GM opted against my Wings of Air idea, but after some discussion of where precisely I wanted to go with the character, we came up with a hybrid archetype. I thought I'd share since I'm even more excited about this than my Telekineticist! :D
If this seems at all over-powered, please help me balance it some. I'm pretty sure we stripped away enough of the initial power to make it work in a balanced way, but I'm not an expert. After all, I haven't really made a character in years and have been playing a Sylph Air Wizard almost excusively (with some spurts of the testplaying of the Kineticist of course).
The following racial archetype is available to sylphs.
While most kineticist concentrate on their psychic control of their element(s), an aetherialist spends less effort on expanding their power, and more on doing what capricious, secretive sylphs do; being sneaky and curious. Thus, having a limited access to kinetic elements, they spend a portion of their time practicing getting in and out of trouble. An aetherialist has the following class features.Class Skills: An aetherialist loses the Intimidate and Heal skills, and gains Sleight of Hand, Disable Device and Fly to his list of class skills.
Airy Step: The Airy Step feat that sylphs can gain can be used as a prerequisite to the Wings of Air Wild Talent. If the sylph has this feat, he is considered to meet the prerequisites for that talent, although he must still have Air as an elemental focus to take this Wild Talent as well as meet any level requirements.
Elemental Focus (Su): At 1st level an aetherialist must choose either air or aether as his element of focus. This choice does not affect the list of additional class skills, but in all other respects works as the class feature.
Burn (Ex): Aetherialists can accept two fewer burn than a kineticist, having a maximum burn of 1 + her Constitution modifier. Otherwise Burn works the same as the class feature.
Trapfinding: An aetherialist adds 1/3 her level to Perception skill checks made to detect traps and to Disable Device skill checks (minimum +1). An aetherialist can use Disable Device to disarm magic traps. This replaces the Gather Power class feature.
Extended Range: An aetherialist automatically gains the Extended Range infusion at 1st level. This is the only infusion the aetherialist gains, and she may not gain other infusions even from feats. This replaces the infusion gained at 1st level.
Evasion (Ex): As the rogue feature of the same name. This replaces the infusion gained at 3rd level.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the rogue feature of the same name. This replaces the infusion gained at 5th level.
Soft Burn (Ex): At 5th level, once per day, or until burn is removed, an aetherialist reduces the burn cost of her original element's defense by 1. This replaces the Internal Buffer class feature.
Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the rogue feature of the same name. This replaces the infusion gained at 5th level.
Expanded Element (Su): When selecting an expanded element, an aetherialist is limited to either aether or air. If she chooses the element that she does not currently have focus on, she gains the elemental defense of that element instead of any composite blast. She does not gain any composite blasts. Otherwise this feature works the same as the class feature with the exception that she can not gain an infusion for choosing the same element.
Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): As the rogue class feature, but the aetherialist uses her aetherialist levels to determine her rogue level, with a -2 penalty. Thus, as a 9th level aetherialist, she would be treated as a 7th level rogue for purpose of this feature. This replaces the 9th level infusion class feature.
Rogue Talents: As the rogue feature, but can only learn new talents at levels 11, 13, 17 and 19. This replaces the 11th and 13th level infusion and Supercharge class features.
Advanced Rogue Talents: As the rogue feature, Advanced Talents, but can only replace Rogue Talents gained at levels 17 or 19. This replaces the level 17 and 19 infusion class feature.
Fey Talent: At 20th level, the aetherialist can accept 1 point of burn to use any Rogue Talent or rogue Advanced Talent which she does not have. This effect lasts for a maximum of 2 rounds. By accepting 2 burn, she may use the talent until her burn is removed. This replaces the Omnikinesis class feature.
How about including a proviso stating that Rogue Talents and Advanced Rogue Talents that add extra effects to Sneak Attack grant those effects if used with your elemental blast, as long as the target is flat-footed or denied his Dexterity bonus (within 30 ft), as your blast is essentially a free Sneak Attack with no conditions.
