Just as the title implies. The Kinetic Chirurgeons (KG) replaces Infusions with this ability...
A kinetic chirurgeon must select either aether or water as her primary element. She gains kinetic healer as a bonus wild talent at 1st level. At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the kinetic chirurgeon can select any one paladin mercy that a paladin of that level could select. Each time she uses kinetic healer, she can apply one of these mercies to the target of the healing. A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions. This ability replaces infusions.
Does that mean Infusions are completely off the table for a KG? Or would they be able to select an Infusion by using the Extra Wild Talent feat? I am inclined to say that that ability would completely remove Infusions from the table, but... perhaps there is something I'm unaware of that has been dealt with prior to during the playtest.
Any rulings that you guys are aware of would be greatly appreciated! Or even just incites from folks who were heavily involved in the Occult Playtest.
I'm also reading it as infusions are off the table. It'd be like a fighter swapping Weapon Training due to an archetype and not benefitting from a feat that'll allow him to pick another weapon group for Weapon Training.
Just as the title implies. The Kinetic Chirurgeons (KG) replaces Infusions with this ability...
A kinetic chirurgeon must select either aether or water as her primary element. She gains kinetic healer as a bonus wild talent at 1st level. At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the kinetic chirurgeon can select any one paladin mercy that a paladin of that level could select. Each time she uses kinetic healer, she can apply one of these mercies to the target of the healing. A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions. This ability replaces infusions.Does that mean Infusions are completely off the table for a KG? Or would they be able to select an Infusion by using the Extra Wild Talent feat? I am inclined to say that that ability would completely remove Infusions from the table, but... perhaps there is something I'm unaware of that has been dealt with prior to during the playtest.
Any rulings that you guys are aware of would be greatly appreciated! Or even just incites from folks who were heavily involved in the Occult Playtest.
From the wiki dictionary
nev·er
ˈnevər
adverbat no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
Never means exactly that. A Kinetic chirugeon is essentially a Healer.
You can still use simple and composite blasts, along with water having some of the best utility WTs in the class. I agree with you that infusions are off the table.
Just as the title implies. The Kinetic Chirurgeons (KG) replaces Infusions with this ability...
A kinetic chirurgeon must select either aether or water as her primary element. She gains kinetic healer as a bonus wild talent at 1st level. At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the kinetic chirurgeon can select any one paladin mercy that a paladin of that level could select. Each time she uses kinetic healer, she can apply one of these mercies to the target of the healing. A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions. This ability replaces infusions.Does that mean Infusions are completely off the table for a KG? Or would they be able to select an Infusion by using the Extra Wild Talent feat? I am inclined to say that that ability would completely remove Infusions from the table, but... perhaps there is something I'm unaware of that has been dealt with prior to during the playtest.
Any rulings that you guys are aware of would be greatly appreciated! Or even just incites from folks who were heavily involved in the Occult Playtest.
From the wiki dictionary
nev·er
ˈnevər
adverbat no time in the past or future; on no occasion; not ever.
Never means exactly that. A Kinetic chirugeon is essentially a Healer.
Hmmmm... I definitely had selective reading apparently. Somehow I completely missed that sentence. This is what I get for trying to comprehend things on 4 hours of sleep and a very busy work day. Disregard any further need for clarification.
To be fair... even if you technically could gain the infusion, you wouldn't be able to ever use it. :D
To be fair... even if you technically could gain the infusion, you wouldn't be able to ever use it. :DSorry to NECRO this thread, but this was really pertinent to something I was researching.
Let's say you have a Kinetic Chirurgeon based off Aether; with Basic Telekinesis, it doesn't appear that you need to be able to use something like Extended Range Infusion, just have it, to get the longer range and faster movement...
...If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, You can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round...So even if it's legal by RAW, it feels a little weird RAI to be learning and benefiting from a distance-increasing infusion that you have never, and will never use.
Would this be a tiny corner-case where a Kinetic Chirurgeon could benefit from learning an infusion?
A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions.
A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions.In reference to the comment I quoted, could a Kinetic Chirurgeon "gain" an infusion?
Even if they did they still couldn't use it. So what's the point.
Even if they did they still couldn't use it. So what's the point.A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions.In reference to the comment I quoted, could a Kinetic Chirurgeon "gain" an infusion?The point that I was making was that an Aether Kinetic Chirurgeon with Basic Telekinesis would get improved range and speed with that wild talent if they "possessed" the Extended Range Infusion.
Did you not read what I typed in my first post?
I understand what your saying. So please don't question if i read your question.
" If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round."
