Sacred Fist change from Full BAB to 3 / 4 BAB - help understanding


Rules Questions

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graystone wrote:
You only have so much fervor. No matter how "miniscule" each use is, if you never get to use it for anything else, it's just full BAB disguised as something else. Not exciting...

Even assuming that the only thing you ever use your Fervor for was self-buffing, you've still got several other class features, a stock of highly exploitable special bonus feats, and several levels of spellcasting.

As far as TWF goes, the old, cheesy, endlessly-debated armored pummeling style business is, as I said before, completely different from exploiting a stack of Warpriest bonus feats with their other features.

I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package. I could take the Inquisitor and say 'oh great, judgements, now I'm sort of making up for being 3/4 BAB, not exciting'.

Sovereign Court

BadBird wrote:


I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package.

Because... internet.


Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:


I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package.
Because... internet.

Barbird's mistake is thinking that we aren't looking at the whole package when we say 'meh...'. I disagreed on whatever parts where brought up, often individually. I've looked at it all; I just came to a different conclusion than he did.

Scarab Sages

graystone wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:


I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package.
Because... internet.
Barbird's mistake is thinking that we aren't looking at the whole package when we say 'meh...'. I disagreed on whatever parts where brought up, often individually. I've looked at it all; I just came to a different conclusion than he did.

I'm not dismissing your point of view, but did you come to that conclusion via actual play or through theroy-crafting?

I was more effectve than I expected with the warpriest in play.


Imbicatus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:


I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package.
Because... internet.
Barbird's mistake is thinking that we aren't looking at the whole package when we say 'meh...'. I disagreed on whatever parts where brought up, often individually. I've looked at it all; I just came to a different conclusion than he did.

I'm not dismissing your point of view, but did you come to that conclusion via actual play or through theroy-crafting?

I was more effectve than I expected with the warpriest in play.

I don't want to invest myself in playing a character, potentially for months or years, who doesn't look fun on paper.

Because in a game where the entire mechanical aspect is written down on paper, I don't really need to play it to see what it would play like.


Imbicatus wrote:
graystone wrote:
Charon's Little Helper wrote:
BadBird wrote:


I don't get why people who dump on the Warpriest never seem to consider the Warpriest's abilities as a total combined package.
Because... internet.
Barbird's mistake is thinking that we aren't looking at the whole package when we say 'meh...'. I disagreed on whatever parts where brought up, often individually. I've looked at it all; I just came to a different conclusion than he did.

I'm not dismissing your point of view, but did you come to that conclusion via actual play or through theroy-crafting?

I was more effectve than I expected with the warpriest in play.

As I said above, I played a pre-nerf sacred fist and it was in line with the other characters. With the nerfs, I'd say I would have underperformed. I can't imagine that other warpriest varieties would have faired much differently.

And I wasn't really directing that post to you Imbicatus. I'd already said you might be on to something with weapon of the chosen/vital strikes. It might work, it wouldn't be an arrangement I'd normally play. I'm mainly disagreeing with Barbird's idea that those that don't love the class just haven't looked at the "total combined package".


@Melkiador:

I'm currently working on a book of uses for and alternative access to Fervor as well as a few Warpriest archetypes, and I'm curious what you meant by this:

Melkiador wrote:
I want a lot of small changes for the warpriest, but the obvious thing it should have had was being able to use fervor for spells on its equipped equipment.

* What are the other small changes you would like to see for the Warpriest? How would you make the class less MAD?

I'd be happy to give full credit to you (or any one else - Rynjin, Secret Wizard?) for any ideas.


Fervor spells can only target the Warpriest, not his equipment. Thus Aid is a valid Fervor spell, but Weapon of Awe is not. It's a minor (but rather dumb) issue that was pointed out in the play test, but never fixed.

I'm about to go to sleep so I'll end this post here, but I'd be happy to discuss some Warpriest fixes later. ☺

Edit: in the meantime,I'll just link to a previous post. I outlined some of the suggestions to help out the Warpriest here.


Kudaku wrote:

Fervor spells can only target the Warpriest, not his equipment. Thus Aid is a valid Fervor spell, but Weapon of Awe is not. It's a minor (but rather dumb) issue that was pointed out in the play test, but never fixed.

I'm about to go to sleep so I'll end this post here, but I'd be happy to discuss some Warpriest fixes later. ☺

Edit: in the meantime,I'll just link to a previous post. I outlined some of the suggestions to help out the Warpriest here.