I like it, thanks. :) Will include text for that in a followup version of the Archetype.
Had hoped for a bit more critiqueing or affirmation on this. :(
However, the rogue character (actually an Archeologist) seems to think the Rogue Talents shouldn't be on the list, and is recommending changes. He thinks 11th level should extend the range to Extreme with the infusion, and nothing at levels 13, 17 and 19. I like the idea of Extreme Range (makes my TK Haul faster), but don't think the talents are an issue, especially at those levels. :/
I think the Talents are ok at those levels, and "For the purpose of Basic Telekinesis (which would include Haul), you are treated as having the Extreme Range infusion" would be a better replacement for Supercharge. :P
You're wanting to play this with a Rogue in the party? Does he fell like it steps all over his toes multiple times?
You should definitely be getting something every level, even if it's just a +1 to something else. If his reasoning is that Extreme Range is super powerful, he should note that a regular Kineticist can pick it up at any point she qualifies for it and still pick up other Infusions afterward. What you're doing here is trading Infusions for Rogue Talents, a weaker class feature to be using with the Kineticist. And with no guarantee you'll ever reach the levels you would gain them at.
I don't think it's a toe-stepping thing, I think he sees those as his "power". When I told him that it was the equivalent of his Bard getting Wizard spells (their "power"), he retracted a bit but my concern wasn't how we'd interact (we're brothers in all but blood), but if he had a point that I was missing.
I don't want to generate an archetype more powerful than the original, and to be honest, don't know the Talents as well as I should before adding them to such an Archetype (threw them in to make the infusion loss seem less so). So, was more pointing out that they got Talents in hopes that maybe someone would look at it and say "Hey, that would make things a bit unbalanced if they got <insert Talent> with their <insert Kineticist feature>!"
My current review of Talents says it's balanced, but I'm also not the best optimizer on the forums... (not even in the top 90% probably).
Any Talents that modify Sneak Attack damage will only work once per round with this character if it's modifying your Blast as if it were a Sneak Attack once per round, whereas the Rogue had the potential to throw all those dice multiple times per round. If you decide to go into melee and use a Form that grants melee attacks (Kinetic Blade, Fists, or Whip), then you're still subject to the same Sneak Attack restrictions with those talents. However, you can still get all your damage dice off at-will with no restrictions once per round with a ranged blast.
Make any sense?
Now if you go with the utility Talents instead of ones that modify Sneak Attack, check to see which talents he has instead and try to figure out which ones you can pick up at 11+ that may compliment them. That may placate your Rogue buddy.
We did a bit of a test run (using a level 12 character), and the Con+1 in place of Con+3 for burn max was too low. Sylphs are already punished enough with a low Con, and having removed stuff like Gather Power, Buffer and Supercharge from the Archetype, it was too much. We've removed that rule (So back to Con+3 max), and added Extreme Range (only for calculating range/speed of TK) to level 11 in place of Supercharge. So far, we've also kept the Talents (I took Fast Stealth as my 11th level Talent).
So anyone can check for mistakes...
My 12th level character:
OF note: Touchsight was a requisite from GM if I want no negative modifiers on ranged Disables. :/
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Attributes (with OverFlow)
Str: 8 (10), Con: 20(24), Dex: 22(24), Int: 16, Wis: 10, Cha: 11
AC: 24(25) [FlatFoot: 24(25), Touch: 16(17)]
Rflx: +18(19), Fort: +18(19), Will: +10
HP: 147 / NonLethal: 60 / TmpHP: 36 (3 Burn)
CMB: 7(8)[16], CMD: 24(25), Init: +8(+9)
Skills (with Overflow)[Wild Talent]
Acrobatics: +25(26), Disable Device: +31(32), Escape Artist: +31(32), Fly: +35(36), Perception: +30, Sleight of Hand: +30(31), Stealth: +46(47)[67], Use Magic Device: +15.
