So I take it that Medium is more basic but is capable of greater specialization but is limited to that 1 extremely focused role with a number of penalties. The occultist meanwhile has more baseline utility and can change roles more easily but to a far lesser degree (and no rogue/cleric coverage)?
Why would you take one over the other?
The medium is capable of much more versatility from day to day (especially on reaching 15th level, with Trance of Three) and can provide an excellent boost to the rest of the party with Shared Seance at 2nd level (especially if channeling a marshal spirit for the day, allowing each participant to choose their own spirit bonus). Depending on the archetype and the spirit, that versatility can be enhanced or focused; right now I'm messing around with statting up a relic channeler and it seems to be a nice mix of focus and versatility.
The occultist, on the other hand, seems to have somewhat more breadth available during the day, but rather less versatility. The class also seems to be more about dealing with outsiders than spirits. Again, archetype and implement choices can change things; the battle host looks like it might be a potential choice for a combat-focused occultist.
Occultist is terrifying if given time to buff. It's possible to do some silly things right out the gate, such as using Magic Weapon + Legacy Weapon to have Bane (whatever you're fighting right now) and a respectable set of combat stats. What's the average bugbear got to counter an elf that's shooting for 1d8+2d6+3 with a standard longbow in an opening adventure?
The answer is not bloody much. If you've got a decent stealth bonus, you can pull that off reasonably simply because of how psychic magic is cast - you're not giving up your position like you do with arcane or divine. You might even be able to shoot from the bushes without incident.
The revised Medium is growing on me, but I'm not 100% sold on it at this point. Too many fond remembrances of the harrowed medium from the playtest. That said, the revised Medium is a godsend for PFS tables. You never have to do the "what's everyone else playing today?" dance between characters when you've got one. You just change your focus for the moment. The only downside is the stat dilution problem from being potentially quite MAD.
You think an Archer Medium is the way to go? Or should someone mix in melee or more casting focus? Battle Host a worthy trade?
Meant to say Occultist
You think an Archer Medium is the way to go? Or should someone mix in melee or more casting focus? Battle Host a worthy trade?
I think Battle Host gives up far too much versatility and makes you sunder-bait. The fact that your UMD bonus only applies to weapons/armor/shields is ridiculous, exempting all other issues.
Archery is one valid path. I think it's particularly strong at lower levels. As I said, I think it's kind of terrifying, really, but only if you have the setup time. Once you have your +1 composite longbow with appropriate strength rating, things get a bit easier as you cut it down to 1 standard of buffing instead of 2 and you have more Mental Focus to spread around. It's also totally reasonable to slam all your MF into 2 transmutation implements for double stat boosts, but you have to contend with fewer Banes per day if you split like that. By 4th level, that should be a non-issue, though. The painful bit here is that there's a real need for Extra Mental Focus as a feat, but no space whatsoever in an archery build.
Melee is viable, too, and for the same reasons, but you have a very MAD character if you do that and you'll want at least 1 abjuration implement early on. Battle Host is best with melee, where you can snag a mwk full plate at character creation and stand in front of things with the best of 'em.
Lots of build options on the Occultist that are very viable. I just embrace that 2/3 caster-ness of the class a bit more.
Occultist is awesome and lets itself more to optimization. I've been describing it to my players as the 3.5 Artificer. It can be really pretty strong offensively, as Serisan has been demonstrating, and it's also really, really tanky with certain choices (like Transmutation for Dex, and Abjuration for saves, and Illusion for almost-always-up concealment).
At the same time, it can give those resonant powers to other characters, which is great (unless I'm reading it wrong). One thing I've been doing on some tests is using that Efficient Shift or whatever feat that lets you shift points between implements twice per day without any loss. The character jacks up one implement to get a high resonant bonus, shifts the points to one that has more useful abilities attached to it but with only a moderately useful resonant ability (like Conjuration), and then hands off the high-resonance implement.
Medium has the odd drawback of the favored locations, which I'll probably waive. As written, though, it has issues with optimizing or making a specific "build" unlike the Occultist since you're totally at the mercy of the DM or campaign. It also should've gotten a way to quick-swap spirits 1/day or something at low levels (maybe around 2 or 3), but incurring some sort of influence penalty to allow for more versatility throughout the day.
