The Adventure Path After Hell's Vengeance ...


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Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Rednal wrote:
Think of them as being closer to, oh, a natural disaster.

Ah, the Galactus perspective. I see what you're going for.

I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning in a strictly D&D alignment context, though. In that specific context:

* they are sentient creatures, and decide what they do
* they are willing to kill other sentients just to advance their own cause

In a purely D&D alignment context, I think that pretty much fits the definition of Evil.

Now, if they only killed others in self-defense, that might be another thing. I haven't read much Lovecraft, so I can't say I know much about how the creatures usually behave.

Also, since the AP will largely feature low levels, we also have to think about how those worshipping the creatures behave. Do they try to just burn candles and chant hymns in a cathedral somewhere off to the side without hurting others (Neutral), or do they try to capture people for human sacrifices (Evil). Even if the Cthulhus themselves were Neutral, the people worshipping them could easily be Evil.


FTHANGH!
great idea, I'm looking forward to it
#makelovecraftnotwarcraft

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Ridge wrote:
Justin Franklin wrote:

During the Adventure Path Q&A seminar, The Strange Eons Adventure Path was announced! This will follow the Hell’s Vengeance AP and will be available August, 2016.

This will be a very Lovecraftian themed AP. Focusing on the Old gods.

Will have amnesiac players.
Will involve a lot of travel.
Dreamlands may be explored, meeting famous authors of books, such as the necronomicon, etc…

Back matter will have a lot of lovecraftian details.
Will explore new continents in Golarion!

I must be one of the only five geeks on the planet who is just not that into Lovecraftian stuff.

That said, the exploration of new continents ? That I like, a lot.

I love both. Exploring I love slightly more, but Lovecraft maccab is right up there with it


@Samy: I usually have a few more nuances than that. For example, the Paladins trying to retake the Worldwound are sentient creatures who go out to kill other sentient creatures (Demons! And other stuff!) to advance their own cause, but most people seem to be in agreement on who's good and who's evil there. XD I usually ask why people are doing something - though you're right in that low-level cultists trend towards evil for lovecraftian deities, which I think is rather unfortunate.

I'd be very happy if at least some of those cultists could be portrayed as non-evil - or even beneficial to the party. For example, "OUR tentacled overlord isn't too happy about what's going on, and told us to help you by teaching you this ritual to help seal off their tentacled overlord...".


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Samy wrote:
Rednal wrote:
Think of them as being closer to, oh, a natural disaster.

Ah, the Galactus perspective. I see what you're going for.

I'm not sure I buy that line of reasoning in a strictly D&D alignment context, though. In that specific context:

* they are sentient creatures, and decide what they do
* they are willing to kill other sentients just to advance their own cause

In a purely D&D alignment context, I think that pretty much fits the definition of Evil.

Now, if they only killed others in self-defense, that might be another thing. I haven't read much Lovecraft, so I can't say I know much about how the creatures usually behave.

Also, since the AP will largely feature low levels, we also have to think about how those worshipping the creatures behave. Do they try to just burn candles and chant hymns in a cathedral somewhere off to the side without hurting others (Neutral), or do they try to capture people for human sacrifices (Evil). Even if the Cthulhus themselves were Neutral, the people worshipping them could easily be Evil.

More like, "They kill, corrupt or drive mad other sentients just by their very nature and presence, often without even noticing the other sentients are there."

The Cultists are often blatantly evil, that's certainly true. Also often deluded about what will happen to them, should their plans come to fruition. Of course by that time, they're generally warped and mad anyway.


Rednal wrote:

@Samy: I think you're thinking of Neutral as in "not particularly good or evil". I'm thinking of Neutral here as "does not even have a human-like sense of morality". A major theme in a lot of Lovecraftian works is that the greater eldritch gods are uncaring. In general, they don't even notice mortals, much less maliciously plot to make them suffer. I feel like writing them as evil suggests a degree of morality and intent that a number of stories featuring them don't really have.