Thanks Kudaku, nice post you linked there. I think Christos Gurd was talking about the Inquisition/Domain thing for Blessings too. Having played a Warpriest, I basically ignore my blessings, they look pretty blah...

The Skills thing is an easy fix.


An issue I'm surprised wasn't addressed in the errata was how wildly the blessings vary in power. The summoning ones basically out perform everything else. While other blessings merely duplicate low level spell effects.

The magic lesser blessing is fun if you combine it with quicken blessing. It basically gives you an extra attack at your highest attack bonus.

Shadow Lodge

Forest Guardian Press wrote:

@Melkiador:

I'm currently working on a book of uses for and alternative access to Fervor as well as a few Warpriest archetypes, and I'm curious what you meant by this:

Melkiador wrote:
I want a lot of small changes for the warpriest, but the obvious thing it should have had was being able to use fervor for spells on its equipped equipment.
* What are the other small changes you would like to see for the Warpriest? How would you make the class less MAD?

I'm very tempted to drop Channel Energy entirely. For Negative Energy, it's just no where near keeping up to be that worth it, and for Positive Energy, well the class pretty much screams "I am not a damn healer".

Something that would be pretty cool and totally in flavor with the hybrid class would be to maybe use Fervor to gain temporary access to Fighter Armor Mastery, say for a minute per use.

Another possibility, as Paizo basically outright ignored all feedback on the class it seems, might be to use Fervor treat a single Skill as both Trained and having 1/2 Ranks in it for a single Skill Check.

The class itself is not terribly MAD anymore, it's not SAD, but it's not the Cleric or Monk, either, and probably about the area (in my opinion) all classes should be. It had basically 3 main desired stats (Str, Con, and Wis), 1 secondary stat (Dex), and 2 stats that would be nice, but are not required (Int and Cha). <subject to change based on build>. All but Dex it can self-buff, too, and it's probably not going to really need that high of a Dex all in all.

I'd say that the number one problem with the class is that it actually works very counter to the flavor it has. It's supposed to be a badass Cleric/Fighter, but mechanically, it actually functions best by going the completely opposite route as the normal Fighter and focusing on weapons that are normally sub-par. So it boosts the ability to be a warrior-priest of NOT battle deities while doesn't really do anything for followers of those that are, which is really messed-up logic.

So the number one thing I would change is that is Sacred Weapon damage does not affect your weapon, (such as a Greatsword), you instead get another benefit automatically. This would still allow Kukri or Whip Warpriests to play as is, but would not basically rob the other Warpriests of something cool. Possible examples might be that if your Sacred Weapon does not get any increase to Damage, it is instead treated as a Magic Weapon of +1 higher than normal, (with more Hardness, HP, etc. . ., even breaking the normal +5 max, though it is not counted as an "Epic Weapon").


Oceanshieldwolf wrote:
Kudaku wrote:

Fervor spells can only target the Warpriest, not his equipment. Thus Aid is a valid Fervor spell, but Weapon of Awe is not. It's a minor (but rather dumb) issue that was pointed out in the play test, but never fixed.

I'm about to go to sleep so I'll end this post here, but I'd be happy to discuss some Warpriest fixes later. ☺

Edit: in the meantime,I'll just link to a previous post. I outlined some of the suggestions to help out the Warpriest here.

Thanks Kudaku, nice post you linked there. I think Christos Gurd was talking about the Inquisition/Domain thing for Blessings too. Having played a Warpriest, I basically ignore my blessings, they look pretty blah...

The Skills thing is an easy fix.

Thanks! Just to be clear I really can't claim credit for the suggestions in that thread. The suggestions I outline are an amalgamation of reading thousands of posts in both playtests, long discussions with Undone and various other posters after the ACG was released, as well as frequent talks with the players who tried out the Warpriest at my table.


graystone wrote:
Barbird's mistake is thinking that we aren't looking at the whole package when we say 'meh...'.

I was commenting on statements along the lines of "So I can spend my spells, Fervor and feats so I can be a fighter?" that would seem to imply that there's nothing going on with the Warpriest other than trying to play catch-up to a martial. If you feel that I'm being unfair, I apologize. Anyhow, I doubt there's a lot of purpose to going around and around with it.

As far as the full-BAB Sacred Fist nerf goes, I think it probably just came out of the overall numbers pattern of what the Sacred Fist could do. Compare how things now stack up by mid level between a Sacred Fist of Gorum who goes into greatsword use and a generic Barbarian (yes, it's just a generic Barbarian; this is for basic martial comparison, not who's-better-optimization-wars).