Feats: Toughness, Stealthy, Acrobatic, Deft Hands, Extra Wild Talent, Skill Focus (Perception)
Traits: Adopted/Elven Reflexes, Vagabond Child (Escape Artist), Breeze Kissed, Whispering Wind
Magic Items: +4 Belt of Physical Prowess (Dex, Con), +4 Cloak of Resistance, +4 Headband of Vast Knowledge (Perception, Stealth), +4 Shadow Mithral Chainmail Shirt, Vest of Escape, Gloves of Larceny, Hat of Disguise, Arrowmaster's Bracers.
Wild Talents (Burn Max: 10, 5 = Morning Defenses)
Defenses: Force Ward (36 Tmp), Enveloping Winds (Level 12: 30%, 2 Burn: 10% = 40%)
Kinetic Blasts: Electric Blast (+18[touch]/6d6+10), Telekinetic Blast (+18[AC]/6D6+19) [1 Burn = 9D6, 2 Burn = 46(Touch) or 55(AC), 3 Burn = 64(Touch) or 73(AC)]
Infusions: Extended Range (Extreme Range for TK)
Utility: Basic Aerokinesis, Basic Telekinesis, Aether Invisibility (renamed because Telekinetic Invisibility makes no sense), Air Cushion, Kinetic Healer, Touchsight, TK Finesse, TK Haul, Wings of Air.
Other: Uncanny Dodge, Evasion, Improved Uncanny Dodge, Fast Stealth
1st Level) Telekinetic Blast, Extended Range, Toughness, Trapfinding
2nd Level) TK Finesse, Force Ward
3rd Level) Deft Hands, Evasion, +2 Con/Dex, +1 Attack/+2Damage, TmpHP (1Burn)
4th Level) TK Haul, +1 Dex
5th Level) Stealthy, Free Extended Range, 1 Burn = Empower, Uncanny Dodge, Soft Burn
6th Level) Self Telekinesis, +2 Attack/+4 Damage, 1 Buffer, TmpHP (2 Burn)
7th Level) Extra Wild Talent, Kinetic Healer, Aerokineticist (Electric blast), Enveloping Winds (25%)
8th Level) Aether Invisibility, +1 Dex
9th Level) Acrobatic, Improved Uncanny Dodge, 2 Burn = Maximize, +3 Attack/+6 Damage, TmpHP (3 Burn)
10th Level) Air's Cushion
11th Level) Exchange Self-TK for Wings of Air, Fast Stealth, +4Con/+2Dex, 2 Buffer, +10% Enveloping Winds/2 Burn)
12th Level) Touchsight, +1 Str, +4 Attack/+8 Damage +5% Enveloping Winds
Can you repost your archetype with the updates? From going back through the posts, you shouldn't be getting any Internal Buffer, unless that's changed back.
What level are you planning on running this character to? Because as it is, you won't ever have enough Con for max Overflow, and probably won't have enough to reach the next max. Sylphs get a penalty to Con that precludes them from max Overflow anyway (2 points short with everything going toward it). Otherwise, looks really good.
You may want to consider Air's Reach. Kaboom from afar.
You may want to rewrite Infusion Specialization as well, since Extended Range is your only Infusion and it becomes free rather early. I didn't catch that the first time. Maybe to something like,
Utility Specialization (Su): At 8th level, once per day, you can reduce the burn cost of any one Utility Wild Talent by 1 point of burn. At 11th level and every 3 levels thereafter you gain an additional +1 daily use of this ability. These additional daily uses may be used at the same time to reduce the burn cost of a Utility Wild Talent by more than 1 point of burn, to a minimum of 0. This replaces Infusion Specialization at 8th, 11th, 14th, 17th, and 20th levels.
