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Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?

Because that's impossible. You need magic for that.

Dark Archive

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Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?

Because there's no such thing as 'greese'.


Samy wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?
Because that's impossible. You need magic for that.

Ok, we get the joke, it's not funny though.


Grammar Nazi wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?
Because there's no such thing as 'greese'.

There's also no such thing as magic so neener neener neener :)

Paizo Employee Organized Play Developer

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Samy wrote:
Obviously they had some kind of innate magic. It's impossible to be "so amazing at lassoing". The laws of physics are the laws of physics and you can't break them without magic.

Unless you happen to be playing a fantasy roleplaying game where the laws of physics in our world are actually thrown out the window starting at 1st level and get even less relevant as levels go on. I think what bugs people is the inconsistency with which some people like to apply the "laws of physics" argument. Yeah, you can go skydiving without a parachute into the heart of a volcano and wipe yourself off with your favorite towel afterwards, but heaven forbid you should jump more than 15 feet straight up in the air, swing your sword so fast or so hard that you create a shockwave of air, or something similar without magical aid.

Sovereign Court

It's really a matter of semantics.

If you separate out 'supernatural' and 'magic' as being distinct - giving the undefined 'supernatural' to matials - you get way fewer arguments.

As to the aforementioned Rock Lee - I will say that he definitely had supernatural juice. He had chakra like all other ninja - he just couldn't manifest it outside of his own body due to his disorder - so he had to use it all to just be a bad-ass martial artist.

Note: Rock Lee losing to Gaara was the classic Worf usage. They'd already shown that Rock Lee was awesome, so him losing to Gaara was to show off how scary Gaara was. Classic trope. I will say - while it annoyed me a bit - they did have a pretty cool side-plot of Rock Lee being awesome during recovery etc.


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As was once so aptly put

"When you obtain the power to Cast an empowered, Maximized, Heightened fireball while shouting to your friends explicit combat strategies and then fire a quickened Empowered Fireball at something else while flying 60 ft into cover and dropping prone all in exactly 6 seconds I'll believe you when you tell me the laws of physics make it impossible for my crossbowmen to shoot his crossbow 6 times in 6 seconds."


We do not know the laws of physics in or own universe well enough to rule out some of the discussed activities let alone the laws of physics of PF.


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So what it sounds like is people are interested in something like HERO, where you can do any number of things and change the special effect from "magic" to "extreme physical abilities".

That or convince Paizo to put out an anime/legendary figure source book, something beyond what Mythic was designed for.

Shadow Lodge

Lemmy wrote:
EntrerisShadow wrote:

Wait, hold everything - you don't like Pink Floyd?

But . . . why?!

Personally, when it comes to color, I've always been more into Deep shades of Purple...

Ridiculous! The best color is a sort of a Purple Haze.

Shadow Lodge

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Zhangar wrote:

Actually, I should probably ask this:

Who would you consider to be an example of a high fantasy martial character?

And how many of those high fantasy martial characters aren't using ki or artifacts or divine heritage or some other thing that's just magic under a different name as their power source?

I don't think anyone has ever accused Pecos Bill of being a wizurd.

Nor Paul Bunyan.

Shadow Lodge

Kirth Gersen wrote:

Here's a crazy thought... what if rangers were actually really good at tracking? By which I mean that locate person, find the path, discern location, trace teleport, et al. stopped being spells, and become ranger class features instead?

What if rogues were really the best at rogue stuff? So that invisibility, spider climb, freedom of movement, et al. stopped being spells, and became rogue class features instead?

Or, if those abilities should be available to everyone, then so should the caster-only tricks.

I would love stuff like this. ESPECIALLY if most of it was at-will, and was categorized (Ex), not (Su), (Sp), or as an SLA.

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sounds to me like people could easily enough solve their problems just by accepting that they want their martials to do magic things. They want to lasso a tornado? Game effect is just that they use Fly. They want to slash a portal between two places? They just use Teleport. And so on. The things they want to do are already in the game. If it bothers them that they are called 'spells', just re-fluff them as 'abilities' and you're done. For this we need an entire sourcebook?

Shadow Lodge

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Samy wrote:
Obviously they had some kind of innate magic. It's impossible to be "so amazing at lassoing". The laws of physics are the laws of physics and you can't break them without magic.

\

You can't have dragons that fly, then.
Or bugs that exceed Small in size.
Also, bumblebees? They can't fly.


We're still looking at legends, demi-gods and folklore and trying to adapt those to the current rules set, which doesn't support a guy who eats dynamite and uses snakes as a lasso. Just because the story doesn't explicitly say "Bob used magic totally here guys" doesn't mean that the abilities aren't magical or divine in nature.

Authors aren't constrained by game rules.

The more I hear this, the more it sounds like a non-specific system would work out better.

Shadow Lodge

Samy wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?
Because that's impossible. You need magic for that.

Ok, let's hold martials to realism.

To make the game balanced, we also will hold spellcasters to realism.

As such, spellcasters chant gibberish, play with owlbear feces, and make shadow puppets....AND NOTHING HAPPENS!