Assuming same base 20STR +4STR Belt with a +2 greatsword at level 9, and leaving out Blessings/Powers:

Barbarian Damage: 2d6+2 +13STR +2weapon +9Power = 33.
Barbarian Attack: 9BAB +9STR +2weapon +1focus -3Power = 18AB.
Sacred Fist Damage: 2d6+2 +7STR +2weapon +6Power +4Favor = 28.
Sacred Fist Attack: 6BAB +7STR +2weapon +1focus +4Favor -2Power -2Flurry = 16AB.

The Barbarian has about 18% more damage and 2 higher AB. The Sacred Fist has 2 or potentially even 3 more attacks from flurry of blows. Now, against a CR9 AC of 23, both using a haste effect:

Barbarian: .80/.65/(.80) = 2.25x33 = 74.25.
Sacred Fist: .70/.70/.45/.45/(.70)/(.70)Ki = 3.7x28 = 103.6.

Of course, there are many things the Barbarian can add with rage powers and a few benefits the Sacred Fist can grab from Blessings, not every full attack is going to involve Ki, and so on. Still though, by simple base-line numbers the Sacred Fist is delivering a massive beating with the new no-full-BAB flurry.

Adjusting for pre-nerf, the Sacred Fist would be adding +2AB and +3damage to every single strike, bringing their full-attack up to 133.3, or around 80% more average damage with an all-out full attack than the generic Barbarian. I think Paizo doesn't like those relative numbers.


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Comparing "generic Barbarian" to "buffed archetype of Warpriest using a very limited resource he only receives starting at 7th level" is a bit of a disingenuous comparison.


Rynjin wrote:

Comparing "generic Barbarian" to "buffed archetype of Warpriest using a very limited resource he only receives starting at 7th level as a comparison point" is a bit of a disingenuous comparison.

Pretty much this. My pre nerf sacred fist w/ pre nerf pummeling was average when our barbarian was above average. Making it a post nerf one... I'm having a hard time taking your numbers seriously.


Rynjin wrote:
Comparing "generic Barbarian" to "buffed archetype of Warpriest using a very limited resource he only receives starting at 7th level" is a bit of a disingenuous comparison.

I was using a generic greatsword Barbarian because it's an effective martial benchmark for gauging melee ability, and the kind of thing probably used as a benchmark for design. I'm comparing it to a "buffed archetype" because the Sacred Fist is the entire issue in question here, and a Sacred Fist buffing with Divine Favor is as likely as a Barbarian using Rage. I left out Blessings like Strength or Destruction along with leaving out Rage Powers.

Optimizing the Barbarian will push back hard; Blessings on the Sacred Fist can do quite a bit. Regardless, my purpose was to demonstrate how competitive baseline 2-hand Sacred Fist is post-nerf, to suggest why Paizo may have balked at the consequences of full-BAB flurry + Divine.

If throwing out Ki, the post-nerf numbers above drop to 84 on the Sacred Fist vs. 74.25 on the Barbarian. If you also toss out haste effect, the numbers are 64.4 Sacred Fist vs. 47.85 Barbarian. The Barbarian's Charge/Standard is always marginally stronger.

graystone wrote:
I'm having a hard time taking your numbers seriously.

I'm not sure what to say to that other than that the methods for arriving at those numbers are all laid out above, so you can check them if you like. Greatsword Power-Flurry is a mean business. The Sacred Fist in question is 1.Greatsword Proficiency, 3.Weapon Focus, 5.Crusader's Flurry, FCB6/7.Power Attack.

Also, I'm not sure exactly how Unarmed Strike would stack up now or post-nerf; I wanted to keep the comparison more streamlined with identical weapons, and unarmed flurry tends to bore me anyways.


There's also a few other problems with your comparison BTW:

1.) TWFing numbers generally do look a lot better in a vacuum (before things like DR come into play in real gameplay especially when you're an unarmed user).

2.) It's a bit of an odd level for a comparison point. 9th level is when the Barbarian (and other full BaB 2H users) are between one massive spike in power and close to achieving another (11th level 3rd iterative attacks), while conversely Flurry has just received a major upswing the level before, and Divine Favor just maxed out (at +3, now I think of it, not +4).

3.) Again, you're running "generic Barbarian" up against "Optimized Warpriest". Of course the latter is going to come out looking pretty.

