Is this weapon balanced?
I know exotic weapon proficiencies are generally crappy, but this one is awesome for purely flavor purposes, so says I.
Chain Flail
1d10 19-20 x2 range: 10ftSpecial: Trip, disarm
The chain flail is essentially a heavy flail on a longer chain, allowing it to be thrown up to fifteen feet. The chain can be retracted as a move action
Yup, it's a throwing flail, but it has a maximum range of 15 feet. So instead of being a reach weapon that can be used on adjacent enemies, it's a melee weapon that can be thrown at enemies without needing to run after it!
Not as cool as a rat flail, but I'm only human.
RAW this weapon is not balanced, giving it two special attacks, reach, d10 damage, and 19-20 crit range.. and throwing.. is a bit beyond what is normally possible. The way it tends to work, Martial Items tend to have 1 bonus area over Simple weapons, Exotic weapons tend to have 1-2 over martial weapons.
To make it "balanced" by RAW you'd need to remove throwing and change the crit range to 20x2.
It doesn't have reach. And I am not sure if I need to add language for this, but trip anddisarm can only be used when wielded as a melee weapon.
You put 10ft reach in your weapon description.
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10ft range, not reach. Can't full attack past 5ft.It doesn't have reach. And I am not sure if I need to add language for this, but trip anddisarm can only be used when wielded as a melee weapon.You put 10ft reach in your weapon description.
What do you mean 10ft range.. like a throwing dagger? o.O
It would be difficult to get the needed velocity on the weapon in order to make it a useful ranged weapon, it sounds like you're looking more for a chain weapon that has reach then a thrown weapon. They don't really make the type of weapon you're asking for.
Sample Exotic thrown weapons..
Boomerang 1d6 20x2 30ft range (If miss, then weapon returns)
Bola 1d4 20x2 10ft range (Trip, Nonlethal)
Sample Martial Thrown weapons
Chakrum 1d8 20x2 30ft range
Pilum 1d8 20x2 20ft range
...
A Balanced weapon in the way that you're looking would be able to..
1d6 damage 10ft range + Trip..
or
1d10 damage, 10ft range
or
1d8 damage 19-20x2, 10ft range..
Something along those lines would be acceptable. It being attached to a chain is a special property, and would function better as a melee weapon.
Functioning off of the same math, a weapon that it seems like you'd enjoy a bit more..
Exotic Melee Weapon
Chain-Flail (or whatever you want to call it)
1d10 Bludgeoning, 20x2 Crit, Disarm/Trip/Reach
edit: This is a 2 handed melee weapon.
Aklys 5 gp 1d4 1d6 ×2 20 ft. 2 lbs. B trip
Also, through further investigation.. the Dwarven Dorn Dergar is a 10ft chain that does 1d10 x2 damage with reach.. it's special property is that you can swap between reach and no reach as a move action. It's the weapon you were thinking of, though a little bit lack-luster compared to what you were suggesting.
If you were attempting to do this in a completely homebrew setting.. could design the weapon almost exactly like you suggested, but require 3 proficiency feats to actually use it properly.. -4 to attack rolls per feat missing. I know it sounds harsh, but I'd put it in the same category as Sword-Chucks. :P
If you can find stats for a harpoon, that sounds close to your goal.
Gotta be honest, not really seeing that part as unbalanced. I just took the heavy flail (martial weapon) and put a chain on it. Surely that much is not unbalanced, not for a feat. I guess that I meant to ask what kind of shenaneganz players might get up to, potential abuses that would make it the goto weapon.
I mean, you couldn't utelize the trip or disarm features when thrown, it would just be a flying ball on a chain that you would hold onto, but within melee range, you would wield it as if it were a heavy flail.
Heavy Flail does not have a range nor does it have reach. On top of that, you're basically asking for a thrown weapon that you can pull back using the chain.
Thrown weapon mechanics would allow you to get the flail out to a 50 ft distance, which I doubt is something that you want to let happen. Adding Reach to the weapon is a pretty significant change as well. Rather then simply saying you're slapping a chain onto a heavy flail, take a look at the existing exotic weapons and weapons that function in similar ways to what you're looking to do.
As a pretty straight-forward ruling.. the Dorn Dergar is pretty much what you were looking for in description.. If you wanted it to have Disarm/Trip as possible maneuvers then one of two things would need to happen. 1) The Reach would need to be removed, or 2) The option to switch between 5 and 10 foot reach as a move action would need to be removed.
The other option would be to add a second feat to take to have all of those effects. If you also want to increase the crit range on that weapon then it's another feat.. etc. Weapons are pretty straight-forward with their creation mechanics.