Think of them as being closer to, oh, a natural disaster. The wildfire burning down your home doesn't hate you, really - it is what it is, and if you don't have the tools to fight it, all you can do is get out of the way and try to survive. And if you have the right tools - rituals, the Elder Sign, etc. - you might even be able to direct their power in useful ways, such as when we intentionally burn down areas to help fight other fires. Speaking personally (and I know others might prefer something else!), I would enjoy a Lovecraftian AP much more if this alien neutrality were a major underlying theme.

I definitely see what you're getting at, but several Great Old Ones already have stat blocks in Pathfinder. Cthulhu and Hastur both have Chaotic Evil alignments, while Bokrug has an aliment of Chaotic Neutral.

I wonder if this campaign will use the Mythic system. That would run very much at odds with the traditional Lovecraft stories...

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Well, we know JJ is a huge Lovecraft buff, so if that's the sort of thing that happens in Lovecraft stories, then I'm sure he'll slip it in. I'd expect stuff to be pretty faithful considering how much he seems to love that material.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Adam, any chance there will be Mtgic Hooks in it?

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Mythic. I can't type lol


@Kudaku: Indeed they do - that's what I'm sad about. It's also worth noting that Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth - generally regarded to be among the most powerful members of that pantheon, and possibly even its leaders - are Chaotic Neutral. So it's not really personal if they're making your brain explode.


If they are going for a lovecraftian feel then I doubt the players will get mythic power...except maybe the final battle.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

And Rednal, the Cthulhu creatures view Golarion as alien and primitive. Great subjects to experiment on and learn about.


any ideas when we will get some sort of offical announcement online?

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
thejeff wrote:
More like, "They kill, corrupt or drive mad other sentients just by their very nature and presence, often without even noticing the other sentients are there."

That's an interesting dilemma, at which point does that become Evil?

If I carry a contagious disease, and go around people with it, not caring that I'm infecting and/or killing them with just my presence, I'd say that makes me Evil.

But if I am unable to perceive them? Say, I'm unconscious? Lying in a coma, for example. I would say that at that point, it would not be an Evil act just to lie there vegetative and infect/kill people. Or bacteria inside me that I am unable to perceive. Killing bacteria inside me, I would consider that a Neutral act as well.

Ants? Is stepping on ants an Evil act? I would say that not paying attention to them and walking around and smooshing them without thinking isn't Evil, but if you paused to look at them and then intentionally stepped on some, that might be. Doing the same to a dog certainly would be, IMO.

So I guess it depends on what level humans are compared to them. If we're on a bacteria level, I can see the Neutral argument. If we're on a dog level, I don't think I'd buy it.

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I agree Dragon. But, if AP 5 of 6 and 6 of 6 can lead into it, that could be fun


Rednal wrote:
@Kudaku: Indeed they do - that's what I'm sad about. It's also worth noting that Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth - generally regarded to be among the most powerful members of that pantheon, and possibly even its leaders - are Chaotic Neutral. So it's not really personal if they're making your brain explode.

Oh, cool! I checked Inner Sea Gods but I couldn't find Azathoth or Yog mentioned in the deity appendix. What book are they covered in? :)

The Exchange

Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

They are in there and Bestiary 3 and 4


Rednal wrote:

@Samy: I usually have a few more nuances than that. For example, the Paladins trying to retake the Worldwound are sentient creatures who go out to kill other sentient creatures (Demons! And other stuff!) to advance their own cause, but most people seem to be in agreement on who's good and who's evil there. XD I usually ask why people are doing something - though you're right in that low-level cultists trend towards evil for lovecraftian deities, which I think is rather unfortunate.

I'd be very happy if at least some of those cultists could be portrayed as non-evil - or even beneficial to the party. For example, "OUR tentacled overlord isn't too happy about what's going on, and told us to help you by teaching you this ritual to help seal off their tentacled overlord...".