Nobody looks at Monks Flurrying with Greatswords because they dipped a level of Cleric and took a special Feat to determine how strong the Monk class is, because that's a weird corner case to be looking at as far as the class as a whole goes. If you want it to be a proper comparison, it should be with unarmed attacks, because that's where the hit REALLY comes in with the full BaB vs 34 BaB thing. If it must be weapon vs weapon, a "generic" comparison would be using a Temple Sword at best.


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Rynjin wrote:
There's also a few other problems with your comparison BTW:

The sole purpose of the comparison was to say:

"This is what a Sacred Fist can do with a greatsword with just the post-nerf 3/4BAB flurry plus Divine Favor. This is how well it stacks up against a baseline Barbarian with a greatsword. Considering these numbers against both the numbers pre-nerf full-BAB flurry would produce and a melee benchmark build, the decision to nerf may make more sense."

It's a rough design comparison, not an 'X class is better than Y' DPR battle. We could adjust the dice of the weapon in question or throw out Fate's Favored or whatever else, but it's not going to change the basic fact that the buffed 3/4 flurry still packs real damage and the full-BAB version was very strong.

As far as level goes, I chose 9 because the Sacred Fist has just gained a point of Favor but lost a point of BAB, there's still a difference in Power Attack values, there's no possibility of Divine Power for the Sacred Fist yet, and both builds have well hit their stride. If you want to re-work the numbers at another level go right ahead, though the 2-to-1 for Sacred Fist unarmed leading up to 5 and then the iterative vs. none from 5-7 tend to skew one way and then the other.

For that matter, if you want to re-work the numbers with Dragon Style unarmed strikes by all means do so. I don't imagine it will come out radically different with lower Power Attack numbers.

Edit: Come to think of it, no Dragon Ferocity for the non-dipping Sacred Fist. Maybe Monk's Robe though.


BadBird is the reason why I can go to bed every night, knowing the forums will be okay.


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And, like I said, it's a bad benchmark.

Optimized X vs non-optimized Y does not set a valid Benchmark. I could just as easily say if they nerfed Power Attack that a 10 Str 10 Dex Fighter who uses Improvised Weapons was WAAY outdone by a 2H Greatsword using Fighter...therefore that sheds light on why they might have nerfed it. It's a meaningless comparison.


Rynjin wrote:

And, like I said, it's a bad benchmark.

Optimized X vs non-optimized Y does not set a valid Benchmark. I could just as easily say if they nerfed Power Attack that a 10 Str 10 Dex Fighter who uses Improvised Weapons was WAAY outdone by a 2H Greatsword using Fighter...therefore that sheds light on why they might have nerfed it. It's a meaningless comparison.

Give me an Inquisitor build level 12, any core race, 2 traits, PC WBL, assume Fate's Favored is banned.


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Considering Bird's comparison included Fate's Favored on his Sacred Fist writeup, the comparison would be more relevant if the trait is legal.


Kudaku wrote:
Considering Bird's comparison included Fate's Favored on his Sacred Fist writeup, the comparison would be more relevant if the trait is legal.

Just simplifying things, I assume that his Inquisitor is going to have Fate's Favored too, might as well even out the equation.


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Even if a Warpriest just manages to edge out slightly ahead of an Inquisitor, does it actually matter?

You sacrificed how much out of combat viability just to beat an Inquisitor on DPR?


Secret Wizard wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

And, like I said, it's a bad benchmark.

Optimized X vs non-optimized Y does not set a valid Benchmark. I could just as easily say if they nerfed Power Attack that a 10 Str 10 Dex Fighter who uses Improvised Weapons was WAAY outdone by a 2H Greatsword using Fighter...therefore that sheds light on why they might have nerfed it. It's a meaningless comparison.

Give me an Inquisitor build level 12.

Sure. I imagine damage output will be a mite below the Warpriest though. My main love of the Inquisitor comes from how much utility it gets (while not skimping n the attack/damage).

20 PB, level 12. Human only for baseline comparison. Melee based. Call him a Sarenite, uses a Scimitar unless you wanted to stick with Greatswords, simple build. Preacher archetype because I hate Teamwork feats, and it's a solo comparison anyway.