This section of Basic Telekinesis only changes how Extended Range functions. Since normally it only works with Kinetic Blasts.
If you are increasing the range of Basic Telekinesis using Extended Range you are using an Infusion. Which you can't use if you go Kinetic Chirurgeon.
To be fair... even if you technically could gain the infusion, you wouldn't be able to ever use it. :DSorry to NECRO this thread, but this was really pertinent to something I was researching.
Let's say you have a Kinetic Chirurgeon based off Aether; with Basic Telekinesis, it doesn't appear that you need to be able to use something like Extended Range Infusion, just have it, to get the longer range and faster movement...
...If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, You can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round...So even if it's legal by RAW, it feels a little weird RAI to be learning and benefiting from a distance-increasing infusion that you have never, and will never use.
Would this be a tiny corner-case where a Kinetic Chirurgeon could benefit from learning an infusion?
It would seem so. I believe that the wording here actually seems to support that reading. Not being able to use an infusion is not the same thing as not being able to learn that whatsoever, and the benefit is a benefit to utility.
So, all told, seems legit. I can't see any words that remove that possibility and it's probably an accidental, but kinda important interaction.
To be fair... even if you technically could gain the infusion, you wouldn't be able to ever use it. :DSorry to NECRO this thread, but this was really pertinent to something I was researching.
Let's say you have a Kinetic Chirurgeon based off Aether; with Basic Telekinesis, it doesn't appear that you need to be able to use something like Extended Range Infusion, just have it, to get the longer range and faster movement...
...If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round, and if you possess the extreme range wild talent, You can increase the range of basic telekinesis to long range and increase the rate of movement to 60 feet per round...So even if it's legal by RAW, it feels a little weird RAI to be learning and benefiting from a distance-increasing infusion that you have never, and will never use.
Would this be a tiny corner-case where a Kinetic Chirurgeon could benefit from learning an infusion?
It would seem so. I believe that the wording here actually seems to support that reading. Not being able to use an infusion is not the same thing as not being able to learn that whatsoever, and the benefit is a benefit to utility.
So, all told, seems legit. I can't see any words that remove that possibility and it's probably an accidental, but kinda important interaction.
A Kinetic Chirurgeon can't use Infusions.
Using Extended Range or Extreme Range on Basic Telekinesis is using an Infusion.
@Brain in a Jar:
I'm sorry, I shouldn't have said the "reading" thing, that was petty.
Personally I think this is one of those things that probably gets caught up in designer intent and dictionary-definitions.
I would argue that the line from Kinetic Chirurgery
A kinetic chirurgeon can never use infusions.doesn't preclude them from the "possession" of an infusion the Basic Telekinsis talent requires for added benefits.
I think it comes down to whether its Extended Ranged modifying Basic Telekinesis (nope, can't use Infusions), or Basic Telekinesis sublimating possession of a couple of infusions.
It's cool.
The reason this doesn't work is because Basic Telekinesis is only allowing the use of Extended Range and Extreme Range. Just having them is not enough. Normally they only function on Kinetic Blasts.
Using Basic Telekinesis + Extended Range still follows the normal rules for Infusions. You still need to apply it and pay the Burn.
A Kinetic Chirurgeon flat out can't use Infusions.
Using Extended Range or Extreme Range on Basic Telekinesis is using an Infusion.
Using an Infusion has a burn cost unless otherwise noted in its description.
What is the burn cost of using Extended or Extreme Range on Basic Telekinesis?
Source Occult Adventures pg. 19 (Amazon)
Element universal; Type form infusion; Level 1; Burn 1
Associated Blasts any
Saving Throw none
Your kinetic blast can strike any target within 120 feet.
That is the normal Extended Range. It costs 1 Burn and only works on Kinetic Blasts.
If you possess the extended range wild talent, you can increase the range of basic telekinesis to medium range and increase the rate of movement to 30 feet per round,.."
It doesn't apply it for free, just allows its use with Basic Telekinesis.
It doesn't apply it for free, just allows its use with Basic Telekinesis.
Incorrect. You never use any infusions. This in an inherant propriety found under the text for Basic Telekinesis.
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It doesn't apply it for free, just allows its use with Basic Telekinesis.Incorrect. You never use any infusions. This in an inherent propriety found under the text for Basic Telekinesis.
Agreed. The additional text for basic telekinesis does not state that it is using extended range, simply that possessing the extended range form infusion proves the following benefit.
Really, 'use' is a needlessly vague term in this text. For things like Elemental Ascetic, it uses the more clear terminology of 'must apply' for kinetic fist, where this could be more clearly said as 'cannot apply an infusion to their blast.'