Not so much that I'd suspect. The tentacled overlords don't work like that. You might get cultists in conflict with other cults, but not so much at the direction of the overlords.

What's more likely for non-evil cultists is well-intentioned, but insanely dangerous ones. There was a CoC short adventure years ago that involved a physicist summoning some extraterrestrial creature to discuss physics with it. He was learning great secrets and making scientific advances, but also being driven crazy. In the end, if the characters didn't stop him, he'd wind up flipping out enough to do something horribly destructive. That led to a lot of great debate and moral argument in our group, since he wasn't evil, he wasn't doing anything really wrong, he had no bad intentions and yet he had to be stopped.
In the end, we killed him.

Silver Crusade Contributor

In addition, a more in-depth look at the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones can be found in Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher. ^_^


Well i for one an ecstatic, so many tasty brains, so delicious.....


An entire lovecraft AP? Not my cup of tea, I'm probably the only creature that doesn't like his stories and monsters.

Skipping this one, lots of skipping lately...

Wonder what's going to end up in the bestiaries, as most lovecraft stuff is already covered in the bestiaries, probably another bunch of robots, SF monsters and aliens with multiple tentacles, eyes and brains, but I hope i'm wrong and there will be mythology monsters and other monsters such as kytons and stuff, then I will buy them for the bestiaries only. I really don't like these theme-bestiaries... In the early days EVERYTHING went and monsters were randomized.


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The truth is out there.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

*sigh* give it a rest Mulder, we're already renewed for a new season.

The Exchange

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Kalindlara wrote:
In addition, a more in-depth look at the Outer Gods and Great Old Ones can be found in Pathfinder Adventure Path #46: Wake of the Watcher. ^_^

I liked that one a lot (#46) and we just finished it (I ran my group through it and the path).


Actually, I just realized that there might be a better way to describe my feelings. Not too long ago, I was reading a thread about alignments and worshiping deities, and it was pointed out that if your alignment is too different from your deity's, you're not really worshiping them or aligning yourself with their ideals in a meaningful way.

Since we do have neutral Lovecraftian deities, it would be very strange if all - or even most - of those deities' worshipers were evil... and I don't think it would make sense to write adventures that way, either.

To see how this works from the other side, let's say that Wrath of the Righteous - starring Iomedae - had you meet a bunch of Iomedaean clerics throughout all six books... all of whom were LN. It might not be odd to find one or two that are neutral - especially if they're presented as having 'lost their way' - but it would be pretty weird for all of them to be that way. XD If you have characters that follow a LG deity, you generally expect them to be LG themselves - and what I'm asking is for that to be broadly true regardless of alignment.

Basically, I don't want Lovecraftian stuff to be "like fighting demons and their cultists, but with more tentacles". I want it to have a distinct feel of Otherness - that their methods, ideas, and goals are different from your run-of-the-mill evil bad guys.

(And before anyone points out - again - that there are canonically CE Lovecraftian beings, I know there are. But there are also ones that aren't evil. And if new ones are introduced, I hope they will also not be evil. Essentially, I'd like for the evil ones to be considered outliers, not representative of how most of the Old Ones are.)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber
Rednal wrote:
Not too long ago, I was reading a thread about alignments and worshiping deities, and it was pointed out that if your alignment is too different from your deity's, you're not really worshiping them or aligning yourself with their ideals in a meaningful way.

That was an opinion -- and one which I personally disagree with very strongly -- not any sort of set in stone rule. An example is the elemental lords which are Neutral Evil. It's asinine that you couldn't have a Good water worshipper.

Quote:
Since we do have neutral Lovecraftian deities, it would be very strange if all - or even most - of those deities' worshipers were evil

We don't even need to have neutral Lovecraftian deities. CN is still only one step removed from CE, so it's perfectly reasonable for Neutral characters to be worshipping Cthulhu.