Str: 25
Dex: 16
Con: 14
Int: 12
Wis: 20
Cha: 7

Feats:

1.) Improved Monster Lore
Human Bonus: Toughness
3.) Power Attack
5.) Extended Bane
7.) Weapon Focus
9.) Improved Critical
11.) Judgement Surge

Domain: Healing

Skills: Irrelevant for our purposes, but 7/level

Gear: +4 Str/+4 Dex belt (40k), +3 Scimitar (18k), +3 Mithral Breastplate (13k), Headband of Inspired Wisdom +4 (16k), Amulet of Natural Armor +2 (8k), Ring of Protection +2 (8k), Jingasa (5k),

Spells: Shield of Faith, Divine Favor, Bloodhound, See Invisibility, Weapon of Awe, Countless Eyes, Heroism, Freedom of Movement, Greater Invisibility, Death Ward,

Attack bonus (Unbuffed): +17/+12
Damage Bonus (Unbuffed): 1d6+22 (15-20/x2)

Attack Bonus (Buffed with Heroism, Bane, and Justice Judgement): +24/+19 (Judgement Surge would add 1 more)

Damage Bonus (Buffed with Bane, Weapon of Awe, and Destruction Judgement): 5d6+31 (Judgement Surge would add 1 more) average 48.5

DPR vs AC 27 (Buffed, because I dun wanna do math twice): 90.94 (no Judgement Surge, it's 1/day so I don't figure on factoring it into normal DPR).

.85*48.5+.25*1*.85*48.5 = 51.53

Edit: Whoops, forgot Divine Favor. BRB.

Divine Favored DPR: +27/+22 to-hit, 51.5 damage.

59.87+48.28 = 108.15 DPR


Build illegal. Improved Critical requires BAB 8 and you dont have that till level 11. Though if you swap it with Judgement surge that's not a problem.

Also you forgot human bonus skill point, so 8 per level


Ah right. Doesn't matter since it just needs some swappin'.


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Though I do say that I would love to have that guy on my party. He can support the group and function solo. A warpriest would be good DPR, but would be a drag on resources like a Fighter.

Conversion Inquisition so you can social skills or Chivalry so you can have a Horse? (A horse is nice because it gives you +1 on attack vs medium foes and it's badass)

Or a different useful inquisition? I don't think Sarenrae has the feather Subdomain.

Edit: Just noticed you were healing domain. Why? You don't get Domain spells and the domain powers for that are pretty low utility.


I just picked a random Domain since I don't know Sarenrae's very well. And I like Empowered healing.

The Heroism Domain is pretty rad though. Conversion is great too, though most of the skill points here would be maxing Knowledge skills.


I'm personally a fan of this inquisition even for a non-lance build.

-Free mount
-has light armor proficiency, so you can just get him a cheap set of armor
-You dont take ACP to ride checks
-Cancels out your 20 speed
-Mount can benefit from Judgement at level 8
-High ground bonus vs medium creatures

Don't really need to invest much to make it hard to kill and any actions spent attacking your horse instead of you is nice


Please understand that as far as 'generic Barbarian' goes, it's just a point of reference with the understanding that the numbers grow depending on optimization. It's a Benchmark as by the definition of a standard (rather than optimized) point of comparison.

The Sacred Fist in question was simply swinging a greatsword around while using a practically default buff. The only optimization involved was spending a feat for a weapon upgrade; I left out things like Destruction Blessing.

Rynjin wrote:
Solid Inquisitor Build at 11

The Inquisitor is posting similar numbers to the post-nerf numbers I was getting with my Bathrobe Gorumite; and as Inquisitors are awesome combatants I'd say that's about where it should be. Those pre-nerf numbers where the Sacred Fist is getting full-BAB power attack and such are a little questionable to me balance-wise.

Personally I agree the Inquisitor is generally more interesting than the Sacred Fist; while I love the Warpriest's ability to do all sorts of crazy stuff with all those combat feats and powers, the Sacred Fist for me is just kind of "pick a weapon and flurry it... done" - I don't care for unarmed strike really. Though there's at least some interesting things to do with some metamagic spells or conductive/quickened Blessings or whatever.


See there's the main difference, really: My main concern is whether you can hit anywhere near those same numbers as an Unarmed character. Remember, if you punt Greatsword Flurry down, you punt Unarmed down even further since Unarmed is a lot harder to build and upgrade (just off the bat you're losing, probably, +1 from Enhancement because the AoMF is so expensive, and some of your Str to damage, and at most levels no longer have the 2d6, and a lower crit rate, and so on).

It's throwing out the baby with the bathwater. Hell, simple fix: Change the name of Flurry of Blows to something like "Warpriest's Flurry" and it no longer qualifies for Crusader's Flurry if that was the real problem.