Right you are, there is not suppose to be an Internal Buffer on my sheet, that was me failing to edit it out from a HeroLab conversion. :/
I like the Utility Specialisation, and had something like that originally, but the only non-infusion Talent I had which could burn, was the mega-Haul. I kept Infusion Specialisation because I had mis-read the rules and thought it helped with Empower/Maximize, but now that I know that's not so, I should remove it and just write the "free" into the Extended Range upon reaching level 5. So, the Utility Specialisation sounds really good.
As for the level, no idea, that's a GM thing. He wanted to see how it measured at a higher level but it was a solo game, so we're not testing it very well. He's given the go ahead on the archetype, so no real need to test, will be back to level 6 for next game.
I'll write up the class more professionally and post a pdf of it on this thread sometime tomorrow. :) I do appreciate your input greatly.
Oh, as for Air's Reach, my character doesn't have any ranged air talents nor composite blasts, That means the only real use is for Electric Blast... but more importantly... don't really have a spare Utility until 14th level, unless I sacrificed one of my skill boosts for the Extra Talent Feat. I love that right now I'm more skilled at what I do than other Rogues my level. ;)
Scratch the level thing, I was reading Elemental Overflow wrong.
Cool stuff. I'm interested in a PDF.
I present the Aetherialist Racial Archetype
Something I just noticed is that there is a chance that 15th level is completely wasted depending on your choices. If you choose one element all three times, you gain something. If you choose your other element at 7th level them you literally gain nothing at 15th. No Infusions, no increase in CL, attack, damage, no composites, and depending on which you selected at first level, may not even gain another basic blast.
The only way to build this is pick one element 3 times or Air, Aether, Air. If you pick Aether, Air, Aether, you gain nothing at all at 15th. Maybe have a condition in there that you can pick either element at 15.
Well, I'm hardly an expert on the matter, but here are a couple of thoughts I've got:
You're working as a Kineticist/Rogue Hybrid, so I feel like you should break up the Rogue bits a little. As it is, you've got your rogue talents bunched up at the end and all the tasty rogue defensive stuff right at the front. It's a little strange. I'd break it up and put it more like:
Rogue Talents: At 3rd, 9th, 13th and 17th level, an Aetherialist gains a rogue talent. Otherwise this works as the Rogue's Rouge Talent ability. This replaces the infusions gained at 3rd, 9th, 13th and 17th level.
Evasion: At 5th level, the Aetherialist gains Evasion as the rogue class feature blah blah.
Uncanny Dodge: At 11th level, Aetherialist gets this blah blah
Advanced Talents: At 13th and 17th level, an Aetherialist can take an Advanced Rogue Talent in place of a Rogue Talent.
Improved Uncanny Dodge: Comes in at 19th level. It's a little late at this stage, but only as bad as the Variant Multiclass. Since it's coming in late, it can function as normal with no level reduction.
~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Other thoughts:
Trapfinding - I don't see any particular reason to drop the Trapfinding bonus from 1/2 to 1/3. Might as well keep it as it is.
Extended Range - Nifty talent. But I can't see any particular thematic reason for it being like it is. If anything, I'd recommend swapping it for Trapfinding, and keep Gather Power.
Airy Step - I like how you thought for this bit. Nice work. I'd also consider letting the Sylph's Air Affinity racial ability let your Constitution score count as being 2 points higher for all air themed kineticist powers.
Utility Specialisation - Sensible swap out since you've killed your infusions.
Soft Burn - I like the ability, and would probably pick it over Internal Buffer (Although I haven't actually played Kineticist this far yet), but I'm not totally sure that a defensive variation on the ability is necessarily appropriate.
~~~~~~~~~~~
I don't know what theme you're trying to do, but overall it doesn't feel especially uniquely Sylph-y. It's a pretty nice looking rogue/kineticist archetype though.
I feel like if you wanted something genuinely Sylph flavoured you should do more than just limiting your kinetic blasts to Air and Aether, which is honestly the only bit that's seems sylph-y.
Thanks Calethos, how about reducing the defensive talent burn cost for whichever element they pick at 15th? If they pick their original, that's a -2 to burn, otherwise they both get -1.