I think there's a difference between "I worship water" (which is arguably just worship of Gozreh, or even simple veneration of nature - hey, it works for Druids, right?), and "I worship an outright evil entity of water and seek to advance its goals in return for power". XD

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Sure, but that was just a shortcut. Point is I don't buy the premise.

Another example: you can't be Lawful and follow Cayden Cailean? Just because you like booze means you can't be in favor of organized society? Makes no sense, since organized society is the whole foundation of institutions like inns and taverns! Or is it supposedly because of 'freedom' in his portfolio? Paladins never defend freedom after all!


Justin Franklin wrote:

During the Adventure Path Q&A seminar, The Strange Eons Adventure Path was announced! This will follow the Hell’s Vengeance AP and will be available August, 2016.

This will be a very Lovecraftian themed AP. Focusing on the Old gods.

Will have amnesiac players.
Will involve a lot of travel.
Dreamlands may be explored, meeting famous authors of books, such as the necronomicon, etc…

Back matter will have a lot of lovecraftian details.
Will explore new continents in Golarion!

*asplodes* I will re-subscribe for this one.


Well, I think it also depends on how far apart characters could be.

To go back to Iomedae, let's say that we have a cleric who's more focused on "doing good" than "upholding law", and is NG as a result. Maybe they rely on the Paladins to do the whole enforcement bit - it's not that strange to have different opinions and emphasize different things, so most GMs would probably accept this.

It might be a little more strange to have a TN worshiper. If they don't support Law or Good, it's hard to say that their overall outlook on life really matches that deity. Personally, I feel like a character at this point would be closer to 'going through the motions' than truly believing in that deity - although they could be in the midst of a personal change, and passing through TN as a stepping point to become more lawful and/or good. It's not impossible to have strong beliefs even when your alignments don't match.

So... I don't think player alignments need to perfectly align with their deity's, but the further away you go, the less sense it makes for them to worship that deity instead of someone whose ideals and outlook are closer to their own. If they're too far away, I figure characters should be intentionally moving towards their deity's alignment or have a good explanation for what's going on. (That last bit will trump almost anything in my games. XD If they can come up with a legitimately good explanation for what's going on, I'd probably accept it - and ask them to RP it on a regular basis.)


Aaaaaaaaand that's it for me. Looks like Hell's Rebels will be my last AP. It's been a good run and I was running out of shelf space anyway. Not interested in an evil AP and definitely not interested in a Lovecraftian one. Good news for those who are though. Enjoy!

Liberty's Edge

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Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

How do you know it'll be the last one? How can you be sure that 2017 or 2018 (or 2019 or 2020 or 2021...) won't hold your dream AP?

I totally understand taking breaks and skipping APs -- didn't get WotR or Giantslayer myself. But to claim 'last' makes me wonder if you're dealing with some serious cancer or something and don't expect to live more than 1-2 more years? :(


I am intrigued on who is going to be picked for the diety articles...Part of me wants the Golarion specific Old Ones (Mhar, etc).

Also wondering what continents might be explored. Sarusan would sort of fit into Dreamlands type stuff, but I could also see Garund and Arcadia. Admittably I want Sarusan because it's a good excuse to stat up a lot of Aussie monsters.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Personally I would expect the usual suspects -- Garund, Casmaron and Tian Xia. Distant Shores may offer hints of where they are starting to explore.


Samy wrote:

How do you know it'll be the last one? How can you be sure that 2017 or 2018 (or 2019 or 2020 or 2021...) won't hold your dream AP?

I totally understand taking breaks and skipping APs -- didn't get WotR or Giantslayer myself. But to claim 'last' makes me wonder if you're dealing with some serious cancer or something and don't expect to live more than 1-2 more years? :(

LOL.

I know it's my last because it's in my nature to walk away from things and not really look back. I dont know if youre into comics at all but when DC decided to abandon their old continuity and go New 52 that was my jumping off point. Even after reading DC comics for over 30 years. It was just time for me to walk away. And I havent been back since. I've been an AP subscriber since the beginning and while there have been several AP's that havent really interested me (Legacy of Fire, Skulls and Shackles, Serpent's Skull and Iron Gods) none of them have been AP's that I can honestly say that I have NO interest in running or using in any capacity.