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I think Battle Host gives up far too much versatility and makes you sunder-bait.Sunder-bait... except for this part: "The bonded item is immune to the broken condition for as long as the battle host lives."
There might be some confusion as to whether it can gain the "destroyed" condition without being "broken", though.
I'm really curious how that bit works with Firearms. Goodbye to misfire.
The bigger danger for Battle Host is simply losing the item.
One thing I've been doing on some tests is using that Efficient Shift or whatever feat that lets you shift points between implements twice per day without any loss. The character jacks up one implement to get a high resonant bonus, shifts the points to one that has more useful abilities attached to it but with only a moderately useful resonant ability (like Conjuration), and then hands off the high-resonance implement.This doesn't work: shifting Focus out of an implement using Focus Shift reduces the effect of that implement's Resonant Power based on how much Focus you leave in it, but it doesn't increase the Resonant Power of the implement you put it into. They did this specifically to avoid people doing what you're (incorrectly) doing.
True enough, I've since re-read it. I knew it didn't increase the RP of the one you shifted to but I missed the part about it reducing RP on the first implement.
It's easy to make a great offensive occultist using melee or ranged weapons, especially since Transmutation boosts a physical score higher than a belt can and you've got a great weapon buff in Legacy Weapon. Battle Host does lose 2 implements at levels 1 and 6, which means it only has 2 implements (and thus 2 spels known per level) until Level 10. You're more limited in what you can do out of combat as well. However, you gain a few bonus feats, a Spiritual Weapon sla, and at level 6 you can further enhance your chosen physical score. It's very strong for a melee occultist, who can pump strength like there's no tomorrow.
I must confess I still don't exactly know how the medium is meant to work. I was kinda thrown off by the Taboos, which seem to be very restrictive by forcing your character to act in a certain way or risk becoming an NPC. Seems needlessly harsh to me.
I must confess I still don't exactly know how the medium is meant to work. I was kinda thrown off by the Taboos, which seem to be very restrictive by forcing your character to act in a certain way or risk becoming an NPC. Seems needlessly harsh to me.The taboos are optional, though?
They are, yeah, and I've had to clarify this for my players too: you only pick one taboo. You don't read that whole Suggested Taboo paragraph for a spirit and take all of it on, and the DM can make different taboos too, depending on the spirit.
Spirit Surge is pretty cool. If it plays anything like Inspiration then I think a lot of Mediums will frequently be taking taboos and riding the line between vessel and spirit puppet pretty often.
I must confess I still don't exactly know how the medium is meant to work. I was kinda thrown off by the Taboos, which seem to be very restrictive by forcing your character to act in a certain way or risk becoming an NPC. Seems needlessly harsh to me.The taboos are optional, though?They are, yeah, and I've had to clarify this for my players too: you only pick one taboo. You don't read that whole Suggested Taboo paragraph for a spirit and take all of it on, and the DM can make different taboos too, depending on the spirit.
Spirit Surge is pretty cool. If it plays anything like Inspiration then I think a lot of Mediums will frequently be taking taboos and riding the line between vessel and spirit puppet pretty often.
It's better than inspiration. Inspiration is after the roll but before the results. Spirit surge is after a fail you can add the roll, so you NEVER waste it by using it when you didn't need to.
I must confess I still don't exactly know how the medium is meant to work. I was kinda thrown off by the Taboos, which seem to be very restrictive by forcing your character to act in a certain way or risk becoming an NPC. Seems needlessly harsh to me.The taboos are optional, though?They are, yeah, and I've had to clarify this for my players too: you only pick one taboo. You don't read that whole Suggested Taboo paragraph for a spirit and take all of it on, and the DM can make different taboos too, depending on the spirit.
Spirit Surge is pretty cool. If it plays anything like Inspiration then I think a lot of Mediums will frequently be taking taboos and riding the line between vessel and spirit puppet pretty often.
I know you only pick one taboo, but many of them are very restrictive - you have to join whichever side pays better? You have to answer any question asked, and you must tell the whole truth? You must make a save against every spell, helpful or not? At least if you break the paladin code you get to keep your character sheet, but becoming an NPC for a whole day for not revealing your group's weaknesses and plans to the enemy when asked is way too much.