I like it.
It's basically the Morningstar from the Castlevania games. Always wanted that for a weapon in one of these games....
The way you describe it, it has very little force behind it, and it would have to be weighty to do any damage with it at all, which would increase the amount of force you would need to throw it with.
With that description it sounds something along the lines of
1d6-1d8 x2 5ft range increment, and special of as a move action can retrieve the weapon by pulling back on the chain.
Otherwise, the weapon will involve some form of twirlling of the chain, and would function more as a whip/reach weapon then as a thrown weapon. They happen to use a very similar weapon in several martial arts.
If you want it to be any more powerful then that, then it's going to need to be magically propelled in some manner, or enchanted to be more effective in some way.
NoThe way you describe it, it has very little force behind it, and it would have to be weighty to do any damage with it at all, which would increase the amount of force you would need to throw it with.
With that description it sounds something along the lines of
1d6-1d8 x2 5ft range increment, and special of as a move action can retrieve the weapon by pulling back on the chain.
Otherwise, the weapon will involve some form of twirlling of the chain, and would function more as a whip/reach weapon then as a thrown weapon. They happen to use a very similar weapon in several martial arts.
If you want it to be any more powerful then that, then it's going to need to be magically propelled in some manner, or enchanted to be more effective in some way.
Then either
a) DM the game yourself and add whatever you want
b) Convince your DM to add whatever you want to the game..
You asked about balance with other exotic weapons.
Under the conditions that you're functioning under, it wouldn't matter if it was something inspired by a video game, or if it was a Jedi's lightsaber, or a World-Slaying Sword. When you get to the point of ignoring "balance" it really is up to DM call. If they say yes, or you're the one running it then do whatever. *shrug*
Or the all-hilarious..
"Flying Gerbil on a Stick" weapon..
Does 3d12 15-20x4, has reach and can attempt both a trip AND a disarm on a standard or full attack action as a free action. Gerbils are awesome like that. Balanced? No, not really. Will I defend your right to use it in a campaign that you DM, or defend your right to use it should your DM allow it? Hell yes. :D
Just read the entry on heavy flail. For the love of god, read it.
I've read the entry for the heavy flail, I've read it many times before today, and I read it after you posted your original concept, and I read it again after you posted specifically mentioning the heavy flail. I have no need to read it again.
Melee Weapons, Ranged Weapons, and Thrown Weapons do not compare to eachother and are not interchangeable. They get further and further from interchangeable the more you get away from Simple weapons. You can't simply slap a chain on a melee weapon and say you're gonna toss it around as an exotic weapon.
See reference about Sword-Chucks. :P
See reference about Sworud-Chucks. :PExcept the ball and chain really existed? Precursor to the flail.
The Dorn Dergar is a Ball + Chain, it's exactly what the weapon is described as. What I'm stating doesn't work that way, is the fact that simply attaching a chain to the back of a heavy flail and tossing it around calling it an exotic weapon does not mean (Same stats as a Heavy Flail, but with a thrown range, and no penalties).
Dorn Dergar is a ball and chain, it does not normally give a trip attempt, it does not crit on a 19-20, and it does not allow you to throw it 50 ft.
Yes! That was my inspiration.I like it.
It's basically the Morningstar from the Castlevania games. Always wanted that for a weapon in one of these games....
I can't find 'heavy flail'
I see Regular flail... D8 damage, 20x2 crit Disarm trip....
Oh there it is, 2-handed weapons... D10 damage 19-20 x2 crit, Disarm trip...
Honestly I don't think I'd use 2 handed in the construction of this weapon... I'm picturing the belmont whip as a one handed weapon.
Whip D3 x2, Disarm, nonlethal,Reach (10') trip....
and I see Spiked chain.... 2d4, x2 disarm, trip...
I'd try to smush the flail, spiked chain and whip all together.
Call it Chain flail... or Whip Flail...
Damage 2d4, x2crit, reach 10' (but like the whip, you don't threaten the extra squares for AoO) and of course Disarm, trip...
I wish they had a 'weighted chain' as that would be pretty similiar... but I don't see that here. Get it enchanted to 'flaming' or 'Holy' or something equally fun.
http://www.d20pfsrd.com/equipment---final/weapons/weapon-descriptions/meteo r-hammer
You are basically creating that.. cept it loses the double weapon property and ac property..
Seriously.. I love how people jumped on it and tried using the worst exotic weapons and tried to say that it should be equal to a boomerang.