Hell's Vengeance and now Strange Eons back to back? No interest in running or playing an Evil AP and a full on Lovecraftian AP? No thanks. And with that it's a jumping off point for me with the AP's. I already have enough of them (17 after Hell's Rebels by my shelf count) to choke a donkey. That coupled with a bunch of 3rd party mega adventures that I'd eventually like to run (Slumbering Tsar and Rappan Athuk)? Yeah I think it's totally time to stop and two AP's with themes and subjects that I actively DO NOT LIKE is the perfect opportunity to walk away.


ShinHakkaider wrote:
I know it's my last because it's in my nature to walk away from things and not really look back. I dont know if youre into comics at all but when DC decided to abandon their old continuity and go New 52 that was my jumping off point. Even after reading DC comics for over 30 years. It was just time for me to walk away. And I havent been back since.

Funny you should mention that, because I did pretty much the same thing, until...

Just a few minutes ago, I read Convergence: Superman, in which Dan Jurgens brings back the Pre-Crisis Supes.

I found myself crying no-kidding tears of joy. :)

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

Okay, yeah, I totally understand if you're feeling in general that it's time to wrap things up. Comics are a perfect analogy; I've been cutting down my own buying there in the past five years or so to a point where I will only buy a book if it rates AAA+++ on the interest scale, because I'm drowning as it is. Yeah, there definitely comes a point when you don't *NEED* any more.

I'm kind of afraid of cracking open the Convergence issues I got because it would be sort of like breaking my heart. ;b


Rednal wrote:
(And before anyone points out - again - that there are canonically CE Lovecraftian beings, I know there are. But there are also ones that aren't evil. And if new ones are introduced, I hope they will also not be evil. Essentially, I'd like for the evil ones to be considered outliers, not representative of how most of the Old Ones are.)

There is a 3rd Tier Universal Path Ability in Mythic Adventures called Beyond Morality that effectively removes any alignment from the individual. Whenever someone tries to use an alignment-based spell or effect against someone with Beyond Morality, it treats the individual as though they were the most favorable alignment. One might interpret this to mean that such a person would be immune to things like a Paladin's smite ability, for instance.

It might be worth it to you to turn this ability into a feat in which to give to all mythos monsters and Great Old Ones so that their alignments aren't necessarily a detriment to them. Instead, these unthinkable creatures are simply beyond any type of common morality that exists in the world.

Just a thought!


I can accept the vast majoriy of Great Old Ones and Outer Gods as Chaotic Evil - they aren't stupid. They know the "lesser races" are sapient people. Nyarlathotep especially.

And they still want to engage in xenocide against the rest of the multiverse.

Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth are rather incompatible with non-aberrant mortal life, but they aren't actively hostile.

Their compatriots are outright hostile, and view the "lesser races" as an infestation to feed upon and/or destroy.

There's a lot of overlap between the Great Old Ones and the Qlippoths.

I wonder if the Qlippoths were the Great Old Ones of their original reality.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Samy wrote:
Rednal wrote:
Not too long ago, I was reading a thread about alignments and worshiping deities, and it was pointed out that if your alignment is too different from your deity's, you're not really worshiping them or aligning yourself with their ideals in a meaningful way.
That was an opinion -- and one which I personally disagree with very strongly -- not any sort of set in stone rule. An example is the elemental lords which are Neutral Evil. It's asinine that you couldn't have a Good water worshipper.

Just a note on this: it's not that the very concept of those elements are evil. There were once Good Elemental Lords as well, but the Evil Elemental Lords allied and entrapped each of their rivals. You can learn more in Artifacts & Legends, in the section on the Moaning Diamond.