The wizard just bottomed out to being at a tier below the commoner.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

That's not how D&D works, sorry.

*Magic* is how you go *beyond* realism. It's the whole engine for breaking that border.

Shadow Lodge

Charon's Little Helper wrote:
Note: Rock Lee losing to Gaara was the classic Worf usage. They'd already shown that Rock Lee was awesome, so him losing to Gaara was to show off how scary Gaara was. Classic trope.

The problem is that actual Worf was used so many times for that trope that his supposed awesomness was essentially an Informed Ability.


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Samy wrote:

That's not how D&D works, sorry.

*Magic* is how you go *beyond* realism. It's the whole engine for breaking that border.

So... how do giant spiders work? Or elementals? Or high-level fighters.

In an anti-magic field the spider does not collapse, the elemental does not die, high level fighters don't suddenly go back to realistic levels of health.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
So... how do giant spiders work?

Island gigantism?

Created by magic?

Created by deities?

There are transmutation spells with the duration of 'instantaneous' and the end product is no longer magical. I have no problem envisioning a similar genesis.


Ssalarn wrote:


Unless you happen to be playing a fantasy roleplaying game where the laws of physics in our world are actually thrown out the window starting at 1st level and get even less relevant as levels go on. I think what bugs people is the inconsistency with which some people like to apply the "laws of physics" argument. Yeah, you can go skydiving without a parachute into the heart of a volcano and wipe yourself off with your favorite towel afterwards, but heaven forbid you should jump more than 15 feet straight up in the air, swing your sword so fast or so hard that you create a shockwave of air, or something similar without magical aid.

I think the problem with the volcano example is that I don't think developers sat down at any point and consciously decided "high level characters should wade through lave and survive", so much as the game mechanics that they set down, via the way HP increases and how damage is determined, just sort of resulted in that.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Besides which, there's always common sense rule zero. I personally don't know anyone who'd allow someone to survive wading through lava on just hit points alone, no matter how much they had, without any sort of fire resistance.


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Samy wrote:
That's not how D&D works, sorry.

I'm beginning to think you haven't been following the conversation because yeah, no s!!~, that's what people are complaining about.


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Samy wrote:
Milo v3 wrote:
So... how do giant spiders work?

Island gigantism?

Created by magic?

Created by deities?

There are transmutation spells with the duration of 'instantaneous' and the end product is no longer magical. I have no problem envisioning a similar genesis.

What if, whenever a child is born a Miracle effect occurs with an instantaneous duration to create that child. Thus, "non-magical" characters can Celtic myth style stuff because they were created by magic.

Note: There is no rules for reproduction so there is no reason why this might not be happening to begin with.


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Kthulhu wrote:
Samy wrote:
Insain Dragoon wrote:
If we have Wizards so mighty they can create whole dimensions, why don't we have Fighters so skilled they can slice a hole into a new dimension with nothing but a sword and some elbow greese?
Because that's impossible. You need magic for that.

Ok, let's hold martials to realism.

To make the game balanced, we also will hold spellcasters to realism.

As such, spellcasters chant gibberish, play with owlbear feces, and make shadow puppets....AND NOTHING HAPPENS!

The wizard just bottomed out to being at a tier below the commoner.

I think most people model their "realism" in the game after whatever media they enjoy. Personally I want martials to reflect the abilities of John McClane, Inigo Montoya, or Sandor Clegane. I don't necessarily want a strict realism, but rather a cinematic one.

Looking at the game, there is a measure of "realism" for spellcasters, and thats comparisons with spellcasters in other media. Pathfinder unfortunately does a really really really bad job at emulating a wizard in literature and film, as they are far far more powerful than any of those characters.

Martials need SOME buffing, but as I have stated before, it really wizards that need nerfing. And honestly that level of change probably something that would need to happen in an edition change, not via patchwork fixes in other hardcovers.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Rather than getting caught up in the details, I would appreciate it if someone would try to clarify the crux of the issue -- why is it not enough to re-fluff spells as 'epic abilities' or whatever you want them called? Is it because you want to have full BAB *and* the equivalent of 9th level spells at the same time?


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Hey, we have like 20 martial/caster threads to bash at each other on. Let's crawl back to the topic or perhaps go back to discussing which game system might address these problems better, or even suggestions that might help Pathfinder be the game that does what you'd like.


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Samy wrote:
Rather than getting caught up in the details, I would appreciate it if someone would try to clarify the crux of the issue -- why is it not enough to re-fluff spells as 'epic abilities' or whatever you want them called? Is it because you want to have full BAB *and* the equivalent of 9th level spells at the same time?

Because we don't want full BAB & equivalent to 9th level spells. We want to be able to make a Full BAB character who can replicate a small number of superhuman tricks. Maybe by 20th, the Mythic Fighter can use an adamantine sword to cut the threads of time, to cut rifts in the planes , and to cut spells that try to hit him. But that fighter can't just make a plane of existance or animate dead or curse someone, etc.