You can decide to not take taboos at all, but then you don't get some extra benefits.
You can decide to not take taboos at all, but then you don't get some extra benefits.
...huh. You're right. I did not notice that. I can accept optional restrictions.
It's better than inspiration. Inspiration is after the roll but before the results. Spirit surge is after a fail you can add the roll, so you NEVER waste it by using it when you didn't need to.I must confess I still don't exactly know how the medium is meant to work. I was kinda thrown off by the Taboos, which seem to be very restrictive by forcing your character to act in a certain way or risk becoming an NPC. Seems needlessly harsh to me.The taboos are optional, though?They are, yeah, and I've had to clarify this for my players too: you only pick one taboo. You don't read that whole Suggested Taboo paragraph for a spirit and take all of it on, and the DM can make different taboos too, depending on the spirit.
Spirit Surge is pretty cool. If it plays anything like Inspiration then I think a lot of Mediums will frequently be taking taboos and riding the line between vessel and spirit puppet pretty often.
In some ways. Inspiration works on any roll, can be a d8, and can be used all day depending on the skill. SS only works on a subset of rolls. I think they balance out, though I've only seen Inspiration in practice.
I'm still trying to figure out if the Illusion resonant power means I can try to stealth any time I have it up. If yes, that's insanely good. My spells are silent, and I can buff myself like a monster before I open things up on whatever I'm trying to kill.
What do you mean by "try to stealth"? You can always try! But I don't see how a miss chance helps you out until you hit level 18 and are invisible.
I'm still trying to figure out if the Illusion resonant power means I can try to stealth any time I have it up. If yes, that's insanely good. My spells are silent, and I can buff myself like a monster before I open things up on whatever I'm trying to kill.What do you mean by "try to stealth"? You can always try! But I don't see how a miss chance helps you out until you hit level 18 and are invisible.
If you end your turn in cover or concealment you can maintain stealth.
You realize that you'd likely have to break your taboo multiple times to gain enough to become an NPC, right?
It is better then that breaking your taboo only gains influence the first time you break it.
With regards to the original question.
Occultist has a good range of flexibility with regards to build as a class, as people have demonstrated here: I've even heard of a few more caster-y builds floating around elsewhere (there's a Harry Dresden one that looks fun that caught my eye). However, you do kind of lock yourself in to your options, and your (relatively) shallow pool of spells and the focus powers you choose can severely limit your utility.
Medium has a little more flexibility from day to day, if one is adventuring in an urban climate or does away with the required seance locations (I believe one of the writers also said something about playing a little fast-and-loose with the requirements; the example used was turning a normal forest glen into a "practice yard" for the champion legend by sparring with an ally in it or otherwise simple weapons practice: shooting targets or so forth). The penalties can be mitigated with clever roleplaying and archetypes, and with flexible spell selection from day-to-day with Archmage and Heirophant they can be a decent patch caster if the party needs to deal with a specific kind of problem or needs access to certain spells.
Tl;DR: Occultist is more flexible as a class concept but Medium moreso as a character. As to why I'd pick one over the other...depends on my character concept, what the group needs, etc. As a tank or more invested caster, Occultist. As a more flexible/skill monkey/specific champion build character, Medium.
Doesn't the Medium have the major drawback of FINDING the exact location to call specific spirits? If you don't have access to a location, you can't call a spirit.
An Occultist needs specific items, but those can be cheap, let alone non-magical. Sure, the items can be lost, broken or taken away from you, but still, you can replace them easily.
A Medium without access to a battlefield... can't access the spirit related to it. From what I could read, the Kami Channeler Medium archetype can basically set up a huge garden with specific decorations (a tree, a river, a gate, etc) and call his spirits on one single location. If he sets up such a garden in a demi-plane accessible via a portal using a device, then each day he can step into that plane, call every spirit he needs and return.
Doesn't the Medium have the major drawback of FINDING the exact location to call specific spirits? If you don't have access to a location, you can't call a spirit.I'd go so far as to say that effectively makes the Medium unplayable at lower levels. Let's say you're exploring a dungeon - a fairly normal thing to do for an adventurer.
- You can't channel the Archmage: there are no libraries, schools or redoubts, and probably no "unusual magic" areas either.
