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I usually don't complain about archetypes and power levels, but I am having trouble with this one, and hoping I'm missing something.
The mindblade cast psychic spells. That means that the components are now emotion and thought. Thought spells now suffer a -10 to concentration rolls. I assume this applies to casting defensively. You can take a move action to negate the penalty.
So, A magus in combat (Where he should be) has to cast defensively with a -10 penalty or take a move action, which means no spell combat?
I am ok with taking some penalties for flavor, but isn't this just a bit too much. I can't imagine anyone playing this.
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I usually don't complain about archetypes and power levels, but I am having trouble with this one, and hoping I'm missing something.
The mindblade cast psychic spells. That means that the components are now emotion and thought. Thought spells now suffer a -10 to concentration rolls. I assume this applies to casting defensively. You can take a move action to negate the penalty.
So, A magus in combat (Where he should be) has to cast defensively with a -10 penalty or take a move action, which means no spell combat?
I am ok with taking some penalties for flavor, but isn't this just a bit too much. I can't imagine anyone playing this.
As with the other psychics, you're frequently looking at all the different options for increasing your concentration check. There are lots of options here:
Trait for +2
Combat Casting
Uncanny Concentration
Spell Specialization, Varisian Tattoo, and other caster level increases
What's kind of different here, though, is that you're given a few options with this class that don't exist elsewhere. Sure, you're not going to Spell Combat as often, but you're given the option straight away to ignore weapon purchases and select your weapon based on your current needs. Your default option is likely going to be a two handed weapon to preserve your spell slots until later.
Essentially, taking this archetype is acknowledging that you will not be doing the standard Shocking Grasp build of Magus. Maybe you spend more of your spells per day on defensive buffs. Maybe you utilize some of the ridiculous options that you pick up from the Psychic spell list, like Create Mindscape (the ultimate trolling spell!). If you intend to play a Mindblade like a standard Magus, yes, it's a straight downgrade. Read the Psychic spell list and you'll see that it's trolololololtastic once you start picking up your extra spells.
To be fair its at a -10, but lets give an example here.
You're taking a full round action meaning you're likley already next to them or 5ft away. You can 5ft step any any point during this.
So either of the scenarios occur.
1. You attack, then 5-ft back to cast.
2. You cast, then 5-ft forward to attack.
Scenario 1 you can easily do some shocking grasp fun as long as you pick up lunge so you can reach from 5ft away.
Thought component spells allow you to center yourself as a move action which obviously isn't super useful for you with spell combat but at least lets you get around it should the need arise to cast in melee.
Honestly my main concern of the mindblade is more the enhancement bonus penalties they take. If they let them eat those +1 bonuses from 15th and 18th level or if they're permanently just +3 weapons (and can their arcane pool buff on top of that).
The way I read it, at 18th level you can have a +5 flaming burst longsword, a +1 keen vorpal longsword, or anything in between.
I more meant the dual weapon piece. Aka, if you do 2 longswords later on it becomes -2 to the enchantment bonus of it. So it sounds like if you decide to do 2 weapon fighting you'll have to give up those +1 and +2 bonuses at 15th and 18th if you want to keep the weapon at +5. Unless somehow you can boost it with your arcane pool on top of that to not worry as much about enchantment bonuses.
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So I can burn feats and arcana just to get back to where a magus starts. Reduce my attack bonus (Which is already at a penalty for spell combat) and still most likely be suffering a huge penalty. Remember this is a -10. Only use my spells out of combat. What I get is casting in silence, A blade that is pretty much the same that a bladebound magus gets, but a bit more versatile and access to some physic spells which may be real good.
I basically have to learn to play a magus like a non-magus, which kind of defeats the point of playing one. Why did they keep spell combat and spell strike if they were going to make using them nearly impossible without focusing a lot of resources just to get back to the starting point. It doesn't make any sense.
So I can burn feats and arcana just to get back to where a magus starts. Reduce my attack bonus (Which is already at a penalty for spell combat) and still most likely be suffering a huge penalty. Remember this is a -10. Only use my spells out of combat. What I get is casting in silence, A blade that is pretty much the same that a bladebound magus gets, but a bit more versatile and access to some physic spells which may be real good.