We want warriors that can do the superhuman. Not a warrior who casts spells.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Samy wrote:
why is it not enough to re-fluff spells as 'epic abilities' or whatever you want them called? Is it because you want to have full BAB *and* the equivalent of 9th level spells at the same time?
Because we don't want full BAB & equivalent to 9th level spells. We want to be able to make a Full BAB character who can replicate a small number of superhuman tricks.

That's modelled by a 4-level caster.

Quote:
Maybe by 20th, the Mythic Fighter can use an adamantine sword to cut the threads of time, to cut rifts in the planes , and to cut spells that try to hit him.

Those sound like 9th level spell equivalents. In order to go that powerful, I think it would be reasonable to have to give up full BAB.

Quote:
But that fighter can't just make a plane of existance or animate dead or curse someone, etc.

The exact abilities he could do can be modelled by picking his spells along the lines that you want him to be able to do.

Quote:
We want warriors that can do the superhuman. Not a warrior who casts spells.

Mechanically, there's really no difference whether an effect is done via "superhuman" means or "spellcasting" means. What matters is how powerful the effect is, and if the character wants to be able to cut rifts in planes, then he is effectively casting high-level spells, and for that, it would be reasonable to have to pay off that high ability with loss in BAB.


Samy wrote:
That's modelled by a 4-level caster.

No it isn't. Because they have spells....

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Quote:
Maybe by 20th, the Mythic Fighter can use an adamantine sword to cut the threads of time, to cut rifts in the planes , and to cut spells that try to hit him.
Those sound like 9th level spell equivalents. In order to go that powerful, I think it would be reasonable to have to give up full BAB.

Actually only the time one is 9th level, the rift is just planeshift or teleport, and cutting spells can function just by a bonus on saves & or ranged touch attacks.

Quote:
Mechanically, there's really no difference whether an effect is done via "superhuman" means or "spellcasting" means. What matters is how powerful the effect is, and if the character wants to be able to cut rifts in planes, then he is effectively casting high-level spells, and for that, it would be reasonable to have to pay off that high ability with loss in BAB.

Except for... caster level, concentration checks, spellcraft checks, knowledge (arcana), anti-magic fields, dispel magic, detect magic, aura sight, spell slots, spell preparation, bonus spells, etc. etc. etc.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Milo v3 wrote:
Samy wrote:
That's modelled by a 4-level caster.
No it isn't. Because they have spells....

Remember, the premise was, call them 'epic abilities' instead of spells.

Quote:
Quote:
Mechanically, there's really no difference whether an effect is done via "superhuman" means or "spellcasting" means. What matters is how powerful the effect is, and if the character wants to be able to cut rifts in planes, then he is effectively casting high-level spells, and for that, it would be reasonable to have to pay off that high ability with loss in BAB.
Except for... caster level, concentration checks, spellcraft checks, knowledge (arcana), anti-magic fields, dispel magic, detect magic, aura sight, spell slots, spell preparation, bonus spells, etc. etc. etc.

Even if such a "martial magic" class were built from the ground up, it would surely have the equivalents of caster level, spell slots, probably bonus spells, perhaps some of those others too. So why not use an already existing system?

Now, I can see that maybe the 'anti-magic field' might be a big stickler of an issue. That could be a crucial difference. You'd want someone who'd still be able to perform epic things in an anti-magic field. How about this? Make 'martial' another category of magic, like divine, arcane and psychic, and one of its special features is that it works in anti-magic fields.

Grand Lodge RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32, RPG Superstar 2012 Top 32

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Samy wrote:
I still haven't heard what's wrong with just calling spells 'epic abilities'. Solves all problems. (Well, with a few small tweaks.)

To speak only for myself, I find that two game elements which are different only in name do not satisfy my sense of flavor. Only when two things are experientially different does the term "roleplaying game" really start to mean something (again, for me).

For example, compare sorcerers and wizards. Wizards are supposed to be casters who study, plan, and prepare to cast spells that they've come to understand intellectually. Sorcerers are supposed to be casters who have innate powers and bend magic to their whims through force of will.

This is reflected in the difference of their spellcasting mechanics: the studious caster selects and prepares spells one by one, and it is through intellect that he learns to get the most out of them (INT as the casting stat), which in turn means wizards tend to have more skill points and are more adept at Knowledge skills (reinforcing the "study" vibe). Meanwhile, the charisma caster casts spontaneously, can't alter his spells for different circumstances, and uses a casting stat that leaves him well-suited to social skills and little else (reinforcing the "use charisma to influence the world" vibe).

The different mechanics create different play experiences (even while using the exact same spells!), helping to materially differentiate the concepts, thereby reinforcing actual roleplay. If instead they had the same mechanics (the same casting system, same casting stat, etc), then they would be the same experience, and the alleged differences in their descriptions (study vs innate) become shallow nonsense rather than genuine roleplay.

It's the same with fantastic martial abilities. If you just change the label on spells, you're not playing a martial; you're playing a caster and then lying to yourself about it. There has to be a real, tangible, experiential difference to playing a martial instead of a caster.

That, for me at least, is "what's wrong with just calling spells 'epic abilities'".

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