Kineticist (Overwhelming Soul) and Dhampir

Rules Questions

Grand Lodge

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate. 1 person marked this as a favorite.

Hey, all.

I was building a Vetala-Born Dhampir Kineticist for my group's (not PFS play) upcoming Reign of Winter campaign, and noticed an oddity with the Overwhelming Soul archtype.

Kineticist (Overwhelming Soul): wrote:
Mental Prowess: ... She can't choose to accept burn, through she can use wild talents with a burn cost if she can reduce that cost to 0 points with abilities such as gather and infusion specialization. If she would be force to accept burn against her will (for example, if she fails a concentration check), instead of taking burn she takes 1 temporary negative level, which never kills her and can't be removed with restoration or greater restoration, but which disappears automatically after 24 hours...

*emphasis mine*

Dhampir Resist Energy Drain: wrote:
A dhampir takes no penalties from energy drain effects, though he can still be killed if he accrues more negative levels then he has Hit Dice. After 24 hours, any negative levels a dhampir takes are removed without the need for an additional saving throw.

So if I'm applying these two correctly, the Dhampir Overwhelming Soul can fail concentration checks all day without any actual penalty, and with Mental Prowess won't lose the negative level required to kill him. This effectively negates the class penalty replacing burn, excepting for if he take negative levels from another source.

Then ya, it's a bad day... or would be if he was alive.

1) Is this the correct way these two abilities interact, or would a Dhampir be subject to negative level penalties inflicted by himself on himself?

2. Assume he had max negative levels from Mental Prowess (character level-1), and then received a negative level from another source. Under this circumstance, he'd have to raise, have the appropriate restoration cast, but would return with character level-1 of negative levels still applied right? (Or, does death bypass the cannot use restoration or greater restoration to remove self inflicted negative levels?)

3. If the above dead dhampir was revived after 24 hours, would the self inflicted negative levels still be on countdown? Or are they removed after 24 hours regardless of if the dhampir is alive or dead? If they are removed, does he return to life the next day with only the other source negative levels applied?

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Interesting idea

1) Dhampir ignore the penality on negative levels whatever the cause is, even if self inflicted.
2) Only permanent drain last after being resurrected. The temporary one like from the Kineticis would disappear.
3) Read the 2)

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber

I don't thinks so as I don't think the "1 temporary negative level" is not from a "energy drain effects" and would work normally.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Card Game, Companion, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Yeah, I don't think Mental Prowess is an energy drain effect. Its penalties would still apply.

Paizo Employee Designer

1 person marked this as a favorite.

Azouth and KingofAnything are right as far as I can see; it isn't energy drain.

Yup, it isn't stated to be energy drain, the mechanic of negative level could be used for other sources, in this case, it's a variant penalty of "burn". The dhampir ability WOULD apply to removing any negative levels after 24 hrs, but the Mental Prowess "burn" negative levels expire after 24 hrs anyways.

I will not pretend to know more than Mark, but Energy Drain and Negative Levels are under one and the same definition in the glossary and in the special attack category. They are one and the same mechanics as far as i can see.

Dekalinder wrote:
I will not pretend to know more than Mark, but Energy Drain and Negative Levels are under one and the same definition in the glossary and in the special attack category. They are one and the same mechanics as far as i can see.

They are not.

Energy Drain is a SQ some creatures have that bestows negative levels in a specific way.

Check out the Bodak. It bestows permanent negative levels without Energy Drain (ie. without inflicting the "energy drained" condition).

RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16

There's ways to get negative levels without energy drain effects, such as raise dead and wielding an unholy weapon when you're good aligned. Dhampirs still take penalties from those effects as normal.

The very concept behind negative levels is that you have being drained of some of your energy. Note that under the same header I liked above regarding energy drain are called out all spells and effects that bestow negative levels, both temporary and permanent. Raise dead and similar spells are also specifically called. I hate to insist, but those are the exact same things. It's been one of the system overhaul from 3.5 to pathfinder.


All Energy Drain = Negative Levels is not the same as All Negative Levels = Energy Drain, sorry.

Archaeik wrote:


All Energy Drain = Negative Levels is not the same as All Negative Levels = Energy Drain, sorry.

If you want to use propositional logic, then fine by me. What you said is certainly true. But is true that if

All and only Energy Drain = Negative Levels
All Negative Levels = Energy Drain.

Since they are under the same rule "Energy Drain an Negative Levels", the relation is not direct, but Bijective, thus the above is indeed true. In other words, There is no Negative Level without Energy Drain since they both refer to the same rule. Unless this is going to be faqerated.

Nothing in the Energy Drain section suggests it is the only source of negative levels.

Some spells and a number of undead creatures have the ability to drain away life and energy;

I agree that coupling the two under the same heading causes a bit of confusion, but being related does not implicitly make them bijective.

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I simply don't see anywhere that indicates "All and Only Energy Drain=Negative Levels"

They may be the main type of negative levels, but there are many other things that would cause you to loose levels (Some games actually shortcut temporary memory loss as negative levels, for instance).


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