I basically have to learn to play a magus like a non-magus, which kind of defeats the point of playing one. Why did they keep spell combat and spell strike if they were going to make using them nearly impossible without focusing a lot of resources just to get back to the starting point. It doesn't make any sense.
You really don't have to avoid playing a magus like normal.
Long Arm, Lunge, anything that can give you a boost to reach is basically the main benefit here. As long as you aren't in a threatened area provoking isn't a problem, so keeping enemies at arm's length (literally) will keep you from having to make these checks.
Lunge requires BAB+6 of course but, Long Arm is a 1st level magus spell. So you have an option until you reach that point.
*Facepalms* Because spontaneous casting is an overwhelming advantage.
Please note, the above is sarcasm.
They overvalue spontaneous casting a bit, but i think the point is also is the expanded spell list that lets you grab spells from there.
Also, yes concentration checks are 10 harder, but honestly grabbing all these concentration boosters is what most players would do as a magus anyways, the difference is you might actually have to roll while most magus just auto-win the checks half the time.
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Well lets look at things.
Every magus spell that I can find has a verbal component. Blowing my first feat on combat casting, bonus on uncanny concentration, one trait for a +2. That means to cast a level one spell I need a 17. With 20 point buy and a 16 int, that means I need to roll a 12 or higher. Less than a 50% chance after spending my only two feats and a trait. I don't know, that seems like a huge deterrent. Maybe its just me, but as I said, I am ok with taking a penalty for the cool factor, but this is just too much.
Also, once you gain the ability to spellcombat with a two-handed weapon, you can spellcombat at reach. Add longarm and enlarge and that can be VERY far away. There is no need to cast defensively if you aren't threatened.
And until then, there is also the option of making a Whip when you really want to deliver the spell from a distance.
This archtype still excites me because now you have a Magus whose power cannot be taken away w/o magic; IE his weapons are always available, and his spells are spontaneous and often without material component.
I love it!
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The problem with GMW is that the bonuses will only last as long as you are manifesting the weapon. If you drop it for any reason such as being disarmed, stunned, or walk into a social situation where having a weapon in hand would be a faux pas, then the spell is over, and you must re-cast it when you manifest a new weapon.
I feel from these responses, if you don't like it don't play it, but a fair number of people don't feel it's an issue like you do and are fine with it. They've provided what they'd do to get around the +10, if you feel it's not worth it then this is an archetype to stay away from as it's a downgrade for you. But people, including me, feel it's fine and able to be worked around with just a bit of work.
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The problem with GMW is that the bonuses will only last as long as you are manifesting the weapon. If you drop it for any reason such as being disarmed, stunned, or walk into a social situation where having a weapon in hand would be a faux pas, then the spell is over, and you must re-cast it when you manifest a new weapon.
Never said it was perfect but it is an option.
I love the flavor behind the class, and the versatility is unparalleled. I have been given the OK to switch my current magus to a mind blade in my current campaign and couldn't be more excited.
I agree with Torbyne that frostbite will be the bread and butter damage spell, especially with the duel wield option later down the road. And you should have the bonus to concentration to overcome the defensive check (of low level spells at least).
It would be nice if we could take an arcana to use the metamagic to remove thought component once a day (or more) for free, sort of like empower magic and such.
My Magus hardly ever rolls Concentration checks.
Okay, so what if I want to use the two-hand option with, say, a greatsword instead of a reach weapon and I actually care that having flailing, noodly arms from Long Arm would look absolutely ridiculous?
Okay, so what if I want to use the two-hand option with, say, a greatsword instead of a reach weapon and I actually care that having flailing, noodly arms from Long Arm would look absolutely ridiculous?you cant spell combat with a two handed weapon until level 13 anyways, by that time you could have taken just about every option to improve your concentration checks and the extra +10 should be too hard, yeah?