Rynjin wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
Rynjin wrote:

And, like I said, it's a bad benchmark.

Optimized X vs non-optimized Y does not set a valid Benchmark. I could just as easily say if they nerfed Power Attack that a 10 Str 10 Dex Fighter who uses Improvised Weapons was WAAY outdone by a 2H Greatsword using Fighter...therefore that sheds light on why they might have nerfed it. It's a meaningless comparison.

Give me an Inquisitor build level 12.
Sure. I imagine damage output will be a mite below the Warpriest though. My main love of the Inquisitor comes from how much utility it gets (while not skimping n the attack/damage)

Alright, let's do this. I'm usually not prone to use Dexterity builds, but I think the Sacred Fist is better used as a Finesse class due to how difficult it is to use Dragon Style with it (no Stunning Fist, QQ).

Sacred Fist Warpriest

STR 10 / DEX 26 / CON 14 / INT 12 / WIS 20 / CHA 7

Traits: Quain Martial Artist, Martial Manuscript

Feats:

1. Weapon Finesse, Toughness

3. Piranha Strike

5. Weapon Focus

6. Pummeling Style + FCB: Dodge

7. Mobility

9. Combat Reflexes

11. Quicken Blessing (Lore Keeper)

12. Pummeling Charge + Improved Critical

Blessings: Knowledge + Healing (Irori ftw)

What I like about this guy is that even if he has 4 skill points per level (which is fair but not great), is that he can replicate knowledge skills to identify enemies with the Knowledge Blessing, with such a high bonus that he is always assumed to have passed.
Fun facts: with Quicken Blessing, you can use Lore Keeper as a swift action... and you can replace the touch attack with an unarmed strike at full-BAB, so that's pretty sweet.

Prepared spell casting can allow you to prepare yourself to fight any threat.

Anyway, for items:

- Agile Amulet of Mighty Fists
- Headband of Wisdom +4
- Belt of Dex +6
- Cloak of Resistance +4
- Boots of Speed
- Monk's Robe
- Jingasa of the Fortunate Soldier
- Bracers of Armor +2
- 2k extra gold

Defenses Unbuffed
AC: 31 (most of it touch AC, so f$$~ you, scorching ray)
Saves: FORT 14, REF 16, WILL 17
HP: 12d8+36 (average 90, if retraining is allowed you have extra gold to get closer to max)

Offense Unbuffed
Attack: +12/+12/+7/+7
Damage: 2d8+15, 19-20/2x, +2 to critical confirmation

Spells: A whole lot of stuff, prepared to taste... But the important ones are Greater Magic Weapon, Divine Favor, Shield of Faith, Freedom of Movement, Ki Leech...

Here's the offenses when s$#* goes down:

Offense Buffed (using boots of speed, Channel Vigor in case rounds run out, making the extra ki attack - regaining Ki easy with Ki Leech -)
Attack: +18/+18/+18/+18/+13/+13
Damage: 2d8+21, 19-20/2x, +2 to critical confirmation

VS 27 AC: 111 DPR, not including the bonus DPR from Martial Manuscript, and this is with Pummeling Charge goodness going on (i.e. largely ignoring DR and full-attacks every turn). And this will be available for more rounds than your bane, thanks to Channel Vigor. If I ever run out of Ki for some reason, I can use my Lore Keeper blessing to do my swift action touch attack into a swift action unarmed strike.

Dunno, I get you have more skill points than this guy, but I do believe this guy has a ton more AC, great damage, a lot of mobility in Pummeling Charge, and a ton of utility in amazing healing (yey fast healing and empowered spells), plus buffs quickly (yey fervor), AND has the ability to use a swift action for a free unarmed strike that identifies enemies.

EDIT: FORGOT TO ADD THE +2 TO HIT FROM CONSTANTLY CHARGING! Looking at 129 DPR in those cases.

Let me know if you are considered satisfied with this build, so we can move on to explaining to you why the Unchained Monk is leaps and bounds better than you think.


Ehhh, I don't think that's really enough of an advantage to make up for the less utility.

Solid though, I'd play that. I'm tempted to compare it to a Dervish Dance version of my build.

Forgot a Cloak on my guy, though in hindsight I could just drop the RoP and rely on Shield of Faith like my Way of the Wicked Inquisitor did. Or drop the weapon and use GMW like you are.


