Court

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LazarX wrote:
HiddenBoss wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Anything Anti-mage is fantastic in my book.

it anti any thing. it can block a fighter Bravery (Ex),Armor Training (Ex), Weapon Training (Ex) It can block off a barbarian rage

hell i think it can stop a paladin Divine Health (Ex) if only for small number of rounds..

The spell kills class powers out right for mostly any class.

The only one you're right about is barbarian rage, and even that one is questionable. None of the other abilities or qualities you listed, are "activated", so they are not effected by this spell.

Perhaps you want to reread the spell. Pretty clear any EX, SU, or SP ability is affected.


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No, it's clear that it shuts off everything. I mean, you forget how to climb and jump under this spell's effect.

Sovereign Court

Also, somewhat random... Eternal Potion: Mental Block. What happens?

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