Meteor Hammer would also work, wouldn't need too much of a leap to allow disarming with the weapon, preferably I'd reduce the die type to d8 or reduce the crit to 20x2, add the disarm property to the weapon, and state that as a move action it can attack in the 5 foot range as well. That way it would at least be a bit more flexible. If you don't want the ability to swap between 5' and 10' ranges then keep in mind that you'll be a bit more limited in your target selection and really have to amp up the mobility of the user.
And no, I only stated that it would be around the effectiveness of a Boomerang/Chakram if he insisted on making it a "Thrown Weapon" which would enable the weapon to reach distances of 50+ ft. For something like that, then yes it does have limitations.
I also stated that I approved of anyone making a houserule weapon that didn't fit within the traditional framework of current weapons. :P
Well you know, its like when I brought up the butterfly knife, I'm told it doesn't suck its for flavor and exotic shouldn't mean better, it should mean exotic.
I'm quite certain there are tons of people who would jump at the chance to have a feat for being a red head.
I really do think you should make the weapon a reach weapon with a caviat that you can only make a single attack as a standard action and draw the weapon back as a move, setting the reach to however far you want it to go out.
If you state the weapon can be thrown with no penalty up to 15 ft that means the weapon has a 15ft range increment, which means that if someone were to ignore the chain they could throw it up to 5 increments getting it out to 75'. At the same time, the argument could also be there that if the weapon is so aerodynamic removing the chain could easily net it an extra 5' range.. and get it out to 100'.
That's just going by standard rules. I know you're saying "ZOMG IT'S NOT A DAMN REACH WEAPON" but the way you're describing it, it really is.
OP: Seems fair to me. It's a good example of exotic weapon - slightly better, a cool feature, nothing gamebreaking.
Boomerang in APG does not come back. And use Boomerang as a comparison is... fanciful, we can say.
@Gloom: "one bonus area compared to other weapons"
Does falcata is fine because is just a x1 multiplier more, and nothing else? :D
Imho is not that simple.
OP: Seems fair to me. It's a good example of exotic weapon - slightly better, a cool feature, nothing gamebreaking.
Boomerang in APG does not come back. And use Boomerang as a comparisone is... fanciful, we can say.
@Gloom: "one bonus area compared to other weapons"
Does falcata is fine because is just a x1 multiplier more, and nothing else? :D
Imho is not that simple.
@Kaiyanwang
From what I've seen, increasing the crit multiplier of a weapon tends to be equal to about two other increases on the weapon. Damage rarely gets increased by more then one step. Crit range rarely gets improved more then one step. etc..Just observations that I've noticed.
IMHO your observation is not complete. The multiplier increase must be counted for each point of threat range. Hence you see the weapon gaining "4" instead of 2.
Just observation, to point out that is difficult to compare to exotics because tend to be useless or broken.
The OP one is fine, and IMHO better than most of those written in books :/
Oh, I don't disagree. I was simply pointing out that there could be a slight flaw in the weapon if he does not limit the range or change it to a weapon with reach.
Melee weapons tend to be much stronger then every thrown weapon in the game, and making it a thrown weapon with 10' increment immediately gives it a theoretical range of 50' should the wielder desire it.
It seemed like he wanted to cap the range at 15', and have that at no penalty. For that it would basically be a modified reach weapon.
you pull back it as a move action. Is reach 1/round, with abig drawback in the action economy in the subsequent round.
I dare to say that perhaps is too weak.
you retrat it as a move action. Is reach 1/round, with abig drawback in the action economy in the subsequent round.
Which is exactly what I was suggesting it be. The OP specifically was against it and declared that it was not a reach weapon but a thrown weapon.
Which is why when comparing the stats to any other thrown weapon currently printed, it is exceedingly powerful.
My point is that it is a reach weapon with "special" rule that only allows one attack out to 15' range to which it needs to be retrieved as a move action.
I really do think you should make the weapon a reach weapon with a caviat that you can only make a single attack as a standard action and draw the weapon back as a move, setting the reach to however far you want it to go out.
If you state the weapon can be thrown with no penalty up to 15 ft that means the weapon has a 15ft range increment, which means that if someone were to ignore the chain they could throw it up to 5 increments getting it out to 75'. At the same time, the argument could also be there that if the weapon is so aerodynamic removing the chain could easily net it an extra 5' range.. and get it out to 100'.
That's just going by standard rules. I know you're saying "ZOMG IT'S NOT A DAMN REACH WEAPON" but the way you're describing it, it really is.