So, once upon a time, you could have worshipped Lysianassa, Empress of the Torrent. But as long as she's imprisoned in the Garnet Brand (if that is truly its name), she can grant you no power.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Zhangar wrote:

I can accept the vast majoriy of Great Old Ones and Outer Gods as Chaotic Evil - they aren't stupid. They know the "lesser races" are sapient people. Nyarlathotep especially.

And they still want to engage in xenocide against the rest of the multiverse.

Azathoth and Yog-Sothoth are rather incompatible with non-aberrant mortal life, but they aren't actively hostile.

Their compatriots are outright hostile, and view the "lesser races" as an infestation to feed upon and/or destroy.

There's a lot of overlap between the Great Old Ones and the Qlippoths.

I wonder if the Qlippoths were the Great Old Ones of their original reality.

This is why I'm reluctant to really call a lot of how the Lovecraftian stuff is commonly used as truly "alien", "indifferent", or "beyond morality". Stuff like hunger, exploitation, and xenophobia are pretty human (or at least terrestrial). And for creatures that are supposedly indifferent to humanity, these alien beings seem to truly have a perchance for eating us, extracting our brains, or just generally coming in and wrecking the joint.

A lot of the time it seems to me that supposedly alien beings are just another kind of Bug Eyed Monsters, albeit with a different motivation of eating you, driving you insane, etc. And the motivation can be largely academic in play.

I'll be waiting to see how Paizo plays this one out though. I hope they provide some foundation for ideas to make the aberrations act and think different from other threats.


...huh, what'll the current year be on Pathfinder Earth? It'd be hilarious to have the PCs stow away on the Alert on March 23, 1925, and be the real reason a boat was enough to send the big C back to sleep.

Silver Crusade Contributor

Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
...huh, what'll the current year be on Pathfinder Earth? It'd be hilarious to have the PCs stow away on the Alert on March 23, 1925, and be the real reason a boat was enough to send the big C back to sleep.

I believe we're still a few years out, based on Rasputin Must Die!.


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Really excited about this announcement!

Obviously will have to play an investigator! Have being eying that class for a while now.

Perfect opportunity to play one

Silver Crusade Contributor

Ral' Yareth wrote:

Really excited about this announcement!

Obviously will have to play an investigator! Have being eying that class for a while now.

Perfect opportunity to play one

Have you seen the psychic detective archetype yet?


Kalindlara wrote:
Evil Midnight Lurker wrote:
...huh, what'll the current year be on Pathfinder Earth? It'd be hilarious to have the PCs stow away on the Alert on March 23, 1925, and be the real reason a boat was enough to send the big C back to sleep.
I believe we're still a few years out, based on Rasputin Must Die!.

It's not that far off, if we go by Rasputin's timeline, this AP would start in 1921 earth, at the least it would certainly be a nice addition to the continuing the campaign article at the end:-)


Kalindlara wrote:
Ral' Yareth wrote:

Really excited about this announcement!

Obviously will have to play an investigator! Have being eying that class for a while now.

Perfect opportunity to play one

Have you seen the psychic detective archetype yet?

Not yet! Is it from the occult adventures book? Sounds incredibly appropriate for what I have in mind!

Silver Crusade Contributor

Ral' Yareth wrote:
Kalindlara wrote:
Ral' Yareth wrote:

Really excited about this announcement!

Obviously will have to play an investigator! Have being eying that class for a while now.

Perfect opportunity to play one

Have you seen the psychic detective archetype yet?
Not yet! Is it from the occult adventures book? Sounds incredibly appropriate for what I have in mind!

Indeed! Important: It replaces the alchemy/extracts with psychic spells, which might be a bit extreme for some.

I'm interested in seeing it in action.


Title is Strange Aeons . . . wonder if this AP will have any actual Aeons (Outsider Subtype) in it?


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Huh, I wonder what the new AP is? Better go check...

...

... you do love me, Paizo! You do! It's true love ladies, gentlemen and others! It's true love!

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