Luthier's Rapier Pricing Error


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Silver Crusade

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ARGH! wrote:
The Fox speaks reason

Nonsense!

Walter speaks reason. And he's psychic!

Shadow Lodge 5/5 5/5 Regional Venture-Coordinator, Northwest aka WalterGM

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This guy gets it ;)

3/5 5/5

It still looks like a pretty good item at that price.

5/5 5/5

But can I buy a ǝɔuɐʇsısǝɹ ɟo ʞɐoןɔ +3 for 000'6 gold?


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

I'm still trying to figure out how to build this thing.

It's a +1 holy rapier with a large ruby (which has its own magical powers) imbedded in the hilt. It's also got some gold filigree in the hilt.

Step 1: forget the magic. A masterwork rapier with those embellishments would cost at least 5,320 GP (I don't know yet what to add for the gold).
Step 2: make it +1 and holy. That adds 18,000 GP.
Step 3: add in the +4 to charisma once per day. If it were always active when the weapon is held, that would be, I think, another 16,000 GP. It's limited, so something less than that.
Step 4: add in the +4 to morale bonus to saves against fear. Again, if it were always active, that would be another 32,000 GP (these figures from Table 15-29 in the CRB), but it's limited.
Step 5: add in the shatter ability. No idea what that should cost.

Even if you reduce the costs in steps 3 and 4 by 90% (on what basis?) that's another 4800 GP, so we're up to at least 28,120 GP. Now if the devs say the price is 25,020 and I should STFU, I'll STFU — but like Galileo, I'll still be muttering "Si, il mouve" under my breath. Unless somebody can show me where my calculations are wrong. :-)

Note that I'm really more interested in the mechanics of making this kind of thing than I am in this specific weapon.

Grand Lodge

I think the shatter ability would actually reduce the cost of the Holy ability (in addition to adding to the total cost) since it also takes away that ability. But this is why pricing and balancing are so hard to do.


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Ed Reppert wrote:

I'm still trying to figure out how to build this thing.

It's a +1 holy rapier with a large ruby (which has its own magical powers) imbedded in the hilt. It's also got some gold filigree in the hilt.

Step 1: forget the magic. A masterwork rapier with those embellishments would cost at least 5,320 GP (I don't know yet what to add for the gold).
Step 2: make it +1 and holy. That adds 18,000 GP.
Step 3: add in the +4 to charisma once per day. If it were always active when the weapon is held, that would be, I think, another 16,000 GP. It's limited, so something less than that.
Step 4: add in the +4 to morale bonus to saves against fear. Again, if it were always active, that would be another 32,000 GP (these figures from Table 15-29 in the CRB), but it's limited.
Step 5: add in the shatter ability. No idea what that should cost.

Even if you reduce the costs in steps 3 and 4 by 90% (on what basis?) that's another 4800 GP, so we're up to at least 28,120 GP. Now if the devs say the price is 25,020 and I should STFU, I'll STFU — but like Galileo, I'll still be muttering "Si, il mouve" under my breath. Unless somebody can show me where my calculations are wrong. :-)

Note that I'm really more interested in the mechanics of making this kind of thing than I am in this specific weapon.

That's why the magic creation rules are just guidelines. They get you into a ballpark figure but you still have to make adjustments based upon actual mechanics (ring of true strike) and other magic items to balance the price vs ability. A lot of named items have a fudge factor for abilities that can not be directly tied to a spell effect. There is no mechanic for determining the cost of that you just have to assign a reasonable value. This is why magic creation and adding additional abilities on named items is banned in PFS.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition, Starfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber
Lab_Rat wrote:
That's why the magic creation rules are just guidelines. They get you into a ballpark figure but you still have to make adjustments based upon actual mechanics (ring of true strike) and other magic items to balance the price vs ability. A lot of named items have a fudge factor for abilities that can not be directly tied to a spell effect. There is no mechanic for determining the cost of that you just have to assign a reasonable value. This is why magic creation and adding additional abilities on named items is banned in PFS.

Hm. Okay, fair enough. If I were designing this part of the game, I'd have started with the assumption that no magic item, with the exception of artifacts, can have abilities that would preclude a crafter from making that item, but that's just me. Well, me and the developers of HârnMaster. :-)

5/5 5/55/55/5

What the magic item pricing guidelines leave out is that self only spells can be more powerful than cast on someone else spells, both because of the delayed action economy and that barbarians tend to get a lot more out of a +20 to hit than most wizards.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

John Compton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

You can't even call it abuse, because you don't have a choice.

You either buy it at it's current price, or you don't buy it.

That's it.

Those are the only choices you have.

I prefer choice D: Developer rules on the matter and updates the Additional Resources file for the next time we update the Additional Resources page. The updated price will be 25,020 gp, at which point a PC will need to sell back the rapier at its full market cost (or the cost of a +1 rapier, assuming they detonated the gem) and can buy the sword back at its new cost (Fame and gp permitting).

Did this ever get updated?

Paizo Employee 5/5 Developer

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Jared Thaler wrote:
John Compton wrote:
blackbloodtroll wrote:

You can't even call it abuse, because you don't have a choice.

You either buy it at it's current price, or you don't buy it.

That's it.

Those are the only choices you have.

I prefer choice D: Developer rules on the matter and updates the Additional Resources file for the next time we update the Additional Resources page. The updated price will be 25,020 gp, at which point a PC will need to sell back the rapier at its full market cost (or the cost of a +1 rapier, assuming they detonated the gem) and can buy the sword back at its new cost (Fame and gp permitting).
Did this ever get updated?

It did, though in looking at the Additional Resources page right now it's not showing up. We've had several other elements reverting to a past state recently (e.g. the constable archetype), and this is one that I can see is in the source document but is not showing up properly. The correct price is 25,020 gp, and it is supposed to be listed in the Second Darkness Player Companion entry.

Grand Lodge 4/5 Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento aka FLite

Thanks for checking. I thought it had been fixed, and then someone told me it wasn't.

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