Is it that hard to comprehend what Ironicdisaster wants? It's not broken, it's not too strong; in fact, it's kind of lackluster compared to options that DO have reach.
You say "If you state it can be thrown with no penalty up to 15 ft that means it has a 15ft range increment" but that's simply not true. Ironicdisaster is describing the exact mechanics of his weapon. It can be thrown up to 15 ft away. It can't go beyond that because it's attached to something you're holding. You could throw the whole thing as a thrown melee weapon (with a penalty), but that's the case for anything.
You say it "really is" a reach weapon, but it's not, because reach weapons have the reach mechanic. This doesn't. This is what this has:
- You can make one attack at 15ft range as a standard action.
- When you do, you use your Dex mod to hit, not your Str mod, because it's a ranged attack.
- You don't threaten beyond 5ft.
- You provoke AoOs for throwing it, unlike attacking with a reach melee weapon.
Once per turn, if it's in your hand, as a standard action you can hit a target 15ft away as a ranged attack. That's the mechanic. It's not reach. It's not a 15-ft range increment. It's exactly what Ironicdisaster said it was.
Plenty of weapons have their own specific rules. Rapiers don't add extra damage when wielded two-handed. Cestuses allow you to hold things, but not to manipulate things, with the hand on which they're worn. Not every mechanic on a weapon is a streamlined keyword, and Ironicdisaster's 15-ft-throw isn't a weapon with reach or a range increment.
I don't know how balanced what he's proposing is. He doesn't either, which is why he made the thread. But instead of providing playtest input, you're busy armchairing that his weapon has mechanical advantages it doesn't have. You give it abilities he doesn't want it to have, and then you say those abilities are broken.
Could we please just focus on the actual weapon at hand?
As for complaints that "at 15 ft. you're not going to deal much damage" ... so if I throw a dagger at a target within its first range increment, it should deal less damage? Also, if an exotic weapon is tricky to use, that makes perfect sense: it's exotic and you've undergone special training in order to wield it. Anyone else will get a -4 penalty when trying to throw their heavy flail 15 ft. The system works.
you retrat it as a move action. Is reach 1/round, with abig drawback in the action economy in the subsequent round.
Which is exactly what I was suggesting it be. The OP specifically was against it and declared that it was not a reach weapon but a thrown weapon.
Which is why when comparing the stats to any other thrown weapon currently printed, it is exceedingly powerful.
My point is that it is a reach weapon with "special" rule that only allows one attack out to 15' range to which it needs to be retrieved as a move action.
What about a swift action for the pull back? this would allow two attacks at BAB +6.
Its range incriment is 10ft, not 15. If you throw it 15 feet, it's at a -1 penalty...
Also, it's a melee weapon.
For ruling purposes you may want to instead write
"Special: This weapon can be thrown at a distance of 10' with no penalty or up to 15' at a -1 penalty. It can be retrieved by spending a move action to pull it back."
Or something along those lines. If you want it to take less time, feel free to update it accordingly. Just going straight by the rules "Range Increment" of any type indicates it's a ranged weapon or thrown weapon. A Thrown Weapon can be thrown up to 5x it's range increment at a -2 per increment past the first, and Ranged Weapons can usually be fired at up to 10x their range increment.
I'm only specific about the terminology to prevent abuse by players. I don't care if it's attached to a chain, a rope, or some other tether that the player holds. If the weapon is slated as a "Thrown Weapon" with a Range Increment of any amount, the argument will always be there as to why they can't simply remove the tether and throw it normally.
Throwing Dagger, Axe, Hammer, Etc.. are all Melee Weapons classified as Thrown Weapons and can be used in both, so saying you're classifying it as a melee weapon and giving it a "range increment" doesn't help the argument.
How does this sound for your weapon?
Chain Flail
This weapon looks like an ordinary heavy flail, except that there is button on the bottom of the handle. When the button is pressed the chain connecting to the round iron ball is extended, and can be used at a distance.
Chain Flail:1d10 19-20 x2
Special: As a free action, and provoking attack of opportunity, the attacker can extend the chain so that the end of the chain flail can be thrown. When doing so, the range it can be thrown is 10ft up to 15ft at a -1 penalty. Throwing the end of the chain flail can have it impact the target, disarm them, or trip them. Because of the weight from the chain being extended, you can't attack with the chain flail as a reach weapon. The chain can be retracted as a move action.
Given the way he described it, the only change that I'd make to it is that I'd let it Disarm/Trip while in melee and not at range instead of as you suggested of being able to Disarm/Trip at range and not melee.
Otherwise, that weapon is pretty much spot on.