Wolin. :)
Truth be told, the Rogue Talents were more of an addendum to the project. I wasn't going to replace the missing infusions, but under advice I added them. The rogue defensive stuff worked well because it's always 1 level behind the rogue, which felt right. As someone who rarely even plays past 12th level (don't think I ever have actually), the higher levels seem far too late to gain these features. Admittedly, it seems far too late to start getting the basic rogue talents as well... *shrug* Maybe we should replace the talents with more thematic things.
Trapfinding: Purely to avoid stepping on toes. Since it started at the same level as the Rogue (unlike the level-later defenses), felt like there should be a penalty of sorts. But if consensus things 1/2 is fair, I'm happy to change it since it benefits me personally. :P
Extended Range: Gotta stay... not only for the better telekinesis it offers to Basic Telekinesis, but because Sylphs are air-y and try to stay at ranged combat. 30' is just way too close for us.
Air Affinity: I like that idea, but then I should switch back to Con+1 instead of Con+3 I think. Without all the infusions, having no BurnMax weakness means we have too much burn otherwise.
Sylph-y. :/ Well, I don't know if it's truly sylph-y, but I do know I play nothing ever but sylphs. Ever. (and I even played a Barbarian once) But the book identifies them as "shy, reclusive, and consumed by intense curiosity". That alone implies that they are rogue-ish in nature, wanting to get into places and things to see what's there, and of course the whole Kineticist elemental theme (both aether and air) are perfectly sylph-y. Combining them gives one the mechanics to play a very sylph-y character I think, but the "theme" itself probably comes more from the roleplaying than the mechanics. While I obviously didn't add things like "Wind Picks" to pick locks from a distance with, my ability to pick a lock from a distance is still very much there. :P
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Wolin got me thinking...
I don't like the Rogue Talents, as it does open things up to more rogue, less sylph, options. I'm thinking of switching the 11, 13, 17, and 19 (and 20) to as follows (admittedly, a bit influenced by my ethereal warrior prestige class I was working on):
11: Sneaky Sylph (Ex). When using stealth an aetherialist can move at full speed without penalty, and when making a ranged attack she only suffers a -10 instead of a -20 to maintain her obscured location.
13: Hide in the Sky (Ex). When flying in an outside area, an aetherialist can make a stealth check to hide, even while being observed.
17th: Air's Form (Sp) An aetherialist can spend a full round action to become incorporeal until the end of her next turn. This costs 1 burn, and allows her to go through as much solid material as her movement will allow. If flying, she moves at half speed for any move actions while incorporeal. If she ends her turn inside a solid object, she returns to the last point where there was an opening and loses another point of burn.
19th: Ethereal Jaunt (Sp) After spending a full round action to become incorporeal and spending 2 burn, an aetherialist is treated as if under the effects of an Ethereal Jaunt spell.
20th: Sylph Lord (Ex) Once per day, a Sylph Lord can ignore all burn costs on a single action.
Also, Composite Specialization at level 16 is no longer needed. That will be removed (not replaced) in my next release of the pdf.
Something else I'm thinking... my last post had 4 new abilities... perhaps better to make those Air/Aether Utility Wild Talents? And grant an extra Utility Wild Talent at those levels (so basically 1 utility every level instead of every even level)? It feels a bit convoluted having all these replacements. Maybe better to simply remove a bunch of stuff then include a bunch of utility talents they can pick up on the odd levels as well?
Even the (1)trapfinding, (3)evasion, (5,7)dodges, (9)softburn... those could be utilities to be picked up... or not picked up if the player finds more elementally utilities to be tastier to his taste. These exclusive wild talents could be set to either/or air/aether.
Thoughts?
Those new sylph themed abilities are great! I'd definitely keep them around, and they're definitely better suited than rogue talents to the archetype.