- You probably can't channel the Champion - no arenas, no battlefields and no practice fields. You might create your own "place of violence" though, but then you'd have to spend the night right there.
- No Guardian spirit: no forts, gates, keeps or cities.
- The Hierophant might be doable: you're not likely to find shrines, churches or groves, but you could bring your own portable altar. Provided your GM allows it - it's not really a special place by plonking down some elaborate table.
- Council rooms? Stages? Theatres? Throne rooms? Not in any dungeon my adventures took me. So no Marshal Spirit.
- Trickster then? "Alleys, mazes, taverns, trap-filled locations." Well, it seems you're stuck with this one - provided this dungeon has a lot of traps, or is a maze.
Doesn't the Medium have the major drawback of FINDING the exact location to call specific spirits? If you don't have access to a location, you can't call a spirit.I'd go so far as to say that effectively makes the Medium unplayable at lower levels. Let's say you're exploring a dungeon - a fairly normal thing to do for an adventurer.
- You can't channel the Archmage: there are no libraries, schools or redoubts, and probably no "unusual magic" areas either.
- You probably can't channel the Champion - no arenas, no battlefields and no practice fields. You might create your own "place of violence" though, but then you'd have to spend the night right there.
- No Guardian spirit: no forts, gates, keeps or cities.
- The Hierophant might be doable: you're not likely to find shrines, churches or groves, but you could bring your own portable altar. Provided your GM allows it - it's not really a special place by plonking down some elaborate table.
- Council rooms? Stages? Theatres? Throne rooms? Not in any dungeon my adventures took me. So no Marshal Spirit.
"At lower levels"? More like "At any levels"...
You basically needs to teleport, or stay in a metropolis in order to access every spirit. A huge city will have a library, an arena, a gate, a church, a theater and a tavern.
A Kami Medium can build a garden with a crossroad, a bonsai tree, a pond and a gate. Only thing missing is a storm... which an Orb of Storms can provide... unless you build in an automatic weather system. This garden can be place in a demi-plane, accessible only by you.
Ok, fine, you'll need a truckload of magic items to create this, but still, ONCE you have this garden, a Kami Medium can go in this garden and call all spirits.
The Occultist's implements go as follow:
Implements don’t need to be magic items, and nonmagical implements don’t take up a magic item slot even if they’re worn. Implements that are not magic items are often of some historical value or of personal significance to the occultist, such as the finger bone of a saint, the broken scepter of a long-dead king, the skull of a mentor’s familiar, or the glass eye of an uncanny ancestor.
They don't have to be magic items, so that's one problem taken cared of... not that it's not a bad thing to have magic items as implements though. As for "historical" value, players can make up whatever to want to let their GMs accept them.
Technically there can be the expectation that the party rarely sleeps inside the dungeon.
Mark clarified or a FAQ or something that the list was an example, that you could kinda find spirits anywhere and that having a few books or your friends to a practice fight were enough to make it count for the spirits.
If you can't figureout a way to match a spirit to your location I'd be surprised.
If you can't figureout a way to match a spirit to your location I'd be surprised.
I'd be more surprised if you managed to find the exact spirit you wanted consistently.
The location thing is a big turn off to me.
If you can't figureout a way to match a spirit to your location I'd be surprised.I'd be more surprised if you managed to find the exact spirit you wanted consistently.
The location thing is a big turn off to me.
I would expect you could if you don't mind pulling out contrived BS and playing "mother may I" with the GM, so long as the GM takes pity and plays ball.
You realize that you'd likely have to break your taboo multiple times to gain enough to become an NPC, right?It is better then that breaking your taboo only gains influence the first time you break it.
...not by my reading.
if he breaks the taboo for any reason, he takes a –2 penalty on attack rolls, damage rolls, ability checks, skill checks, and saving throws for 1 hour and his spirit gains 1 point of influence over him. If the medium continues violating the taboo while taking the penalty, the duration of the penalty extends, but the spirit doesn't gain additional influence over the medium.
During the hour+ that you take the penalty, yes, you don't incure further influence. But if the time lapse expires and you break the taboo again? That's another point of influence, and another hour+ of penalties. So you can keep braking the same taboo every 59 minutes, to incur only a single point for that, but you'd spend the whole day with basicly 2 negative levels.