True. It is pretty irksome that you can't spell combat with a two-handed weapon until 13th, though. At least you won't have to buy a new weapon when you get there.
Wait a second! I don't have the book myself yet, so which can they actually not do until 13th with a two-hander: Spell Combat or Spellstrike? Because you could probably figure out a way to still play two-handed up until then depending on which. If it's both you'd probably have to make do with one-handed until then.
Before you get it as a swift action, is it a move action or a standard action to conjure a single weapon?
If it's a move action, you could cast a multi-touch spell and hold the charge as well as conjure your 2h Mindblade in the same round so that in subsequent rounds you could Spellstrike the charges.
If it's a standard, though, you'd end up having to wait an extra round to be able to Spellstrike with the 2h.
In either case, I don't know if it would even be a useful thing to do in comparison to just going one-handed.
Oh, by the way, I think that you might get the two-handed Spell Combat later because it doesn't have the attack penalty that TWF does. I don't know how justified that is, but it may be the reason nonetheless.
It's a standard action.
Mindblade Magi also have Undercasting options too. Plus a Two-weapon fighting Force Hook Charge rampage sounds like it would be a blast to pull off.
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it is a standard action before 8. but they always last until you let go. in many campaigns you could get away with casting your spell and manifesting you blades at the start of the adventuring day. when you let go of a blade you regain your pool points and its a free action so if you have to cast again you drop and cast, bring the weapon back on your next turn if you have to, or be a standard magus for the rest of combat.
I just remembered: Psychic spells have no somatic component, so you don't have to take a hand off of a weapon. Even if you're TWF with 2 Mindblades, you can still cast and not have to spend a standard or swift action to re-conjure one.
Now, the real question remains: is this the era of the Thunder and Fang Magus?!
I think I'd still go for keen kukri and keen scimitar myself. Thunder and fang would be hilarious though.
No love for the Estoc? Or the Monowhip?! Cmon, Greater Two-Weapon Fighting Spell Combat with a pair of Monowhips! That'd be two light weapons each with 2d6 slashing damage, 18-20/x3 crits, 15ft. reach, targeting touch AC. With Keen for 15-20/x3. You just can't apply your Strength modifier to your damage rolls. Perfectly balanced option. XD
An earth breaker is still a two hanged weapon and a klar is a one handed weapon despite any feats that let you wield them differently. Thunder and fang will cost five points to manifest, when you could have spent two with light weapons or three for a double weapon.
Ah, yes, I forgot about the point cost to manifest them. Dual Monowhips for everyone, I guess! GMs cry in fear!
Odds are you can get your monowhip but not any charges for it :p
I think there have been debates on whether a conjured version of a tech weapon has or needs charges, but I don't know the outcome. I wouldn't seriously use that setup anyway.
That said, there should be a build challenge on the assumption that it does work for who can make the most ridiculously broken build with the only requirements being official Paizo content only, Mindblade Magus two-weapon fighting with monowhips, and you have to come up with a character to go with the build. It'd be hilarious.
About the Monowhip, Recharge is still a Magus Spell if you really want to put the effort.
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About the Monowhip, Recharge is still a Magus Spell if you really want to put the effort.
Would probably be a better idea to do that with a chainsaw, in the case of legitimately playing it with charges. Monowhips are 1 charge per round activated, chainsaws are 1 charge per hour. A Mindblade could even still use it with Spell Combat at 13th level onward! Anyone want to stat up a Mindchainsaw Magus?
What is the hardness and hit points of the mindblade? Same as the weapon it emulates?
What do you guys think of a strength based mindblade versus a dexterity based mindblade? Or should you be trying to increase both as much as you can get away with?
Chill touch is another one with charges, deals str dmg.
Question, is there any reason at high level we couldn't use Greater Magic Weapon on our Psychic weapon? This would help us achieve that +10 effective status on our weapon?
gmw confers an enhancement bonus, so it won't stack with the mindblade's enhancement bonus... though, if you push the mindblade's bonuses into special abilities, maybe gmw could recover some of the atk/dmg bonus for you?