Rynjin wrote:
Ehhh, I don't think that's really enough of an advantage to make up for the less utility.

How does your guy have more utility? You have +3 skill points, which are probably going to be used on Knowledge checks... my guy can use Lore Keeper to get an automatical 32 on a knowledge check to identify an enemy while flurrying.

I know you have empowered heals... but so does my guy! Plus he has a whole pool of Fervor and massive Acrobatics and movement speed.

Am I missing something? I mean, I know you have Track, Discern Lies, Detect Alignment, but I think it evens out, considering my guy has more damage and prepared spellcasting for extra flexibility.

EDIT: What I'm trying to say Rynjin, here, is that you are too quick to knock classes because they don't deliver what you want. That's not to say they are not extremely viable and actually might be better than other options.

Wanna give me something to compare against my UnMonk?


Not everyone can cast Ki Leech though...


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Secret Wizard wrote:
Rynjin wrote:
Ehhh, I don't think that's really enough of an advantage to make up for the less utility.

How does your guy have more utility? You have +3 skill points, which are probably going to be used on Knowledge checks... my guy can use Lore Keeper to get an automatical 32 on a knowledge check to identify an enemy while flurrying.

I know you have empowered heals... but so does my guy! Plus he has a whole pool of Fervor and massive Acrobatics and movement speed.

Am I missing something? I mean, I know you have Track, Discern Lies, Detect Alignment, but I think it evens out, considering my guy has more damage and prepared spellcasting for extra flexibility.

3 DPR isn't really a considerable advantage.

The Inquisitor list is also better tailored to 6th level casting, with useful spells coming in at lower levels, and fun stuff like Litany of Escape, Bloodhound, and Countless Eyes you don't have access to.

The Preacher archetype lets me protect allies from crits and such, and re-roll my own attacks if they're too low.

The Healing Domain thing, like I said, is basically a placeholder. Replace it with the Conversion Inquisition or something similar and it gets better. My guy has 4 extra skills per level, not 3.

Judgement can also give you Fast Healing, DR, and so forth without taking extra uses.

My guy can make a Knowledge check of 29 on a 1, as a non-action an unlimited number of times per day. Vs your Swift action (which cannot be delivered as an Unarmed Strike, that's only for Touch Spells not all Touch Attacks) 32.

Secret Wizard wrote:

EDIT: What I'm trying to say Rynjin, here, is that you are too quick to knock classes because they don't deliver what you want. That's not to say they are not extremely viable and actually might be better than other options.

Wanna give me something to compare against my UnMonk?

I did say it was a solid build, and that I'd play it. It's got some neat features.

But it's not a class, as a whole, I would choose to use over an Inquisitor. That 3 extra DPR really doesn't tickle my fancy.

I never said the Warpriest wasn't viable. I said it was not as good as other options that do similar things. The Sacred Fist is an exception (one which I played briefly before it was nerfed, check the Shao Jian alias on my profile), since it's still probably the best all around "Monk", it's just that the nerf was completely unnecessary, which is what sparked this whole exchange.

That last bit I'm unclear what you're talking about. Do you mean that Warpiest there or are you planning n making an Unchained Monk?


It's actually 129 DPR, I forgot haste and weapon focus.


Secret Wizard wrote:

When flurrying, the Monk is treated to have BAB = class level, rather than 3/4 BAB.

The Sacred Fist had the ability to get flurry for the extra attacks, but it nowhere mentioned that they got BAB = class level.

Now it's explicitly clarified they don't.

Change is fine and balanced though. Try the class out.

I might be especially thick here, but I am also having a hard time with this. I assumed that you would just use the flurry numbers on the monk table when calculating the "to hit". Now I'm not sure, it seems like it is now use the table minus whatever the difference between the sacred fists BAB and class level so a 5th level sacred fist would have a flurry bonus of +1/+1? (which seems highly complicated even for this game). I often interpret things weirdly though. So what would a 5th level sacred fists attack modifier be?


+1/+1 is correct.


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So I'm a bit confused, what exactly do you think my problem with the Unchained Monk is?

It's not damage output, that's for sure.


Secret Wizard wrote:
+1/+1 is correct.

Egads. I guess that would be the same as if TWFing though it seems unnecessarily complicated (-1 to -1/-1 @1st; -2 to +3/+3 @5th; -3 to +7/+7/+2/+2 @ 9th...)