They do come in sort of late again though. I know what you're getting at with wanting the nice defensive things as early as you can with these substitutions, but the bunch up is still awkward. If you don't like the breakup I did there, go for Evasion at 3rd, Uncanny Dodge at 9th and Improved Uncanny Dodge at 13th. It's still slower, but I think it suits well.
As for the new abilities, either
1 - make them options as utility talents and give extra utility when you'd get an infusion not replaced by the defensive. Sneaky Sylph and Air's Form can be accessed pretty early, Hide in the Sky at level 6, and Ethereal Jaunt maybe at 10th?
2 - Make them compulsory at the levels where you don't get your defensives.
Keep in mind unchained monk can also become ethereal like this at level 4, and potentially for longer. If you're these high level abilities (such as 17th/19th), I'd make it a personal only version of etherealness instead, or give some other bigger bonus.
I guess your explanation for Extended range seems valid enough to suit the archetype. Unless you can come up with anything else that seems suitable.
I understand that you don't want trapfinding to step on toes, but since you've got it you might as well use it to its full extent. That or try something else to take its place.
As a starting point, how about granting windy escape as a spell-like ability usable 1 per day per 2 kineticist levels? Or maybe some other selection of spell-likes that seem suitable.
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Ok, as an experiment, I changed the system to use all Utility Wild Talents, and it feels so much cleaner to me. You still get the same results in the end... mostly... My level 20 example had 3 more Utility Wild Talents than I had before, but the rest was pretty much the same.
I had to kill the Sylph Lord, getting 2 maximized/empowered kinetic blasts as a single simple action for free was too much. Currently, there is no level 20 anything. The new version is visible at the same link.
Hmmm.... think Ethereal Jaunt is too soon, maybe 8th level instead of 6th level talent, and 2 burn instead of 1. Other than that, I think it feels pretty solid for character building. The only problem is if it's not too powerful. I'm not the best judge of balance.
That does seem overall a lot cleaner and easier to use now. I like what you've done with Agile Dodge particularly.
I think I'd be okay with Ethereal Jaunt as it is. You're not getting it any earlier than full casters so probably even just a single point of burn is fine. And, as mentioned, for some reason unchained monk can get this at 4th level (Although they spend most of their ki on it at that point).
Here's a level 20 ability I thought might be appropriate:
Sylph Lord (Su): At 20th level, the Aetherialist becomes a true master of Air. Her type changes to Outsider with the Air subtype. She no longer needs to breathe, gains a 20% miss chance against all ranged weapons and gains DR 5/piercing. In addition, the Aetherialist can cast any spell with the Air, Lightning or Force descriptor by accepting burn equal to 1/2 the spell level -1 (minimum 1).
Hey, it's level 20. It's allowed to be strong. In case it's not clear, 0th to 5th level spells cost 1 burn, 6th and 7th cost 2 and 8th and 9th cost 3.
Otherwise, looking pretty good, in my inexpert opinion. I'm uncertain about letting standard kineticists take those utility talents, but I guess that would be at GM discretion.
Well, Ethereal Jaunt is a 7th, not 6th, level spell, which is why I think we should change it to 7th level. We shouldn't get it before wizards/sorcerers, since they have more limited use of it.
As for Sylph Lord, this is a Sylph-only class, so we're all already Outsiders with the Air subtype... :P And with our Enveloping Winds, are already having a 50% against all ranged weapons.
So it'd look more like:
Sylph Lord (Su): At 20th level, the Aetherialist becomes a true master of Air. She no longer needs to breathe, DR 5/piercing. In addition, the Aetherialist can cast any spell with the Air, Lightning or Force descriptor by accepting burn equal to 1/2 the spell level -1 (minimum 1). The spell does not require somatic, verbal nor material components to cast.
And yes, I like it. :) Admittedly, we are burn-low (since we can't Gather, Supercharge, etc...), I think at level 20 I ended up with a 30 Con, That's 13 burn, of which 7 are spent on defenses to have that 30 Con. So with 6 burn left for the day... :/