I have no clue what you hate about the Unchained Monk. It deals amazing damage, has excellent defences, the best mobility, and excellent utility.

eakratz wrote:
Secret Wizard wrote:
+1/+1 is correct.
Egads. I guess that would be the same as if TWFing though it seems unnecessarily complicated (-1 to -1/-1 @1st; -2 to +3/+3 @5th; -3 to +7/+7/+2/+2 @ 9th...)

Not necessarily. It's free feats, free Double Slice, and you only need one weapon enchanted rather than one in each hand.


Secret Wizard wrote:
STR 10 / DEX 26 / CON 20 / INT 12 / WIS 14 / CHA 7

Warpriest 10 / Urban Barbarian 2

Traits Fate's Favored, Adopted (Orc - Tusked) or Adopted (Goblin - Mother's Teeth)
Deity's Favored Weapon Unarmed Strike

Race Human Two-Weapon Fighting
CL1 Brb1 Weapon Finesse
CL2 Brb2 Animal Fury (If Tusked or Mother's Teeth isn't allowed)
CL3 Wrp1 Feral Combat Training (Bite), Weapon Focus (Bite), Improved Unarmed Strike
CL4 Wrp2
CL5 Wrp3 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Draconic Blood, Double Slice
[b]CL6 Wrp4

CL7 Wrp5 Extra Rage
CL8 Wrp6 Martial Versatility (Feral Combat Training), Improved Two-Weapon Fighting
CL9 Wrp7 Extra Rage Power - Lesser Fiend Totem
CL10 Wrp8
[b]CL11 Wrp9
Greater Two-Weapon Fighting, Greater Weapon Focus
CL12 Wrp10

Full Attack (without non-Feat buffs): +9 Unarmed / +9 Unarmed / +6 Bite / +6 Gore / +6 Claw / +6 Claw / +4 Unarmed / +4 Unarmed / -1 Unarmed

---

9 Attacks, at 1d10 + Dex damage each (you have an Agile AOMF), each getting buffed from Divine Power, Sacred Weapon, etc.

And because of how FCT works, when you target yourself with Sacred Weapon et all, your Natural Weapons also receive the same pumps (meaning you don't eat up extra rounds of Sacred Weapon, either... gotta love loopholes).

This is the reason I didn't have a terrible problem with the Sacred Fist as it was - the base Warpriest focused on Natural Weapons could match/exceed it for damage and accuracy.


That build is cheese in so many levels it made me lactose intolerant.

It's also illegal.


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The issue we are dancing around here is that the inquisitor is a little OP. It gets good spells, a lot of good abilities, interesting feats and good skills and they all work together very well. The class doesn't have a true weakness, just things it's not quite as good at. If it hadn't come in the same book as the summoner, its OP quality would have been noticed more.

Meanwhile the warpriest gets ok spells, good feats, few skills and a bunch of abilities that don't work together very well. Fervor and a handful of OP blessings are all that keep the class afloat, while everything else In the class kind of floats around not doing anything.


I disagree. The inquisitor is fine. Spontaneous casting is crippling. Very few feats to do anything other than hitting stuff. No mobility.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
I have no clue what you hate about the Unchained Monk. It deals amazing damage, has excellent defences, the best mobility, and excellent utility.

Not quite. The part I hate about the Unchained Monk is that it takes all of those things the Monk used to get ANYWAY...then makes them optional Ki Powers that all cost Ki to activate.

Ki Leech is a cute solution, but doesn't come online until 12th, which means you're struggling until then.

Plus it makes the disparity between unarmed and weapon combat EVEN LARGER than the Core Monk.

Melkiador wrote:
The issue we are dancing around here is that the inquisitor is a little OP. It gets good spells, a lot of good abilities, interesting feats and good skills and they all work together very well.

...Which is called "good design". All classes should be made this way.


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Secret Wizard wrote:

That build is cheese in so many levels it made me lactose intolerant.

It's also illegal.

How's it illegal? I mean, you can sub out Adopted entirely - just take Animal Fury as a Rage Power instead.


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Secret Wizard wrote:
I disagree. The inquisitor is fine. Spontaneous casting is crippling.

Not really. There are only a few spells you need. Everything else can be done via scroll.

Quote:
Very few feats to do anything other than hitting stuff.

You get a bonus teamwork feat every 3 levels and a class ability to make them almost always on. As for things to do other than hitting stuff, 6+ skill points and various class abilities.

Quote:
No mobility.

Proficiency in most ranged weapons so not really an issue. But various teamwork feats to improve your mobility.

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